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I have a player in my game who has taught her horse some tricks. While statting up said horse, The Bestiary said to use the Advanced Simple Template to represent a heavy horse(which what she bought).
My question is thus. The Advanced Template says to add a +4 to all ability scores. Since this boosts the horse's INT to 6, does that mean it can learn a maximum of 18 tricks. Or is the trick cap 6? If in fact there is a "trick cap". Also, I guess ultimately this could be a GM call. But I wanted to know if there was an official answer before making the call.
Thanks in advance,
Evil G.
Actually applying the advanced template to an animal does not increase it's intelligence. An animal can't have an intelligence above 2. If your horse had an intelligence of 6 it would become a magical beast.
Animal Companions are the only exception to this rule
Incorrect. There is no such rule.
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Incorrect. There is no such rule.Actually applying the advanced template to an animal does not increase it's intelligence. An animal can't have an intelligence above 2. If your horse had an intelligence of 6 it would become a magical beast.
Animal Companions are the only exception to this rule
I was thinking that was incorrect as well. Besides, the Advanced Template states +4 To all Ability Scores.
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Nope, it is correct. Check the animal creature type in the Bestiary for instance.
I did check that. It reads
"Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)."
It doesn't say that it becomes a Magical Creature when the Advanced Template is added though. So I guess the +4 to INT just wouldn't get added in. I was going to do that anyway, but I was hoping for some insight either way. I wish I could get an official ruling.
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Nope, it is correct. Check the animal creature type in the Bestiary for instance.I did check that. It reads
"Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)."
It doesn't say that it becomes a Magical Creature when the Advanced Template is added though. So I guess the +4 to INT just wouldn't get added in. I was going to do that anyway, but I was hoping for some insight either way. I wish I could get an official ruling.
Right, if you apply the advanced template to an animal, you do not increase it's intelligence. That's what I was saying.
I wasn't implying that the animal DOES become a magical beast, I was saying that you can't raise an animal's intelligence higher than 2 because it would in theory mean it's type would have to change to magical beast (such as when you cast awaken on an animal for instance)
You can add this template to an animal - it happens all the time ... You just can't raise the intelligence score when doing it
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Nope, it is correct. Check the animal creature type in the Bestiary for instance.I did check that. It reads
"Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)."
It doesn't say that it becomes a Magical Creature when the Advanced Template is added though. So I guess the +4 to INT just wouldn't get added in. I was going to do that anyway, but I was hoping for some insight either way. I wish I could get an official ruling.
Right, if you apply the advanced template to an animal, you do not increase it's intelligence. That's what I was saying.
I wasn't implying that the animal DOES become a magical beast, I was saying that you can't raise an animal's intelligence higher than 2 because it would in theory mean it's type would have to change to magical beast.
You can add this template to an animal - it happens all the time ... You just can't raise the intelligence score
Cool. Thanks for the info. I just wish there had been some clarification in the Bestiary. Either way, its all good. Thanks again for the input, Marc.
Right, if you apply the advanced template to an animal, you do not increase it's intelligence. That's what I was saying.
There is nothing to support this at all.
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There is nothing to support this at all.
Sorry but there's something, and, imo, something important :
It is clearly stated in the rules that an animal cannot have more than 2 in intelligence.
Then yes you can apply the +4 to intelligence, but since the max intelligence score for an animal is 2 the only thing you obtain is a +1 if your base animal has 1 in intelligence at the begining giving it a 2 in INT...
You can't have an animal with 6 in INT since, by the rules, it will not be an animal anymore ;)
There is nothing to support this at all.Sorry but there's something, and, imo, something important :
It is clearly stated in the rules that an animal cannot have more than 2 in intelligence.
Then yes you can apply the +4 to intelligence, but since the max intelligence score for an animal is 2 the only thing you obtain is a +1 if your base animal has 1 in intelligence at the begining giving it a 2 in INT...
You can't have an animal with 6 in INT since, by the rules, it will not be an animal anymore ;)
Except that you can have an animal with 6 Int. Ask any Druid, Ranger, or Cavalier.
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I have a player in my game who has taught her horse some tricks. While statting up said horse, The Bestiary said to use the Advanced Simple Template to represent a heavy horse(which what she bought).
