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Shield of Swings states that the player can choose to reduce his damage by one half and get a +4 shield bonus to AC and CMD for that round, with a full attack.
The feat requires Power Attack, but doesn't say that you need to use power attack to get the benefit of the feat.
My question is this.
Does the feat mean that you reduce your power attack damage bonus by 1/2? Or does it mean that you reduce all of your damage by 1/2?
If the latter, why? It seems crazy to lose damage to the point where you deal less than a sword and boarder, just to get a shield bonus that is likely inferior to anyone with a magic shield.
Does the feat mean that you reduce your power attack damage bonus by 1/2? Or does it mean that you reduce all of your damage by 1/2?
If the latter, why? It seems crazy to lose damage to the point where you deal less than a sword and boarder, just to get a shield bonus that is likely inferior to anyone with a magic shield.
All your damage. And the reason is that sword and board should still be better defensively. It's still cheaper for the fighter to take this feat than to have quickdraw as well as a magical one-handed sword and a magical shield in backup to switch with.
Shield of Swings states that the player can choose to reduce his damage by one half and get a +4 shield bonus to AC and CMD for that round, with a full attack.
The feat requires Power Attack, but doesn't say that you need to use power attack to get the benefit of the feat.
My question is this.
Does the feat mean that you reduce your power attack damage bonus by 1/2? Or does it mean that you reduce all of your damage by 1/2?
If the latter, why? It seems crazy to lose damage to the point where you deal less than a sword and boarder, just to get a shield bonus that is likely inferior to anyone with a magic shield.
The feat is obviously aimed to characters using a two handed weapon, who usually can't have high shield bonuses (and who usually choose the Power Attack feat). It may be of some use to characters with TWF, but I doubt so.
Looks like a version of Expertise for people that don't want to have Int 13, but it is worse than Expertise -it is ok, since the prereq is easy for the potential users.
However I don't know what damage is halved. If that's half of the power attack damage then it is broken, if that's half of your total damage output it's worthless imho.
However I don't know what damage is halved. If that's half of the power attack damage then it is broken, if that's half of your total damage output it's worthless imho.
I'm fairly certain it's all damage.
And it could be situationally useful. I'm not saying it's good, but could be useful when fighting lots of weak enemies.
I don't have the book yet, but going from what you've quoted it seems to me to be you cut your Total Damage by half to get a defensive bonus. I also wouldn't think you'd need to use Power Attack if you didn't want to. Although, cranking up the total damage would make the loss of half a little easier to swallow.
It would be useful for a Weapon and Shield person to 'Hold the Line' for a couple of rounds while his or her buddies get done what their doing and can either A) Lend him a hand B) Heal Him or C) Escape with their lives.
Hope some of this helps
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
Thanks for the responses guys.
My issue then is that if you take two identical fighters with say, 18 Strength (for ease of math), it is completely ridiculous to take this feat. Even compared to a shortsword shield user.
GS = 2d6+6 damage
SS = 1d6+4 damage, +2 shield AC
Using this feat, the gs user dips to 1d6+3 damage. Less than his shortsword using buddy. (who is probably using a longsword or bastard sword, but I digress) He picks up +2 AC. Until his buddy has a +2 shield or tower shield, anyways. Then he's dealing less damage and has a lower AC. Also, the shield user isn't down a feat yet. He can grab shield focus for even higher ACs, weapon focus for better attacks, etc.
Thanks for the responses guys.
My issue then is that if you take two identical fighters with say, 18 Strength (for ease of math), it is completely ridiculous to take this feat. Even compared to a shortsword shield user.
GS = 2d6+6 damage
SS = 1d6+4 damage, +2 shield AC
Using this feat, the gs user dips to 1d6+3 damage. Less than his shortsword using buddy. (who is probably using a longsword or bastard sword, but I digress) He picks up +2 AC. Until his buddy has a +2 shield or tower shield, anyways. Then he's dealing less damage and has a lower AC. Also, the shield user isn't down a feat yet. He can grab shield focus for even higher ACs, weapon focus for better attacks, etc.
Yes, the sword'n'boarder will be better defensively. That is the point of a shield, after all. The two-handed fighter is still better offensively - but he can temporarily lower his attack to get some defense (a quite decent number, even). As a two-handed fighter, you sometimes have to fight defensively. This feat makes that more effective, if nothing else.
