What are the rules for calculating thrown improvised weapon damage ?
and could one potentially vital strike while doing this ?
It's rather vague.
"To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match."
Yes, you could Vital Strike. The weapon you are using doesn't matter for that feat.
IMO, I would go with the improvised weapon dame rules from Complete warrior, much easier.
It's rather vague.
"To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match."
Yes, you could Vital Strike. The weapon you are using doesn't matter for that feat.
So for example an oak table that seats 8 in your average tavern ?
3d6
IMO, I would go with the improvised weapon dame rules from Complete warrior, much easier.
What he said. I was just saying what Pathfinder presents as an option.
I don't think a medium person could realistically wield a a table that size. It would weigh like 3-400 pounds. A large or huge creature could probably using the same damage of a tower shield for their size.
My dad (a carpenter) said it should way about 100 lb.s Furthermore, in CW for 100 lb.s (3d6) they gave a large table as an example.
Then the 8 person table I moved was made of lead...
It also depends on the age and design of the table.
you don't really need the wield a table to throw it
think how the hulk might throw a table, he'd just grab one end and hurl it in one move.
Right but a big table like that would be a medium or heavy load for a Str 18 fighter. Consider that most thrown or wielded weapons weigh less than 10 lbs...
Now an ogre or giant of some sort wouldn't have a problem with it.
Right but a big table like that would be a medium or heavy load for a Str 18 fighter. Consider that most thrown or wielded weapons weigh less than 10 lbs...
Now an ogre or giant of some sort wouldn't have a problem with it.
thats why I'm looking at ways to gain a large size during combat, which the enlarge person spell seems to be the easiest way a least initally
We had a similar discussion with a friend once and experimented how easy it would be IRL. Long story short I could pick up a 70lb luggage and throw it a couple meters in front of me within a few seconds. Hitting a moving target or something smaller than Small was out of question.
If I had to stat it in game terms I would say it was a full around action provoking AoOn and the +0 or so attack bonus with at best at +1 to strength, the -4 non proficiency penalty and the 10ft range increment make a lot of sense.
Now if some random slightly in shape geek girl can do that I suppose it's reasonable to assume a big badass professionalyl trained, beefy guy can pick up that damn table and throw a tantrum with it, at least in a fantasy setting.
Maybe give an extra -1 for the size of the table and another -1 for the weight?
Maybe give an extra -1 for the size of the table and another -1 for the weight?
Actually you do bring up a good point. There is a cumulative -2 penalty for using a weapon of the wrong size category, and this would apply to improvised weapons as well.
I guess the rest of my post was bad then :(.
And I meant tiny on it, not small. I insist, the 'to hit' modifications seemed very realistic.
You could rule that throwing an object that puts you above your light load has the respective new load's check penalty applied on the attack roll.
Haha, sorry, I actually found the rest of your post very interesting. Though I'm not sure your stat ideas are accurate...but it's 3 in the morning...
|
And according to the rules, a thrown weapon threatens a critical hit only on a natural 20.
"Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."
My dad (a carpenter) said it should way about 100 lb.s Furthermore, in CW for 100 lb.s (3d6) they gave a large table as an example.
If it's made of fibreboard...
An oak table that seats 8 weighs somewhere between "a alot" and "holy crap how did you get that in here."
Which is less than a filing cabinet, which all have weights of "immovable object."
And according to the rules, a thrown weapon threatens a critical hit only on a natural 20.
Anything that doesn't say otherwise always has a crit range of 20 and multiplier of x2
Hmm, throw a whole table huh?
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Obviously there are no clear rules to quote here, but this is how I would think about it. First its fantasy so anything should be possible, and throwing a table would make for an awesome scene.
So what can a person reasonably (even in a fantasy world) throw? I would almost say that to throw something, any significant distance (even with the feat), you need to be able to pick it up and lift it above your head. This gives a limiting rule (reality), yet still allows for it to happen (fantasy). So throw a 200lb table, sure if your strength is 15 or greater. But is weight the only factor? We all know that some light objects are light enough to pick up, but big enough or shapped wierd to still present problems. However I think its easy to put a consistant rule in for that as well, and basically say that you can throw an item no greater then 1 size category larger than yourself. So a table that takes up more space than 5x5 would be considered large, and could be thrown.
If you still feel like strength should be able to overcome the size of the object, you could say that for every category larger than what you could normally lift (with the above rule) you consider the weight of the object doubled for determining if it can be lifted about the head (and as such thrown).
I think this would then cover both weight and size of objects, as for damage. I would say try to find a weapon like it, but most things hit like a club (and then the size category can be used to adjust that).