My question is thus. The Advanced Template says to add a +4 to all ability scores. Since this boosts the horse's INT to 6, does that mean it can learn a maximum of 18 tricks. Or is the trick cap 6? If in fact there is a "trick cap". Also, I guess ultimately this could be a GM call. But I wanted to know if there was an official answer before making the call.
Thanks in advance,
Evil G.
In general the debate here is pointless as once your animal companions intelligence raises to 3 or greater it would be able to understand any simple command you could give it, there may not be RAW example as PFC is silent on this issue but as of 3.5 that is how things were run by the RAW. Additionally, once you break the 3 int barrier you can give it ranks in whatever skills you like, including linguistics. It is VERY much worth the point to teach the little guy common, or dwarven, or whatever else you like. And yes, that does mean your animal will be able to read, write, and understand that language just as a normal PC, the just can't speak as they lack the organs to do so. This has brought a couple of interesting situations in my playgroup actually.
For example, the multiclass ranger/fighter had a boon companion ape. He taught him how to read, write, and understand common. He also gave the guy a rank in craft armor as well so he could have him help him craft in his free time. He utilized this to GREAT measure when it came down to RP events and everybody loved it! He joked that it gave him the benefit of either doubling his efficiency or halving his work load.The apes name was Carlton Jr.
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Except that you can have an animal with 6 Int. Ask any Druid, Ranger, or Cavalier.There is nothing to support this at all.Sorry but there's something, and, imo, something important :
It is clearly stated in the rules that an animal cannot have more than 2 in intelligence.
Then yes you can apply the +4 to intelligence, but since the max intelligence score for an animal is 2 the only thing you obtain is a +1 if your base animal has 1 in intelligence at the begining giving it a 2 in INT...
You can't have an animal with 6 in INT since, by the rules, it will not be an animal anymore ;)
My player in question IS A RANGER. And after reading the rules for Animal Companions that start on page 51 of the Corebook, it does not state that you can or cannot increase an Animals Intelligence. At 4th, 9th, 14th, and 20th Level, you increase one of the Animals ability scores. You are correct that it does not say you can't increase intelligence. However all of the animals that are listed have an intelligence of 1 or 2. And the bonus tricks have nothing to do with the Intelligence score.
So the conclusion is, there really is no official ruling one way or the other. The Bestiary states that all "Animals" cannot have an INT score higher than 2. I would think that that rule supersedes. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.
So the conclusion is, there really is no official ruling one way or the other.
Actually, there is an official ruling, and that ruling is "Yes, you can raise your animal companion/mount's Intelligence, and they're still an animal if you do", but if you read the Skills and Feats sections for the Animal Companions, you'd see that such a ruling really isn't needed because the book goes into detail as to what happens if your animal companion has an Int of 3 or higher.
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...a ruling really isn't needed because the book goes into detail as to what happens if your animal companion has an Int of 3 or higher.
Ding ding ding! Ladies and gentlemen, someone get this man a hat because we have a winner!
My player in question IS A RANGER. And after reading the rules for Animal Companions that start on page 51 of the Corebook, it does not state that you can or cannot increase an Animals Intelligence. At 4th, 9th, 14th, and 20th Level, you increase one of the Animals ability scores. You are correct that it does not say you can't increase intelligence. However all of the animals that are listed have an intelligence of 1 or 2. And the bonus tricks have nothing to do with the Intelligence score.So the conclusion is, there really is no official ruling one way or the other. The Bestiary states that all "Animals" cannot have an INT score higher than 2. I would think that that rule supersedes. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.
Sorry, are wrong and reason being is that specific overrides general and for the animal companion, they cease being "normal" animals and become animal companions, and normal animal rules no longer apply to them. As an example of this look at how no animal companion gets any kind of racial modifiers for flight or the like as the normal variants of the animals do.
This is simply one of those cases of "It's magical, just go with it."
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Well, I'll be totally and completely damned! LOL!!!
Thank you Zurai, for pointing me to the exact section of the rules that ever so blatantly put things into ultimate clarity. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic. I really am thankful.) I just wish you had pointed me in that direction.
Of course, my original question still stands. My players ranger is only third level, amd this isn't her animal companion YET. Which means when I add the Advanced Simple Template to a Horse like it says in the Bestiary, to make a Heavy Horse, do I raise its intelligence from 2 to 6. Understand the question now. Its not an Animal Companion yet. Its just an ordinary Heavy Horse. She bought said ordinary Heavy Horse last level.