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Thanks for the responses guys.
My issue then is that if you take two identical fighters with say, 18 Strength (for ease of math), it is completely ridiculous to take this feat. Even compared to a shortsword shield user.
GS = 2d6+6 damage
SS = 1d6+4 damage, +2 shield AC
Using this feat, the gs user dips to 1d6+3 damage. Less than his shortsword using buddy. (who is probably using a longsword or bastard sword, but I digress) He picks up +2 AC. Until his buddy has a +2 shield or tower shield, anyways. Then he's dealing less damage and has a lower AC. Also, the shield user isn't down a feat yet. He can grab shield focus for even higher ACs, weapon focus for better attacks, etc.
... So your issue is the guy with the shield is better at gaining shield bonuses and keeping damage? The Shield of Swings is for extra versatility in combat, not for an option you'll use constantly.
Bear in mind that when compared to a heavy shield user, the Shield of Swinger is getting 2AC more and 4CMD more than his shield toting buddy. Its only when the shield starts to get some pretty hefty magic on it (+3) that the AC for the shield user is higher, and he's still not getting that CMD bonus.
Also, almost every 18 strength warrior will be using power attack, so the comparison is more like 2d6+9 (1/2 damage average 8) vs 1d6+4 (average 7.5).
This is a very powerful feat at low levels, especially in a low magic game.
No Alex. My issue is that while using this feat, the sword and boarder deals more damage AND has a higher AC.
Except, as was pointed out, at low levels (or extremely low magic), where this feat is a better shield than a heavy shield with shield focus.
The magic shield isn't the only way to get a +4 shield AC anymore. Off the top of my head, there are two shield AC increasing feats, tower shields and magic vestment. The shielded fighter archetype might also increase that.
And for the sake of numeric comparisons, you need to apply the same variables consistently. If the 18 Str gs wielder uses power attack for +3 damage (divided by 2), then the 18 Str ss wielder uses power attack for +2 damage (divided by 1)
1st level power attack (non-magic weapon)
2d6+9 = 1d6+4.5 (avg 7)
1d6+6 (avg 9.5)
10th level power attack (+2 weapon, weapon specialization, weapon training 2)
2d6+21 = 1d6+9 (avg 12.5)
1d6+16 (avg 18.5)
20th level power attack (+4 weapon, greater weapon specialization, weapon training 4)
2d6+34 = 1d6+17 (avg 20.5)
1d6+26 (avg 29.5)
Combat Expertise: Deal about X% less damage with your weapon. Receive X% less damage from attacks that target AC, touch AC and CMD.
Bad things: X depends of your BAB (at least 1). Prerequisite Inteligence 13.
Shield of Swings: Deal 50% less damage with your weapon. Receive 20% less damage from attacks that target AC. Won't stack with a shield spell or magic items that give shield bonuses.
Good things: No hard prerequisites, +4 AC from the beginning.
Bad things: Your offensive output goes down far more than what you gain to defense.
Figth Defensively: Deal 20% less damage with your weapon that round. Receive 10% less damage from attacks that target AC, touch AC and CMD (15% if you have a few ranks in Acrobatics).
Seriously, a feat that decreases your average damage more than twice of what you get for defense is worthless, even for circumstancial uses.
There is no point in taking that feat when you can buy a headband of Intelligence and take Expertise, unless the GM allows you to take the feat at 1st level and discard it at level 6 i.e.
I wonder if it also halves the damage from Sneak attack, Flaming Weapons, etc..
Again, I don't think the point is to compare to a swordn'n'board damage and AC constantly. Rather, you usually deal a LOT more damage with your two-handed weapon, but if something happens that makes you need a lot of defense, fast, you now have the option to defend yourself like a nut.
Nuts are very defensive. True story.
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Seriously, a feat that decreases your average damage more than twice of what you get for defense is worthless, even for circumstancial uses.
