Okay, having seen 300 for the fifth time, I can no longer resist the urge for a Greek campaign. I have done some historical research, but this will be more fantasy style. Nevertheless, I find the Spartan's reality so strong, I am almost afraid they will be level adjusted compared to their fellow Greeks who are baseline humans.
Below is my take on SPARTANS! (should always be caps with an exclamation point like the movie) as a variant race. Ironically, to keep balance I based them more on Dwarves than humans.
Oh, one plug for somebody else's stuff: Sean K. Reynold's New Argonauts for 3.5 is very good. I got a free PDF of it off Drivethrurpg. I am going to use more classes than he does with a tad more magic--suitibly repackaged--than he does, but plan on stealing his monsters pretty much outright.
SPARTAN!
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int (their formal education is focused more on war than any academics)
The Agoge: From the age of 7 to manhood SPARTANS! are trained in the "Upbringing" which immerses them in violence and war. It grants them the following:
Proficiency: All SPARTANS! are proficient with the Spear, shortsword, javelin, light and medium armor and the Hoplon (round tower shield). This replaces the proficiencies of any core class they might take.
Endurance: they recieve Endurance as a bonus feat.
One handed spear: they may use a spear as a one handed without penalty provided they have a Hoplon shield on their other arm.
Hoplon Slam: They may make a slam attack with a Hoplon shield (but no other tower shield) that does 1d12 bludgeoning damage but does not add their str bonus to the damage as the weight and balance of the shield, not their brawn supplies the power.
Stand and face it: SPARTANS! add their Con bonus to all will saves vs.fear effects.
Phalanx Fighting: When standing next to another SPARTAN! with a hoplon you gain a +1 training bonus to your AC. If you have one on each side of you, this increases to +2.
Give me your opinions on this and suggestions on any other ideas you might have for a Greek campaign.
Ok, so first off, my opinion is that 'Spartan' should be a class not a race. Though most spartans were warriors, it was their training more then their physiology that yielded their strength in battle. Training of that sort is represented in character class. To that effect you might be interested in the super genius armiger. It is a high defence, high durability class, that has options for using a spear and polearms together. Even if its not exactly what you are looking for there are some great ideas for you in there.
What kind of greek are we talking about? Will you be including mythology or is this a historical game? If you are interested in including gods and demigods, a great hook for the players (and a classic one in greek mythology) is being the child of a god. Again super genius provides with the [http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/s/superGeniusGames/pathfinderRPG/geniusGuides/classes/v5748btpy8eda]godling[/url] and mystic godling.
If you are dead set on spartans being a race, then i think you are going a little over the top with the abilities. Endurance and 3 special abilities is a bit much compared to core races. In addition the profficiency change could be problematic. Many things have Martial Weapon Profficiency as a prereq and the fact that you remove martial weapon proficiency for the special list could be problematic.
In my mind, the Hobgoblin has always filled in the "warrior race" niche very well. But I do agree W/K that it should likely be a class, possibly a prestige class, along the lines of the Defender. You could also make it so non-SPARTANS! can only take the Warrior NPC class, while full fighter is a SPARTAN! only class.
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In my humble opinion, they should be neither a class nor a race but rather a culture. A couple of feats that only someone from Sparta can have as well as specific traits that only someone from Sparta can have.
A greek game would be very cool. You could have several interesting races. Faun and Centaurs as well as Myrmidons.
I pine for a Greek Myth campaign as well. But I'm not sure that D&D is the right vehicle to properly bring the Greek heroes to life. I was pondering doing something with 3rd edition Runequest.
CJ
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You can make a case for Spartans having racial bonuses due to the primitive eugenics they practiced.
I'd make it +2 STR or CON, but not both. -2 INT.
Spartan bonus feats should be teamwork feats. Bonuses to saves against fear are appropriate. They should have an advantage against other Greeks but not a game-breaking one; Athenians and Thebans were pretty tough, too.
Here's a couple of alternate class features for the APG Phalanx Soldier:
Stand Firm (Ex): At 2nd level, a phalanx soldier gains a
+1 bonus to CMD against bull rush, overrun, pull, push,
and trip attempts. This bonus also applies on saves against
trample attacks. The bonus increases by +1 for every four
levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.
Phalanx Fighting (Ex): At 3rd level, when a phalanx
soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear
of his size as a one-handed weapon. This ability replaces
armor training 1.