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The rules are very clear - normal animals cannot have an int higher than 2. Period. Zurai I do not know why you are so insistent that the rules say otherwise.
Animal Companions (including paladin special mounts etc) are an exception to this rule. I clearly said that in my original answer. The OP did not indicate that this animal was an animal companion or that the player was a ranger.
Since the ranger is only 3rd level the horse is not an animal companion yet and does not get the increased int when the advanced template is applied. Also keep in mind that the stats for a horse animal companion are given - see the Druid class. Animals that are animal companions do not get templates or other things like that added - they follow the animal companion advancement rules.
The fighter in your example has a normal horse of some sort. If you add the advanced template to it, it's int score does NOT go up.
If the 3rd level ranger's normal horse, which cannot have an int higher than 2 decides he wants it to become his animal companion later on, you are in a bit of a grey area. According to the rules that horse would be altered and would have to begin following the animal companion rules.
All of this is pretty clear and is spelled out in the rules.
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If we go with whats being said by Zurai and Metric, all Heavy Horses are inherently smarter than Light Horses. Still think no clarification is needed?
There is a lot of clarity that is a mess with the "Heavy Horse" mainly in the fact that they did not have room for it in the Bestiary and instead choose to reference it as they did under the normal horse statblock. It is in-eloquently dealt with and has caused many issues with players using mounts in this regard.
There main school of thought here says that the "Heavy Horse" is just as you describe, significantly better in every way (short intelligence) than a normal horse. This makes thing pretty easy when it comes to some aspects but leaves players choosing animal companions at a loss because there is no proper animal companion statblock for a heavy horse. Following the conversion that is suggested results in an animal companion that is without a doubt better in every way/shape/form (Short a flight speed) than all other animal companions.
I think this a problem, and probably the largest tear in the continuity the system has to date. At least in terms of how often it comes up.
My advice is to just use GM fiat here because there is no "official" way of doing it.
The rules are very clear - normal animals cannot have an int higher than 2. Period. Zurai I do not know why you are so insistent that the rules say otherwise.
I said that it was false that an animal with int higher than 2 is automatically a magical beast, and that the rules say you don't increase an animal's intelligence when you apply the Advanced Simple Template to it. Both of those statements are provably true. Please don't put words in my mouth.
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The rules are very clear - normal animals cannot have an int higher than 2. Period. Zurai I do not know why you are so insistent that the rules say otherwise.I said that it was false that an animal with int higher than 2 is automatically a magical beast, and that the rules say you don't increase an animal's intelligence when you apply the Advanced Simple Template to it. Both of those statements are provably true. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Look, I'm not going to argue with you. If you mis understood me, or I was unclear then I'm sorry. I said from the beginning that the rules indicate that a normal animal (not an animal companion etc) cannot have an int score higher than 2. If an animal somehow did get its int score raised in theory, such as throgh an awaken spell, it would cease to be an animal and would become a magical beast. This is a fact. No amount of terse arguing on your part will change this.
To the original poster, the rules as I, and most others in this thread, have explained are correct.
If an animal somehow did get its int score raised in theory, such as throgh an awaken spell, it would cease to be an animal and would become a magical beast.
Please cite where in the rules this is stated.
If an animal somehow did get its int score raised in theory, such as throgh an awaken spell, it would cease to be an animal and would become a magical beast.Please cite where in the rules this is stated.
Marc was directly referencing the spell "Awaken."
From the Awaken spell we find this:
"An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal)."
If an animal somehow did get its int score raised in theory, such as throgh an awaken spell, it would cease to be an animal and would become a magical beast.Please cite where in the rules this is stated.Marc was directly referencing the spell "Awaken."
From the Awaken spell we find this:
"An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal)."
No, actually, he was just using awaken as an example for a mythical general rule. In fact, if that general rule existed, the text you quoted would not be needed.
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No, actually, he was just using awaken as an example for a mythical general rule. In fact, if that general rule existed, the text you quoted would not be needed.
Except for the fact that this is pretty much the only way a mundane animal can actually GAIN intelligence (short of a wish) in the game, there is no need for unnecessarily blocks devoted to something that only occurs as infrequently as this.
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Yay, this argument again....