There is no point in taking that feat when you can buy a headband of Intelligence and take Expertise, unless the GM allows you to take the feat at 1st level and discard it at level 6 i.e.I wonder if it also halves the damage from Sneak attack, Flaming Weapons, etc..
odds are you are a fighter if you take this feat (they are the ones with the feats to spare for a situational feat), in which case yes you can swap the feat out at higher levels, assuming you took it as a bonus combat feat; Fighters can swap out their bonus combat feats every four levels, a little like a Sorcerer can swap out spells.
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In our group, I'm thinking our barbarian is going to love this feat. He's a great sword wielder, and the fact that he has an INT of 7 means he will never be qualifying for Combat Expertise anytime soon if ever and with as much damage as he dishes out, I don't see him minding too much to do a little less to more than double his current ac bonuses.
Actually, I can think of anyone using TWF or a single weapon using this feat. It's one I'd consider to stack with Combat Expertise, for example, for those occasions when I really want to make my AC soar. Of course you aren't doing it to hurt the opposition, you are using it when the opposition is pretty much proof against your attacks and you want to buy time to stop them hurting you ...
Actually, I can think of anyone using TWF or a single weapon using this feat. It's one I'd consider to stack with Combat Expertise, for example, for those occasions when I really want to make my AC soar. Of course you aren't doing it to hurt the opposition, you are using it when the opposition is pretty much proof against your attacks and you want to buy time to stop them hurting you ...
That's going to be some trick, considering it only works when you take a full round attack with a two handed weapon.
Actually, I can think of anyone using TWF or a single weapon using this feat. It's one I'd consider to stack with Combat Expertise, for example, for those occasions when I really want to make my AC soar. Of course you aren't doing it to hurt the opposition, you are using it when the opposition is pretty much proof against your attacks and you want to buy time to stop them hurting you ...That's going to be some trick, considering it only works when you take a full round attack with a two handed weapon.
I don't have my copy of the APG yet ... grrr ....
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Shield of Swings (Combat)
A wild frenzy of attacks serves to bolster your defenses.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you take a full-attack action while wielding a two-handed weapon, you can choose to reduce the damage by 1/2 to gain a +4 shield bonus to AC and CMD until the beginning of your next turn. The reduction in damage applies until the beginning of your next turn.
A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.
Shield bonus to CMD? The RAI is clear, you get a +4 to your CMD, but a shield bonus to CMd do nothing.
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About Jack question:
you surely halve all the damage dealt by the weapon, magical bonuses included.
I would halve the damage from the sneak attack too, but some GM can feel differently. Check with yours.
Rider effects, like poison or the spell delivered by a spell storing weapon wouldn't be affected by shield of swings.
Shield of Swings (Combat)
A wild frenzy of attacks serves to bolster your defenses.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you take a full-attack action while wielding a two-handed weapon, you can choose to reduce the damage by 1/2 to gain a +4 shield bonus to AC and CMD until the beginning of your next turn. The reduction in damage applies until the beginning of your next turn.
A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.
Shield bonus to CMD? The RAI is clear, you get a +4 to your CMD, but a shield bonus to CMd do nothing.
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About Jack question:
you surely halve all the damage dealt by the weapon, magical bonuses included.
I would halve the damage from the sneak attack too, but some GM can feel differently. Check with yours.Rider effects, like poison or the spell delivered by a spell storing weapon wouldn't be affected by shield of swings.
I think the wording should mean "+4 shield bonus to AC" and "CMD"
I think the wording should mean "+4 shield bonus to AC" and "CMD"Exactly my point: a "+4 shield bonus to CMD" has no effect as a shield bonus isn't applied to a character CMD. So it should be something like a "+4 shield bonus to AC and +4 competence bonus to CMD".
I think this is one of those situations where the specific trumps the general. You can't normally add shield bonuses to CMD, but this specifically allows you to add this bonus as a shield bonus. I see no conflict.
Exactly my point: a "+4 shield bonus to CMD" has no effect as a shield bonus isn't applied to a character CMD. So it should be something like a "+4 shield bonus to AC and +4 competence bonus to CMD".
There is no rule saying that shield bonus cannot apply to CMD, only the rule listing AC bonus types that apply to CMD automatically without stating it explicitly. Shield bonus to AC does not apply to CMD, but shield bonus to CMD apply to CMD.
Shield Of Swings applies +4 bonus to CMD with shield bonus type so if another effect will apply shield bonus to CMD those two won't stack.