I agree Spartans are humans, not another race, so I wouldn't give any racial adjustments as you have. I too would make it a class, and if you have a similar medium armor, hoplin shield bearing warrior, you could make your elite class into a prestige class.
Somewhat coincidental is the fact I am working on a Celtic setting that fits historically at the same time as the Homeric poems were being created - a very ancient setting. I also plan to introduce a Mycenaean based warrior culture as part of a second campaign and a Spartan styled warrior is certainly needed for that setting.
In PF/D&D play, as a GM I created a unit of greek like warriors that were pounded into dust with area of effect spells. Perhaps you could have some type of immunity or bonus to save for units vs. area of effect spells, so opposing spell casters would be less successful using them - just a thought.
GP
In PF/D&D play, as a GM I created a unit of greek like warriors that were pounded into dust with area of effect spells. Perhaps you could have some type of immunity or bonus to save for units vs. area of effect spells, so opposing spell casters would be less successful using them - just a thought.
GP
One of my home brew empires has an elite unit like this. When there are more than 5 of them, they can make a testudo formation with their shields, and gain the benefits of full cover. When I ran them and their battle cleric commanders against my group, the PCs broke and ran.
It made me tear up a little. sniff...
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Spartans are given stats as a separate race in Relics and Rituals: Olympus... a product I recommend to ANYONE wanting to run a Greek campaign. (Same goes for Green Ronin's Trojan War sourcebook.) Your version is VERY close to theirs, actually, although no Phalanx stuff in theirs, although there are some nice feats for it. (The justification for them being a separate race in the book is mentioning the Cadmus myth that states that the first Spartans sprang from the teeth of a dragon, and, as such, they aren't entirely human. I REALLY wish they'd given us Myrmidons based on the same argument, but, sadly they did not.)
TSR published a sourcebook for Ancient Greek campaigns for use with AD&D 2nd ed. called Age of Heroes back in the day. It provided a special kit for hoplites (or spartiates if from Sparta) but really there’s not much discernable difference from a regular fighter, beyond the suggested equipment, weapon proficiencies, and skills.
The sourcebook includes kits for other classes, a brief history and myth lesson, a section on daily Greek life, a list of setting-specific equipment, magical items, and monetary exchange rates, plus some maps. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s available free online somewhere like a lot of other old out-of-print AD&D supplements. The class kits aren’t so helpful since they use the old rules but the other stuff might be.
This link appears to be an attempt at creating a Ancient Greek campaign for DND 3e. (I ran into it by googling 'Age of Heroes Dungeons and Dragons', it doesn't seem to be terribly detailed.)
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A while back, I wrote up a fantasy-Greece campaign setting for d20. Never finished it, but there was a Spartan-analogue in the setting, and they were humans who got access to some unique regional feats. Rewriting it with the APG stuff, I'd reassign some of the class archetypes to them instead. For example, I might say that you can only take "Phalanx Fighter" for your fighter class archetype if you're from FauxSparta.
Also, an interesting idea for races in a pseudo-Greek game is to use the ancient concept of the Ages of Man. Essentially, the Greeks believed that the gods had made and destroyed the race of men three times in the past, and that the current race of humans were their fourth try. For my setting, I interpreted this literally.
The first "humans" were the chrusos, perfect and semi-immortal people who were mostly eliminated in the war between the gods and the Titans. After that were the child-like argureous, who were made blissful and content, but didn't worship the gods because they didn't need anything. The gods smote them and made the chalkos, savage and war-like men who were made to fight for the gods' amusement until the time of the flood. After that, the gods decided to make a race that were weak and dependent on the gods for help to survive, so they made the sidireos, modern man. These were called the Ages of Gold, Silver, Bronze, and Iron, respectively. A few hundred (maybe more, maybe less) of each prior race of men still exist, along with normal humans, demigods, amazons, nymphs, fauns, and centaurs as playable races.
Humans become more distinct if you give them class and feat options, rather than saying they've got different statistics. That's my two cents on it anyway.
Jeremy Puckett
hmmmm...well the consensus seems to SPARTANS! as a race no, as a class, yes. Only thing is as a class it would be open to everyone. A Hoplite class would be appropriate for any greek character, but the spartan training was more intensive and complete. If you had an Athenian warrior and a SPARTAN! warrior stand side by side, the Athenian would have the same equipment, and know about phalanx fighting...but the Athenian was a weekend warrior and a SPARTAN! a SEAl by comparison. Also I had kept in mind the SPARTAN! claim that they descended from Hercules-hence the adjustments.
