Time Stop & Enemy reflex Saves

[Xavier Michaud]

Here's the scenario;

the enemy of the players casts "Time Stop" which lasts for 3 rounds.
On his first (speeded round) he casts a "Force Cage" around the players; it lasts 18 rounds. Since there cage is in effect before the characters get to react (2 speeded rounds later), do the characters get a reflex save to get out of the area? and when?

Thanks

PS: I agree with DM saying that they would not.

[Name Violation]

what the nerf?

i never noticed forcecage got gimped to all hell. used to be 2 hours/level and no save.

now its round/level and reflex save? thatsthe crappiest thing since sliced crap...

now I'm not sure

[Garden Tool]

A pretty good question - but an easy one to answer.

Let's take a look at the RAW.

PFSRD wrote:

Time Stop

School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 9
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature's possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

Emphasis mine, of course.

The spell specifically calls out that other characters are still moving freely, and at full speed. You are simply moving so quickly that it seems that other characters are 'frozen'. Your spells do not necessarily share this magical speed; your forcecage isn't materializing any faster than it normally would. In fact, your area spells (of which forcecage is one) have to last longer than the time stop in order to have any effect at all.

tl;dr: Yes, affected opponents certainly do get a saving throw when time stop ends.

[Xavier Michaud]

Looking at the RAW, you can infer that spells act at your speed, or they would not lose some of their duration. Is that not true?

Also, if they are still moving, and spells return to standard time, wouldn't magic spells still harm them? And wouldn't they take damage in general, since they are still acting (though they effectively can't see you now).

EDIT: I know they tried to balance the spell; but there's something odd.

[azhrei_fje]

Yeah, I don't think I'd provide the reflex save.

It would be simple for the spellcaster to grab a rope and run around the group of PCs in a circle, thus preventing them from reacting freely when the time stop ends.

Now you could rule that if the wizard wants that effect, he has to spend a round (or two) doing it. But I don't really see the point in that.

Maybe a better question would be what happens with an instantaneous spell? Fireball or lightning bolt? They happen immediately and the PCs appear frozen w.r.t. the spellcaster...

[Garden Tool]

azhrei_fje wrote:

Yeah, I don't think I'd provide the reflex save.

Maybe a better question would be what happens with an instantaneous spell? Fireball or lightning bolt? They happen immediately and the PCs appear frozen w.r.t. the spellcaster...

Forgive me, but there's really no debate here.

"While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends."

So: instant spells have no effect (because their durations do not exceed time stop's duration, and area spells (like forcecage), are specifically addressed as taking their normal effects (which for forcecage includes allowing a save) when time stop's duration is over.

[Hired Sword]

Garden Tool wrote:

azhrei_fje wrote:

Yeah, I don't think I'd provide the reflex save.

Maybe a better question would be what happens with an instantaneous spell? Fireball or lightning bolt? They happen immediately and the PCs appear frozen w.r.t. the spellcaster...

There's really no debate here.

"While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends."

So: instant spells have no effect, and area spells (like forcecage), allow a save when time stop is over.

+1 for the Garden Tool

[Xavier Michaud]

My question is, why are they immune to damage. Obviously, time is not stopped for them, meaning wounds would appear, albeit they wouldn't see what caused them.

I know what the spell says; I'm asking, what is the reasoning behind it.

[knightofstyx]

Aside from game balance, think about the instantaneous amount of time a fireball would affect them. Its duration is already "instantaneous". Which means it does most of its damage in brief instance.

In order for something to actually be burnt, it needs to be in contact with the burning effect for at least a second. Time stop makes you move so fast that the instantaneous effect wouldn't even be in effect for a thousandth of a second. Such a brief exposure isn't long enough to affect anything.

That's my logic behind it. However, logic + gaming = fail. So it's probably a game balance issue.

[Lathiira]

I'd guess that the damage immunity is just to keep fights from turning into this:

Wizard: I won initiative.
GM: What are you doing?
Wizard: Time stop, quickened cloudkill with my metamagic rod, regular cloudkill, repeat next round with incendiary cloud, last round I'll use wall of fire for variety.
GM: Yup, they're dead.

Yes, high-level wizards can and will do things with time stop that make you want to cry. But with damage invulnerability factored in, PCs don't have moments that go from "you walk into the room" to "you see your god sitting on his throne, shaking his head, asking how you died".

[Xavier Michaud]

So, game balance it is. Thanks, it answers my questions.

EDIT; However, the way I see it, Force Cage (as per my original question), would appear at the beginning in an "instant" before players able to react/see what happened, sicne the spell follows the Casters accelerated speed (ie, flash fire balls that deal no damage since they don't last long enough). They shouldn't get any save.

[Garden Tool]

Well, if you're asking why from a "flavor" or "rationale" standpoint, then it seems clear that in addition to slowing down time for you, the spell also affords other creatures some degree of protection.

The spell says:

"You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature's possession."

That doesn't make any "sense" either, unless the spell is actually forbidding you from certain actions or protecting other creatures in some way.

[Garden Tool]

Xavier Michaud wrote:

EDIT; However, the way I see it, Force Cage (as per my original question), would appear at the beginning in an "instant" before players able to react/see what happened, sicne the spell follows the Casters accelerated speed (ie, flash fire balls that deal no damage since they don't last long enough). They shouldn't get any save.

They shouldn't, maybe; but they do.

This is magic that we're talking about. Maybe "area" spells actually do function differently than instant ones, or targeted ones, within the time stop.

The why is unimportant, though. The spell's wording is clear (and carefully worded to prevent exactly the kind of instant-win abuse that you're talking about).