Like I said not official rules by any means, but I think the above allows for anything to happen, while adding some consistency to the decision.
Obviously there are no clear rules to quote here, but this is how I would think about it. First its fantasy so anything should be possible, and throwing a table would make for an awesome scene.
You would think, wouldn't you? Well, it isn't awesome. I tried it once or twice, rolled a 3 and a 4, and have been ridiculed by my fellow players ever since (they call me the "table flipper" and "the trick fighter whose only trick is that he can't fight").
Being creative and fun just isn't worth it anymore when simply attacking for huge damage is so much faster, safer, and reliable.
Thank goodness you were not trying to throw a sheep.
Thank goodness you were not trying to throw a sheep.
"You dirty sheep chucker!" lol. :P
3d6
I'd go d20, same average but more random results, but with a -2 size penalty.
I also prefer going with the d12 than 2d6 for the randomised improvised weapons.
Again, my damage was for a 100 lb. object from complete warrior, closest thing to a legit source as I could find.
|
Our table has thick legs and a solid top and I highly doubt even a strong person could effectively throw it 10'. Maybe pick it up and charge someone with it. Obviously not all tables are created equal.
Damage for thrown objects is a highly subjective thing, you could certainly make a table of objects as a reference but a lot of GM guesswork would still be required.
Most likely for MY dining table I'd give a -2 for oversized and have it do 2d8 damage. Tables in game I figure are lighter or heavier I would adjust.
|
|
Again, my damage was for a 100 lb. object from complete warrior, closest thing to a legit source as I could find.
I suspect the 100 lbs weight for a 6' table is a bit low but table weights likely vary a lot.
The table my tv sits on weighs 80lbs. You could sit maybe 3 or 4 people at it. And it's not a heavy wood.
Not that it really matters to the base question... but this came up with a quick Google search.
Ambassador 8ft. Traditional Mahogany Wood Conference Table
Dimensions: 96W x 42D x30H Weight: 253lbs.
Beautiful Mahogony 8 person conference Table.
On to the main point. While not RAW we have a house rule that to use anything as an improvised weapon effectively it cannot weigh more then 1/4th or your heavy load. Note this allows a PC with a STR of 18 to throw or fight with an improvised weapon of up to 75 Lbs.
(A Great Axe weighs 12 lbs. So anyone with a 5 STR or higher could use it if it were improvised.)
|
|
On to the main point. While not RAW we have a house rule that to use anything as an improvised weapon effectively it cannot weigh more then 1/4th or your heavy load. Note this allows a PC with a STR of 18 to throw or fight with an improvised weapon of up to 75 Lbs.
This is pretty reasonable, maybe generous, I like it.
Again I find myself late to the party, but I just had an idea featuring Improvised Thrown Weapons. What about applying both an encumbrance penalty AND a non proficiency penalty to heavy thrown objects, similar to the way armor works.
Basically, a medium person with a 17 strength has the following loads:
Light 86 lbs. or less (no penalties)
Medium 87–173 lbs. (+3 max dex, –3 check penalty x4 run speed)
Heavy 174–260 lbs. (+1 max dex, –6 check penalty x3 run speed)
If such a character picks up an item like the above table (253lbs) why not apply a max dex (or strength, depending on what the character uses to attack with at range) based on the weight of the weapon. As well, due to a lack of proficiency the check penalty applies to the attack roll, but you take either the -4 for improvised weapon or the load penalty to checks, whichever is higher. As well, since it takes so much effort to throw something, anything that falls under medium or heavy obviously takes a full round action to throw. As for the run speed being included, use it as a "max range increments" such an item can be thrown. This introduces so many variables that take care of itself, such as the hulk being able to throw heavier stuff easier and farther, since his carrying capacity is much higher, but also puts realistic limits. The aforementioned table could thus be thrown, but no farther than 30ft for a medium sized person, and without proper training (but seriously, who trains to throw a TABLE?)the person throwing can still only get +1 from their dex or str to throw it, and even then still have a -6 on the attack roll. Yes, it makes it hard to hit, but even then, wouldn't it BE hard to hit a person with a table?
Obviously there are no clear rules to quote here, but this is how I would think about it. First its fantasy so anything should be possible, and throwing a table would make for an awesome scene.
I just find a comparable weapon and use that to determine not only damage, but size and handedness.
A large table would be comparable, I think, to a huge club. that's 3d6 damage and a one-handed weapon for a huge creature, two-handed for a large creature, an un-weildable for a medium creature.