But what I may do is make a Hoplite variant of the Fighter, and for SPARTANS! give regional feats and traits that set them apart.
What other races woul you guys suggest for a greek setting? I am definitely thinking centaurs.
I know many heroes were said to be children of the gods, so I am working on a Demi-Olympian race. It will basically give the player access to one of their divine parents domains and domain abilities.
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What other races woul you guys suggest for a greek setting? I am definitely thinking centaurs.
I know many heroes were said to be children of the gods, so I am working on a Demi-Olympian race. It will basically give the player access to one of their divine parents domains and domain abilities.
My suggestions:
*Humans (lots of alternate bloodlines and class features, including an Amazon bloodline and a Demigod bloodline)*Centaurs (bog-standard horse-and-dude mergers)
*Gorgons (not just Medusa and her sisters--expand the context to mean "any former human cursed by the gods with ugliness and bizarre powers, and their descendants"; they'd be like PC versions of medusas, minotaurs, and things like that--a "race" with a thousand faces, all of them hideous)
*Fauns (male and female satyrs, basically)
*Nymphs (all-female plant people; their males are sessile and only semi-intelligent)
*Chimera (not the monster type--any sort of animal-person humanoid, so that you can have bizarre wolf-people or cat-people, which ties in with Greek legend as well as giving you a chance to make a nod toward other analogue world cultures; Egypt, anyone?)
That's what I've got right now, besides my post above about different ages of man.
Jeremy Puckett
wouldn't be open to everyone if it were a Racial based class, or better yet it's either a low entry point PrC (requirements: BAB +4 and be Spartan.) or it consists of some racial alternate class abilities, combined with a Class Archetype ala APG.
I'd like to thank Paizo for giving us this great new vessel for creating new classes without creating new classes, any Archetype can be fit into this new framework from Ninja to Samurai to Apache warrior. This can even be used to create Future/Modern archetypes.
What other races woul you guys suggest for a greek setting? I am definitely thinking centaurs.
I know many heroes were said to be children of the gods, so I am working on a Demi-Olympian race. It will basically give the player access to one of their divine parents domains and domain abilities.
My suggestions:
*Humans (lots of alternate bloodlines and class features, including an Amazon bloodline and a Demigod bloodline)
*Centaurs (bog-standard horse-and-dude mergers)
*Gorgons (not just Medusa and her sisters--expand the context to mean "any former human cursed by the gods with ugliness and bizarre powers, and their descendants"; they'd be like PC versions of medusas, minotaurs, and things like that--a "race" with a thousand faces, all of them hideous)
*Fauns (male and female satyrs, basically)
*Nymphs (all-female plant people; their males are sessile and only semi-intelligent)
*Chimera (not the monster type--any sort of animal-person humanoid, so that you can have bizarre wolf-people or cat-people, which ties in with Greek legend as well as giving you a chance to make a nod toward other analogue world cultures; Egypt, anyone?)That's what I've got right now, besides my post above about different ages of man.
Jeremy Puckett
You could also create "Blood of the Gods" archetypes replacing standard human racial abilities.
You will need to clarify the type of Spartan you are talking about. "Spartan" society can be broken down into 3 major casts (plus some minor casts). I think the Spartans are overrated asshats - The Athenians, Corinthians, and Thebans (while being asshats at times) are far more interesting.
Helots - land slaves (a lot of people refer to them as serfs but that got a far worse deal than your average mediaeval serf). They were the original inhabitants of Laconia and Messenia that were subjugated when the Doric (The Greek speaking tribe that Spartans are descended from) peoples invaded the Peloponnesus. The were tied to the land and made to work to provide the Spartans with food and goods. They were ritually mistreated, humiliated and even slaughtered: every autumn, the Krypteia (Spartan Gestapo)or in fact any Spartan could kill a Helot without fear of repercussion. On top of this they were expected to supply light infantry for military campaigns. At times the Helots outnumbered the full Spartans 100-1
Skiritai/Perioeci - "The dwellers around" were mostly merchants and craftsmen, they had no political rights but could own land and trade. They would provide the bulk of the light a very large proportion of the heavy infantry. It would not be uncommon for a "Spartan" army to be Perioeci and Helots lead by full Spartan officers.
The Spartans - lived in fear they, trained because like apartheid South Africa they were a parasitic population that lived off another far more populous group of people. They had to be the best warriors or the Helots would rise up and slaughter them. At the time of their greatest power they could only field an army of 8000 Spartiates. All males were soldiers and their focus was to stop the Helots from rising.
Thermopolye - There were more than 300 at Thermopylae. On the first & Second day there were about 5000 Greeks including Leonidas's 300 another 1000 Greeks were sent to guard the pass that lead around behind them.
On the third day the Persians had located the pass and the 1000 Greeks that were guarding it withdrew on to a hill to make a stand. The 20000 Persians that were sent to take the pass bypassed them and moved down to outflank the main Greek force.
This is where the incredibly brave part starts - Leonidas discovering that he is about to be outflanked, gives orders for the rest of the army to retreat. The 300 Spartans + 900 helots will remain and give the rest of the Greeks time to retreat. The army of Thespiae 700 men refused to leave the Spartans and the Spartans forced 400 Thebans to remain as Thebes was going to go over to the Persians. So instead of the 300 it is more like the 1300...
Still it was extremely brave and gave the Greeks something to rally behind it also gave the Greeks a group of soldiers that had built up confidence and experience in fighting the Persians.
This site has the best resources for Greek Myth the Theoi Project .
From the site
A COMPLETE LIST OF THE FANTASTIC TRIBES OF ANCIENT GREEK LEGEND
ABARIMONES A tribe of backward footed men who lived somewhere in the Himalayas.
AEGIPANES A tribe of goat-legged and horned men who lived in the Atlas Mountains of Libya.
AMAZONS A tribe of warrior women. They fought with Heracles, Theseus and the Greeks during the Trojan War.
ANDROPHAGI (Androphagoi) A tribe of African cannibals who lived entirely on the flesh of men.
ARIMASPIANS (Arimaspoi, Monommatoi) A tribe of one-eyed Scythian men who warred with the Griffins for gold.
ARIMPHAEI (Arimphaioi) A sacred Scythian tribe, blessed like their neighbours the Hyperboreans.
ARTABATITAE (Artabatitai) A tribe of African men who travelled around on all fours like apes.
ASTOMI (Astomoi) A hair-covered and mouthless Indian tribe who lived off the scent of aromatic plants.
ATLANTEANS (Atlantes) The people of the mythical island of Atlantis.
BLEMMYAE (Blemmyai, Sternophthalmoi) A tribe of headless African men whose faces were set upon their chests.
CALINGI (Kalingoi) A tribe of short-lived Indian men who reached maturity at the age of five and died aged eight.
CHOROMANDAE (Khromandai) A tribe of Indian men with hair-covered bodies, dog's teeth and a horrible scream in place of speech. They were basically a type of ape.
CYCLOPES (Kyklopes) A tribe of barbarous, one-eyed giants who shepherded their flocks on the island of Sicily.
CYNOCEPHALI (Kunokephaloi, Hemikunes) A tribe of dog-headed African men. They were probably baboons.
GEGENEES A tribe of six-armed, earth-born men fought by the Argonauts on Bear Mountain in Mysia.
GORGADES An African tribe whose womenfolk were covered in long hair.
HELIADES A fabulous people who inhabited seven happy islands in the southern ocean. They were almost hairless with bendable bones and a double-tongue which allowed them to hold two conversations at the same time.
HIPPOPODES A tribe of northern European men with horses' feet.
HYPERBOREANS (Hyperboreioi) A fantastic race of long-lived men who lived in a land of eternal spring beyond the north wind.
LAESTRYGONES (Laistrygones) A tribe of cannibal giants native to Italy or northern Europe. They were encountered by Odysseus on his travels.
MACHLYES (Makhlyes) A Libyan tribe of androgynes whose bodies were female on one side and male on the other.
MACROBI (Makroboi) A tribe of long-lived Indian men who were never touched by signs of old age.
MACROCEPHALI (Makrokephaloi) An African tribe of men with long, elongated heads.
MANDI (Mandoi) A race of Indians who grew old and wrinkled shortly after birth.
NULI (Nuloi) An African people with backward-turned, eight-toed feet.
PANDAE (Pandai) A tribe of long-lived Indian men with gigantic ears, eight fingers and toes, and hair covered bodies. The hair was white with youth but changed to black as they aged.
PANOTII (Panotioi) A fabulous northern European tribe with gigantic, body-length ears.
PYGMIES (Pygmaioi) A tribe of diminutive African men just one pygme tall (a pygme being the length from elbow to knuckle on a regular man). They were engaged in an endless war with migrating flocks of cranes.
SCIAPODS (Skiapodes, Steganopodes) A tribe of one-legged, one-footed Libyan men. The Sciapod sheltered himself from the sun beneath a giant, upraised foot. For this reason they were known as Umbrella- or Shadow-Foots.
SCIRITAE (Sikiritai) An Indian tribe with snake-like nostrils in place of the nose, and bandy serpentine legs.
STRUTHOPODES (Strouthopodes) An Indian tribe whose womenfolk had tiny, sparrow-like feet, but whose men grew giant 18 inch long ones.
SYRBOTAE (Syrbotai) A tribe of twelve-foot tall African men.
This is a cool idea - good luck!
For my 2 bits I have this:
*differing city-states as racial templates *is* a good idea, IMO. They can/will serve as the "demi-human" options to your setting mostly.
*regional-only feats and traits is also a FANTASTIC way to go with this city-state differences over full blown racial templating.
*mine the myths for the stuff you *want* to include in the game - don't be a completist ... that way lies madness.
*keep your initial list small on the mythical critters junk and go away with that.
*bloodlines from UA may well be a good idea for you to create w/the demi-human population of mythic/ancient Greece. The gods were *constantly* bumping uglies w/humans ... certainly a good idea for PC's, and they *should* be more powerful. The bloodline levels idea from UA is just a good way to explain why/how those demi-humans have more advantages, etc, than the others. In particular I'd call 'em stuff like "Son of Zeus" or "Child of Poseidon" or "Daughter of Athena" or something like that. Ie: tie the benefits TO the god that is the progenitor directly.
*maybe demi-human specific traits would be a good idea as well? Something like say ... with specific bloodline requirements as well (ie: you can't get the crazy strength boosting unless you're a Son of Zeus ala - Hercules).
Just some stuff to consider.
I wouldn't say the spartans deserve a reputation for being undereducated. After all, the spartan men spent all their time at their barracks with the other soldiers, so there was no real reason for them to have to learn how to read. The women of sparta basically ran the economy, and they were educated more like what you might think of as an education nowadays. The spartan soldiers were given training in art and music, so they could have been quite a cultured lot. Then there's also the fact that they were compulsory homosexuals (Mostly the men, but often the women as well), enabling them to fight as hard as possible to keep their loved ones with them.
That's my greek warfare class' two cents, anyway. Why not do a race for the Athenians as well? One thing to note is that they were complete dicks and the rest of Greece hated their guts. One of their common practices was to take over a town, offering them democracy, then leaving them to farm in squalor while they collected taxes from them and got the food shipments in Athens. Or leaving their colonies (full of the same class of non-athenians) to be swept up by invaders.
Ancient Greece. I honestly can't think of a less heroic era.
While I like historical accuracy, I would think it better to remove any sexual orientations out of game play, or even mentioned. Nothing less heroic than knowing your fighting adventurer is a compulsory homosexual.
I'm developing a feudal Japan analog, and while I know that Samurai practiced homosexuality with those younger males they were training in samurai arts, and that Kabuki were essentially male prostitutes for their fan base audience, neither fact is mentioned in my game and I see know reason why it should be mentioned.
The Book of Erotic Fantasy is one of the most notorious splats for 3e, and while given credit for some good mechanics - the book really just raises an eyebrow and makes this strange hobby of ours, stranger still.
I leave "sex" out of the game, it only causes uncomfort and should never be roleplayed - accept the fact that your character probably has sex in his world, but no reason to bring that up in play.
GP
While I like historical accuracy, I would think it better to remove any sexual orientations out of game play, or even mentioned. Nothing less heroic than knowing your fighting adventurer is a compulsory homosexual.
I'm developing a feudal Japan analog, and while I know that Samurai practiced homosexuality with those younger males they were training in samurai arts, and that Kabuki were essentially male prostitutes for their fan base audience, neither fact is mentioned in my game and I see know reason why it should be mentioned.
The Book of Erotic Fantasy is one of the most notorious splats for 3e, and while given credit for some good mechanics - the book really just raises an eyebrow and makes this strange hobby of ours, stranger still.
I leave "sex" out of the game, it only causes uncomfort and should never be roleplayed - accept the fact that your character probably has sex in his world, but no reason to bring that up in play.
GP
I humbly refer you here
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IMO the Spartan is not a different race or specialized class. Their harsh upbringing also weeded out the weak and their formal military training allowed them to outclass the part-time militia and conscript armies of their day.