Normal animals can't have int above 2. its in the animal type. period. thats what it says. animal companions specifically mention ability to have int over 2 (or strongly imply, depending on POV)
there is no "heavy horse" animal companion, there is horse. once you count as a 6th level druid for a combanion its stats are the same (give or take a few stat points) as a heavy horse.
people keep arguing for an animal companion with a template, and thats not supported by anything in the rules.
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Which is why, for now, I am going with Marc and Name Violation. My players' Horses will not get the INT increase as stated in the Advanced Template. I don't see a problem with letting the ranger choose this animal as her companion once she gains her next level. I doubt having a Heavy Horse as a companion will be a game breaker anyway. So, thanks to those who offered advice. I also never intended for this to turn into an all out argument.
If you want to play by RAW, then this is what happens at 4th Ranger level:
He gains the Animal Companion ability, and chooses the horse animal companion.
It has the following statblock (which is neither horse, nor heavy horse):
Horse
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
*This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
At 7th ranger level, he qualifies as a 4th level druid and you apply the following stats to his horse:
4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained.
Thus, he has a special-case horse that has normal stats, except it has a bite attack that counts as a primary attack despite not being combat trained, and it's hoof damage is already increased to 1d6 (but still a secondary attack).
After 3 more levels, he gets a small increase in stats and is considered "combat trained" (gets the Combat Training trick package, and hooves would be considered primary attacks if they were the only attack they have, but they have a bite, so it's still secondary). Mostly, it's the free tricks I suppose.
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That being said, it's competing against things like the Big Cat, which on top of having higher stat increase at their boost level (and become Large as well), also come packaged with pounce, grab and rake. Oh, and higher damage on their natural attacks too.
The starting package for the Horse is a good, competing animal (the only real mount starting animal I think). The "combat trained" aspect is completely inappropriate here, as the hooves remain secondary weapons, and you are likely to have most combat related tricks trained already (otherwise it'd be useless in combat by 7th level), and Bonus Tricks are something all animals get already anyways.
I'd say it'd be far more appropriate to add +4 Str, Dex, and Con at 7th Druid level (10th Ranger level), similar to a heavy horse would get.
If you are really generous, maybe allow it to "buck", allowing 4 hoof attacks on a full attack, or something to that effect (giving it an expanded combat option).
I'd leave the mental stats where they are. As a permanent animal companion, the general "advanced simple template" (meant for monster use), isn't quite so appropriate in the hands of a Player's option. Most other animals aren't sitting at 16 Wis and 10 Cha (making it wiser and more charming than the average HERO Fighter, ha!).
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Finally, I had done some tweaking of the Horse/Mount rules myself, when I came upon converting a 3.5 Campaign that has some specific rules for travel time/event dependent stuff and Pathfinder removed the various "light" horses (that had 60' speed).
I came up with some special qualities for horses (either natural, or trainable, however you want to apply them):
Quick: Increase base speed by 10 ft. +2 Dex, -2 Str.
Strong: Increase natural armor by +1. +2 Str, -2 Dex.
Wild: Treat one application of the attack trick as two (will attack anything). Must use a one time "push" Handle Animal check for the animal to allow you as a rider.
"Quick" give option for a light horse: usually for scouts or message carriers, or if that's all the horse is meant for.
"Strong" gives the option for a heavy horse: such as a work horse, or a more in-the-thick-of-it battle trained horse.
"Wild" was just me having fun with ideas, giving the option of those "hard to break" horses that are never truly domesticated. It allows a tough to use mount (can't just hand it to anyone), but it doesn't need a special set of tricks beyond the Combat Training general purpose to be able to attack undead, etc.
Hope you find these ideas useful.
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Particularly,Hope you find these ideas useful.
Finally, I had done some tweaking of the Horse/Mount rules myself, when I came upon converting a 3.5 Campaign that has some specific rules for travel time/event dependent stuff and Pathfinder removed the various "light" horses (that had 60' speed).
I came up with some special qualities for horses (either natural, or trainable, however you want to apply them):
Quick: Increase base speed by 10 ft. +2 Dex, -2 Str.
Strong: Increase natural armor by +1. +2 Str, -2 Dex.
Wild: Treat one application of the attack trick as two (will attack anything). Must use a one time "push" Handle Animal check for the animal to allow you as a rider."Quick" give option for a light horse: usually for scouts or message carriers, or if that's all the horse is meant for.