If I were to make a Spartan, I'd give the average Spartan the elite array and levels in fighter instead of warrior or expert.
And - not to run down a movie you obviously love, but 300 got just about everything wrong.... Try reading Herodotus - the original chronicler instead.
Ah, so you're one of those people.
What people fail to understand is that the movie 300 does not claim historical accuracy. It is a plot based off of the Spartan oral storytelling tradition, which unsurprisingly would of course embellish and make the Spartans seem like the greatest people ever. No big surprise there.
I like 300, and I'm a historian. Is 300 100% historically accurate? No. Does it claim to be? No. Does it need to be in order to be a good movie? Hell no.
I hate it when people feel the compulsory need to deconstruct everything based upon historical accuracy. Those people need to learn to accept good entertainment for what it is, and enjoy it.
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Yeah, as a historian, I'm pretty comfortable with 300 as entertainment myself. Could be because Bruce Campbell's Jack of All Trades series completely burned out the portion of my brain that objected to historical revisionism back in college. :) Besides, aren't RPGs supposed to be describing FANTASTICAL eras rather than strictly adhering to history? (Why I support Spartans as a race... the myths say they aren't of human origin. Why NOT add them in as a group of weirdos in a version of Greece that is closer to myth than history?)
Yeah, I get criticism like that all the time. Working on my Celtic setting, I mention I'm keeping the Bard, and somebody tells me that Celtic bards were more like Skalds, because they didn't use magic. And then I say, "Hey, this is supposed to be D&D, there is magic - this is isn't historical, just borrows historical tropes to better fit the setting. I'm not divorcing magic because it isn't accurate!"
GP
I hate it when people feel the compulsory need to deconstruct everything based upon historical accuracy. Those people need to learn to accept good entertainment for what it is, and enjoy it.
Fair enough, but 300 wasn't good entertainment. It would have be good, and it would have to be entertaining, to qualify for that descriptor. Instead, 300 was noisy, nearly plotless, and repetitive. It was the last Transformers movie, but with worse special effects and a lot more nipples.
As to the thread itself, build the Spartans like a race, using standard human as a baseline. Add to the Spartan basic race with customized traits.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Personally, I would love to see an historically accurate rendition of the Battle of Thermopolae, as one of the greatest battles of ancient history. The movie 300 missed the point that the Persian navy just off the coast is what kept the Persians able to march all the way to northern Greece. The fact that there were more than just the 300 spartans, something like 2000 other Greek warriors were there as well.
I'm not deconstructing 300, that movie was fine for a comic book entertainment version of the Battle of Thermopolae.
I think the real battle is epic enough without adding fantasy tropes - fantasy doesn't always do a better job than reality.
GP
PS: while I don't know if I'd like to hear the Spartans speaking with a Greek accent, I certainly would like to hear something other than a Scottish accent - one would think that all the Greeks were Scots or something!?
300 as accurate? Well, when I read Herodotus I found that the funniest line in the movie is a quote from Herodotus; the one about "fighting in the shade". The crack by the queen about "only spartan women give birth to real men" is also an historical quote, although by a queen 100 or more years after Thermopolaye.
Besides, a lot of SPARTAN! men fought with their junk hanging out...didn't want that much accuracy. However, the first 5 minutes of Hoplite combat were totally accurate in terms of how they would take the charge, advance, and strike. Of course they wore breastplates or laminate armor usually, and they left their capes off the battlefield....and the SPARTANS! were said to be the most deeply religious of all greeks, although they all sound like athenians in their speaches about reason...but if you want accuracy read Herodotus, if you want fun, buy the movie.
What I want to take from the movie was is epic mythology. Like Jason and the Argonauts, or the Trojan horse, or Perseus, or Hercules etc....and that is what I want for a game.
Oh, I was thinking of taking everyone's suggestion of a SPARTAN! class one step further; converting classes for all my races...tweaking each class in the Process with variant class features.
For example:
SPARTANS! = fighters
Athenians (and other Greeks) = rogues
Scythians = Barbarians
Centaurs = Ranger
Satyrs = Bard
Demi-God = Paladin
Sorceress = Sorcerer (a sorceress like Kirke appears in different tales and is usally considered an offspring of Hecate)
Some examples of changes: the Demi-god (variant Paladin) will simply smite (no alighnment needed) and gains the granted powers of one domain of their divine parent. They can only use lay on hands & mercies on themselves which now represents their great recupurative abilities instead of magical healing. they lose their spells but gain a +1 to Str at 4, 7, 10, and 13th levels when they would normally get their next levels of spells.
the Athenian would get fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack, and although they would retain trapfinding, their trap sense bonus is instead a bonus to AC while in a Phalanx--so SPARTANS! become the king of offense in a phalanx, while Athenians become the king of defense in a phalanx. That is a reasonable balance since they were part-time citizen soliers whereas the SPARTANS! were full-time professionals.
Here are base races I have at this moment. As I said in the post above, they will all have Pathfinder core classes turned into racial classes.
Note that since I felt many of these creatures should be more powerful, but don't like things like adjustments, I simply stretched the abilities over multiple character level.
Humans:
· Humans Gain +2 to one ability score OR +1 to two ability scores.
· Humans get one extra skill point at each level.
· Humans Gain one extra feat of their choice at 1st level. They gain Toughness as a bonus feat at 2nd level.
· Humans are all proficient with simple weapons (in this setting includes sickle and scythe but no crossbows) and shields (but not tower shields);
· Humans may take one the following Racial Classes: SPARTAN! (variant fighter), Greek Citizen (Variant Rogue), Scythian (Variant Barbarian),
Satyr
· Satyrs Gain +2 to Cha and +2 to Dex, but are at -2 to Wis.
· Satyrs get a +2 bonus to all Perform checks.
· Low Light Vision
· Magic Pipes: All Satyr’s begin play with a master-craft pan flute. A Satyr with levels in a spell-casting class may cast a spell using his flute, replacing gestures and verbal components with the flute’s song. The spell must be one they know and can cast normally.
· Horns: In melee, a Satyr’s horns are treated as an normal unarmed attack, but deal lethal rather than non-lethal damage. In a charge, they do 1d8+Str plus bonuses for the charge.
· Satyrs gain a +2 bonus to saves vs. magic, and a +1 caster level bonus when casting enchantment spells.
· Satyrs may take levels in the following racial class: Satyr (Bard)
Centaur
· Centaur Gain +2 to Wis and +2 to Str, but are at -2 to Int.
· Four-legged: move at a speed of 40 feet, and get Run as a bonus feat. They also gain a +2 bonus to resist being bull-rushed or overrun.
· Mule kick: Centaurs can make a single powerful kick with their rear legs as a full-attack action. They do 1d8+str damage and do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they do so.
· Centaurs treated as having the Mounted Combat feat for the purposes of meeting feat prerequisites. They are not considered mounted for the purposes of firing a bow & arrow.
· At 7th character level, a Centaur’s size grows to large, their speed increases to 50ft, and their bonus to resist bull rush/over run is now +4 instead of +2. They also gain a +1 bonus to Str score at 8th level.
· Centaurs may take levels in the following racial class: Centaur (Ranger)
Demi-god:
· +2 to any two scores, -2 to any one score
· Immune to all Fear effects.
· Rising power: At 4th and 8th character levels, whichever ability score the Demi-god chooses to improve is matched by an additional +1 to that score.
· Divine Domain: Receive the granted powers of one of the domains listed below. Character levels substitute for cleric levels to determine when they receive the higher granted powers. They cannot cast the domain spells. The domains are:
Animal, Charm, Destruction, Glory, Knowledge, Nobility, Plant, Strength, Sun, Travel, Trickery, Weather.
· A Demi-god may take levels in the following racial classes: Greek Citizen (fighter), Demi-god (Paladin)
Sorceress:
(demi-god of Hecate)
· +2 to Cha and +2 Int, -2 Con
· A sorceress adds their Charisma bonus to all saves vs. magic.
· Seductress: A sorceress can use Charm Person as a spell-like ability 1/day. This increases to 2/day at 5th character level and changes to Charm Monster at 10th level. At 20th character level they can use Charm Monster at will.
· Innate Magic: A Sorceress ignores up to 50 GP in material component requirements.
· Domain: Receive the granted powers of one of the domains listed below. Character levels substitute for cleric levels to determine when they receive the higher granted powers. Domain spells become bonus spells known for the Sorceress class.
Charm, Knowledge, Magic, Luck, Trickery, Death.
· A Sorceress may take levels in the following racial class: Sorceress (Sorcerer)
Medusae:
· +2 to Con and +2 Int, -2 Wis
· Snake haired: a Medusae’s "hair" is made of snakes. Snakes attack as a 1d2 unarmed strike (only one strikes at a time). If it does damage then it that injects a poison as a free action that makes target nauseated for 1d3 rounds. Save is equal to the medusae's Charisma score. If they have a target pinned, then the attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
· Scaly; +2 AC natural armor.
· Gaze Attack: 2/day can project Ray of Enfeeblement from their eyes as spell-like ability. Save DC is equal to the medusae's Charisma score. At 7th character level this Gaze becomes Ray of Exhaustion, and 10th level it becomes Flesh to Stone. The frequency of this ability also increases with character level. It is 2/day at 6th, 3/day at 15th, and at 20th character level it becomes at will.
· At 12th Character level, the legs merge to become a giant snake body. The Medusae become a large creature, gets a +1 bonus to Str, speed reduces to 20ft, and they gain a tail slap attack that does 1d12 + str bludgeoning damage and a in a successful grapple can squeeze a target doing 2d6 + Str damage each round they have them in a grapple, while still having their hands free to defend or perform other attack.
· Medusae may take levels in the following racial class: Medusae (Ranger)
I hate it when people feel the compulsory need to deconstruct everything based upon historical accuracy. Those people need to learn to accept good entertainment for what it is, and enjoy it.Fair enough, but 300 wasn't good entertainment. It would have be good, and it would have to be entertaining, to qualify for that descriptor. Instead, 300 was noisy, nearly plotless, and repetitive. It was the last Transformers movie, but with worse special effects and a lot more nipples.
As to the thread itself, build the Spartans like a race, using standard human as a baseline. Add to the Spartan basic race with customized traits.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
You are entitled to your opinion, certainly.
My point still stands, that history snobs who decry 300 because it is not 100% accurate are wasting their time and do not realize that that wasn't the goal of the movie. Also, deconstructionism based upon historical accuracy has little place in fantasy either, and I encourage the OP to freely take what he wants from the movie.
I agree with Mark, that Spartan should be a race, human with some extra bits on top.
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The thing that I thought was neat about 300 was that it was a "re-telling" by Dilios. (Never mind that he was a Spartan that didn't die with the other 299.) Perhaps it was a poetic device to speak as if you were a witness (Homer did it, though it is believed that he wasn't born until hundreds of years after the Trojan war.)
But all of the fantastical elements that were thrown in seemed to me like the exaggeration of the fisherman (I caught a fish THIS big!) and so things he had never seen before were like monsters to him! His imagination running wild!
At least, that is my interpretation and I am sticking to it! ;)
Personally, I would love to see an historically accurate rendition of the Battle of Thermopolae, as one of the greatest battles of ancient history. The movie 300 missed the point that the Persian navy just off the coast is what kept the Persians able to march all the way to northern Greece. The fact that there were more than just the 300 spartans, something like 2000 other Greek warriors were there as well.
I'm not deconstructing 300, that movie was fine for a comic book entertainment version of the Battle of Thermopolae.
I think the real battle is epic enough without adding fantasy tropes - fantasy doesn't always do a better job than reality.
GP
PS: while I don't know if I'd like to hear the Spartans speaking with a Greek accent, I certainly would like to hear something other than a Scottish accent - one would think that all the Greeks were Scots or something!?
My ancient greek professor told us that Spartan's spoke Greek a lot like Downeaster, folk from Maine speak english, if your not familiar with what that is take most words that end with R and replace them with AH ex: "Mutha an' I took the Cah out fer a drive on sundee" hehehe so I agree no scottish accents!
I've been working on a Totemist system of classes (Brave, Shaman, Trickster) that might work really well for a Divine Bloodline system of classes for Greek Mythology.
Just change the names of the class (Hero, Oracle (sorry new base class!), and Trickster, maybe?). Then, instead of using my Animal, Ancestral, and Elemental totem spirits, change it Olympians, Titans, and Ancestors, and just make up different Bloodlines to bind with.
For example, the Zeus bloodline might allow you to shoot thunderbolts, disguise and shapechange yourself and others, grant kingly commands in battle (marshall auras), and maybe get bonuses when using seduction. Ares might give battle rage, proficiecy in weapons, etc. Vulcan might give out fire powers and the ability to craft magic items. Artemis might give favored enemy and survival bonuses.
Titans might have more elemental powers.
Ancestors might be based on Heracles, Perseus, Icarus, etc.
At the risk of some thread necro, I'd be interested to hear if this campaign ever got off the ground, and if so, how it went.