"Strong" gives the option for a heavy horse: such as a work horse, or a more in-the-thick-of-it battle trained horse.
"Wild" was just me having fun with ideas, giving the option of those "hard to break" horses that are never truly domesticated. It allows a tough to use mount (can't just hand it to anyone), but it doesn't need a special set of tricks beyond the Combat Training general purpose to be able to attack undead, etc.
Great stuff!
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Which is why, for now, I am going with Marc and Name Violation. My players' Horses will not get the INT increase as stated in the Advanced Template. I don't see a problem with letting the ranger choose this animal as her companion once she gains her next level. I doubt having a Heavy Horse as a companion will be a game breaker anyway. So, thanks to those who offered advice. I also never intended for this to turn into an all out argument.
Quick follow up - I've been marking things as I come across them with the new FAQ tag and I've marked this as a good FAQ candidate. I see others have as well which I think is is a very good thing - hopefully the "normal animals cannot have an INT higher than 2" confusion will then be resolved once and for all ...
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Quick follow up - I've been marking things as I come across them with the new FAQ tag and I've marked this as a good FAQ candidate. I see others have as well which I think is is a very good thing - hopefully the "normal animals cannot have an INT higher than 2" confusion will then be resolved once and for all ...Which is why, for now, I am going with Marc and Name Violation. My players' Horses will not get the INT increase as stated in the Advanced Template. I don't see a problem with letting the ranger choose this animal as her companion once she gains her next level. I doubt having a Heavy Horse as a companion will be a game breaker anyway. So, thanks to those who offered advice. I also never intended for this to turn into an all out argument.
I've been doing the same thing as well. And I tagged this shortly after the thread exploded. LOL!
I just wanted to weigh in and say that an animal cannot have an intelligence higher than 2 (animal companions excepting). I believe one of the game designers said as much not too long ago.
A heavy horse has an Intelligence of 2 despite the template, for example.
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I just wanted to weigh in and say that an animal cannot have an intelligence higher than 2 (animal companions excepting). I believe one of the game designers said as much not too long ago.
A heavy horse has an Intelligence of 2 despite the template, for example.
Glad you stopped by the thread RavingDork. Thanks for sharing your opinion on this topic.
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Q: Can an animal *companion* have an intelligence higher than 2?
A: Yes. The exact text in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook alludes to this. People might be confused as the 3.5 FAQ ruled that animals with Ints higher then 2 became Magical Beasts (or some such) but Pathfinder has changed this.
Skills: This lists the animal's total skill ranks. Animal companions can assign skill ranks to any skill listed under Animal Skills. If an animal companion increases its Intelligence to 10 or higher, it gains bonus skill ranks as normal. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can purchase ranks in any skill. An animal companion cannot have more ranks in a skill than it has Hit Dice.
The "Awaken" spell is another issue entirely, that spell specifically changes the animal into a magical beast.
If that is not enough, the post from James Jacobs here indicates that a paladin can put points into his mount's intelligence to raise it.
So in the end... your paladin won't have an Int 6 horse at all... unless you decided to put points into Intelligence as your horse leveled up, of course. The Advanced Template has nothing to do with animal companions.
Q: How about a normal animal? Can it have an intelligence higher than 2? The heavy horse, for example, gets the Advanced Simple template, and the rebuild rules add +4 to all abilities, which would bring Intelligence up to 6. What then?
A: A normal animal cannot have an intelligence above 2. The designers intended players to use the Quick rules when making the heavy horse, not necessarily a rebuild rules. James Jacob's comment from here though does help this issue.That said, if you use the rebuild option with the Advanced template, not applying the bonus to an animal's Intelligence is probably a good way to go. If you're just applying the quick version, it doesn't really matter.
He also spoke about it here.
This is a good point; it's probably a good idea to not increase the horse's Intelligence score to 6. But even if you do, the horse doesn't suddenly get the ability to speak or understand languages; he'd need to take ranks in Linguistics to do that, and even then would lack the ability to speak.
In any case, I'll speak with Jason about making sure this bit of clarification gets added to the FAQ or whatever we end up doing for the Bestiary. Of course, if you just use the quick rules for the advanced template (which is the whole point of the advanced template, to make it easy to use), this isn't a problem anyway.
I hope this helps to clear things up.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys