I wouldn't even oversimplify it in this manner. Most of Erastil's write up seems to indicate what he would wish under perfect circumstances. While he may not be happy that a worshiper isn't going to get married and have children, that doesn't mean that if that same worshiper grows lots of crops and animals and provides for the community, or if he defends his small community from outside threats, that Erastil wouldn't still love and favor that follow.
He'd just wish that he would have had a wife and children.
I think he would expect them to have a family if they could, take in orphans and such. He would not approve of their lifestyle but would still expect them to do their part in the community, even if they did not have children.
I'm a bit surprised that no one has picked up on the other implications of Erastil's writeup yet. Since he's all about family as a baby producing unit, that means that he's also somewhat anti-gay. If there ever was a god in Golarion that could house the "god hates f%&s" kooks it's Erastil.
KaeYos mentioned gays above, actually. And, again, I think "hate" is a strong way to tag a LG god with in a world where LG, LN, and LE all exist. There might be someone out there holding that sign in Erastil's name, but that someone is not divinely endorsed ... at least, not by Erastil.
I think he would expect them to have a family if they could, take in orphans and such. He would not approve of their lifestyle but would still expect them to do their part in the community, even if they did not have children.
True, I'm just pointing out there is a huge difference between not being thrilled with a follower's choices and actively being antagonistic against them.
Actually, I really like that idea about taking in orphans and caring for the people that don't have anyone in the community.
Also, I'm wondering what people's thoughts on Asmodeus' faith are? Asmmodeus does not allow women in positions of power in Hell, and does this specifically to establish a hierarchy and to dominate someone in any given situation.Not only is this one of Asmodeus' tenants, but its clear that there are women that worship Asmodeus and ignore his misogynistic leanings. Meaning that even the very lawful Asmodeus makes exceptions if it suits his purposes.
I wouldn't even call this an exception. Asmodeus will parcel out a bit of EARTHLY power to any corruptable mortal ... but will cart them off to hell in the end. And I think people aren't as freaked out because Asmodeus is in-game "EVIL" - meaning we sort of /expect/ this sort of "hatin'" from him.
I wouldn't even call this an exception. Asmodeus will parcel out a bit of EARTHLY power to any corruptable mortal ... but will cart them off to hell in the end. And I think people aren't as freaked out because Asmodeus is in-game "EVIL" - meaning we sort of /expect/ this sort of "hatin'" from him.
I didn't word that as well as I wanted to. I was sort of addressing the concept that every follower of Erastil would have to have his exact views on things across the board, when its clear that another lawful deity allows some deviation from his doctrine to advance his cause.
Ah yes, I keep thinking he is LN since a lot of things he represents seem more LN to me.
And I think Erastil would be fine with gay people as long as they were productive members of society. Might feel a bit sad, you know, like the mother that accepts her gay child but is sad because there will be no natural grandchildren.
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I think it might be worth re-reading the section on Erastil's views of the other gods - in particular Cayden Cailean, Desna, Iomedae and Sarenrae. The latter three are (almost) all of the female gods Deadeye talks about, and in each case his attitude is clearly both respectful and patronizing; he's impressed by each of them, admires their power and their strength of will, but laments that they haven't allowed themselves the joys of family life. It is sexist, and old-fashioned, and patriarchal - but I can't really see anywhere in it that either a) demands a subservient role for any of them (it's what he thinks would be best, but he's got no interest in forcing it on them) or b) glosses over the fact that they are powerful women in their own right, have accomplished great things, and are perfectly capable of choosing their familial status for themselves. If anything, his attitude seems to be a combination of pity and confusion: he's genuinely sorry they don't want to do "what's best" - that is, find joys as wives and mothers - and at least a little mystified why they don't understand that it is what's best.
Cayden Cailean, on the other hand, shows the flipside of Erastil's patronizing attitude - he's every bit as proscriptive there as he is toward women, and his attitude is basically the same: a strong-willed spouse would settle "the boy" down. As was pointed out before, it may be sexist, but it's also egalitarian in its own way.
Finally, it's worth noting that the sanctimonious old bugger, for all his emphasis on the importance of stable families and marriage, is apparently a hypocrite: as far as I can tell, he's single. At least Torag is decently married...
My wife doesn't have an account on Paizo, but she is in chat often. Those who have met her there will know her as Luna.
Luna says ,"The rant wasn't necessarily about Erastil in particular, but instead about what female characters might have to put up with when dealing with the faithful of Erastil. What I think on the matter, being female, is that its the same thing as any other social encounter where your manner of dress, station, race or in this case, gender, is called into play. Why is it okay to say, have an elf who dislike/acts superior to humans, but not okay to have a male NPC who acts sexist? If you don't want to encounter such things in game, why not play a male PC instead? Or just don't play a cleric of Erastil."
KaeYos mentioned gays above, actually.
Missed that one...
And, again, I think "hate" is a strong way to tag a LG god with in a world where LG, LN, and LE all exist. There might be someone out there holding that sign in Erastil's name, but that someone is not divinely endorsed ... at least, not by Erastil.
I didn't say that he did, in fact I think that as long as a person strives to fulfill the other parts of his portfolio, he's fine with it. What I was saying is that his views on family life opens the door for those worshipers that have a problem with people who don't fit the "traditional" views on family.
Heck, as far as Old Deadeye goes I'm sure he would be fine with polygamy as well, as long as the family is stable.
To me, Erastil is good (as opposed to neutral) because, if I am recalling his dogma correctly, he doesn't just care the the community keeps on existing. Erastil wants people to not only be productive, but be happy and healthy as well.
If I had to imagine mortal personifications of Erastil and Abadar walking down a street past a starving begger, I can imagine Erastil actually going out of his way to try to get the begger a healthy place in the community. Hunting, farming, building something so that they can keep meals on the table, a home, and (some day) a loving relationship with a spouse (and a few children even). To me, Erastil not only cares that the community will continue, but that they people in the community are healthy and prospering.
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For the OP, if some of your players don't like it change it. If that is not enough to make them happy. Then I suggest finding a new campaign world. Golarion is not a nice world, it is a dark, dangerous unforgiving world. Where bad things happen and sometimes people don't have a problem with it. I personally like that paizo makes their world and gods this way. On the rare times I run across something I don't like I change it.
Lawful Neutral (Good tendencies) fits the writeup better than straight Lawful Good, IMHO. The good he does is incidental at best to his conservative ethos.
Nope.
Lawful Good: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.
Lawful Neutral: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.
Good vs. Evil: ... People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.
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I love the irony of the fact that SKR is, from what I have gathered, a liberal guy who vehemently opposes bigotry, sexism and gender inequity (sorry Sean, your Facebook betrays you) and now he gets flak for writing Erastil as a LG "compassionately conservative" deity.
But I guess that's the risk of writing for the American market, where nipples are bad and spilled guts are OK, and any attempt to make something that is supposed to mirror pseudo-medieval society and yet isn't carebear-level fluffy at the same time results in people crying outrage (anybody remember the "sexist anti-female Seoni fascist postcard" ?).
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By the way; as I interpret him, he isn´t exacly fond of adventuring male. They should start a family, too. And stay with them.
That's the impression I got. Woman, man, makes no difference, you should be part of a community, part of a family, and not galivanting around the world. He would see adventurers with their precious 'freedoms' as more or less selfish and irresponsible, with a few exceptions (Kingmaker is a perfect exception, as the 'adventurers' are making new territories safe for new communities and families, which is 100% within his purview, and, even if the adventurers don't settle down immediately, they've greatly served his interests on a larger scale, and, like most immortal gods, he's probably acutely aware of the 'big picture' that might be served by the occasional adventuring priest who doesn't stay at home to be a dad, or a mom).
Beyond the comment suggesting that sexism from a good deity is alright, but only if men are on the losing end...
I haven't really seen Erastil plotting to kill Iomedae. In fact it seems more like that, if he was present and she needed help, he would give her aid despite having different opinions on some matters. He doesn't even seem to say that she (or any of the other good gods) are not good because they don't hold the same beliefs that he does.
His representation seems willing to offer aid to those that need it and seems not completely prejudiced against those that live their lives differently than he believes is best. On the other hand, those who are arguing against this character seem to give him less than he offers.
There seems to be that assumption that, if one believes in the mentioned gender roles, your alignment can't be good (which has the side bonus of implying that a bunch of people in real life aren't really good as well no matter how kind they are because of one opinion they hold). The depiction of Erastil actually seems nicer to those who hold different opinions than a few of the posts set against the fictional character right now.
If someone doesn't want to purchase the adventure paths because of this, I'm sorry? Sadly I am moved by that decision just as much by someone deciding now to buy APs because they have homosexual characters in them.
Political uncorrectness is welcomed in Golarion. I don't understand why people expect ''modern'' societal views. Erastil supports adventurers cause they help protecting the community, help its advancement into the wilds and facilitate trade.
The tenets are not sexist, it's what women generally want, a man in charge.
I quite like that Erastil has traditional views. I don't see him as sexist, but some of his clerics certainly would be. I actually think it's a nice touch, and not something you'd normally expect from a popular LG deity.
I'm a bit surprised that no one has picked up on the other implications of Erastil's writeup yet. Since he's all about family as a baby producing unit, that means that he's also somewhat anti-gay. If there ever was a god in Golarion that could house the "god hates f@@s" kooks it's Erastil.
I'm a bit surprised that you didn't read my post where I brought this up, or James Sutter's reply.
It's in this thread no less.
Also, I'm wondering what people's thoughts on Asmodeus' faith are? Asmmodeus does not allow women in positions of power in Hell, and does this specifically to establish a hierarchy and to dominate someone in any given situation.
Not only is this one of Asmodeus' tenants, but its clear that there are women that worship Asmodeus and ignore his misogynistic leanings. Meaning that even the very lawful Asmodeus makes exceptions if it suits his purposes.
Well, ole' Asmo is LE, he's expected to have views like this. A god of domination who doesn't judge people because of accidents like birth just isn't doing his job. Even if he didn't feel that way, he'd practically have to say such things, it's expected of him.
Good Grief.
This thread needs to be locked A.S.A.P.
If you don't want to encounter such things in game, why not play a male PC instead?
THAT'S SEXIST!
;-)
KaeYos
+s
I see a missed opportunity. Erastil could have been a conservative farming god that thought the man should defer to woman, and that she is the family head, etc., etc. That would at least be different.
How corporate. The man does all the hard, back-breaking work while the woman does some light work (light compared to being in the field all day) and orders everyone around.
Might be a novel idea, but not very rural. And Erastil is quite rural. He's a god of farming. The other thing would not have been Erastil.
But the way I see it, a lot of the defenders of Erastil are people that would have bought the AP anyhow, with or without the sexist stuff (and yes, "women should defer to men" is sexist). Meanwhile, a lot of the posters criticizing Sean K. Reynolds' depiction of Erastil are people that would have bought the AP but are now not going to do so (why would they, if they know their own players are going to be upset with what is printed in it even if they personally agree to change it?), and may in fact be less likely to buy stuff by Sean K. Reynolds in the future.
And that is surprising you?
The people who like Erastil the way he is (and that, by the way, is less sexist than many detractors infer) and buy those APs and other books are those who like Golarion the way it is: Gritty, dark mature, with lots of terrible and unjust things going on.Many of the critics want a game where "hard" topics like sexism, racism, homophobia, xenophobia, slavery, acceptance of diabolism, and the like just don't exist. Pathfinder is not that game. It never will be. If you want such a game and look for it in Pathfinder, you have your work cut out for you.
This problem could have been partially avoided by making Erastil LN, or giving the sexism portfolio to a non-good god, or avoided more by changing things up as in my first paragraph.
You call it problem, I call it Pathfinder's MO. Will it mean people don't like it or buy it? Sure. But it also means that other people like it all the more.
Again: If you're looking for sanitised, black-and-white worlds, you're simply wrong on Golarion.
Another option might be to quickly introduce epic rules to allow for either PCs killing Erastil
Two things why this won't happen:
Gods aren't killable by PCs (another basic concept behind Pathfinder), and killing a good (or even non-evil) being (deity or otherwise) because you disagree with some of his views is an evil act. You want to send evildoers to "fix" a "non-good" deity? What twisted sort of logic is that?
Anyhow, I think I personally will save my money and avoid these adventure paths. I can do a better job of not pissing off my players by sticking with a homebrew.
Good luck and goodbye.
But I guess that's the risk of writing for the American market, where nipples are bad and spilled guts are OK
Now that you mention it: Pathfinder needs more nipples.
and any attempt to make something that is supposed to mirror pseudo-medieval society and yet isn't carebear-level fluffy at the same time results in people crying outrage (anybody remember the "sexist anti-female Seoni fascist postcard" ?).
Fondly! :)
I think the funnier thing was the Grand Theft Auto Hot Coffee Mod.
Hm... is there any public outrage at what is in Red Dead Redemption - the official game, not a third party inofficial mod - yet? Or did they sanitise the US version?
I guess I just don't see it in what you wrote. To me, at least, alignment requires a little more than good results.
Yeah, there need to be good intentions. And there totally are. He promotes family values. He wants his followers to have families, to raise children, to work together for the betterment of all. Have strong communities where you keep the peace and make sure nobody is starving or freezing.
Erastil doesn't fight evil on any of the terms required
What terms are that? This is Pathfinder, not Crusade: the Holy War Game. Nobody is required to fight. Erastil is not a warrior or crusader. He leaves that to others. He just wants people having a good life in peace.
If anything, violence should be the last resort, not a requirement, for "good" behaviour.
doesn't try to make things better
Except in the way it counts. Try not to starve on your lofty ideals, and if you are, enter a community where Erastil holds sway: They will give you food and shelter (and a good talking to to get the silly out of your head).
and supporting of other people is far too easily seen as being done out of tradition rather than out of a desire to Do The Right Thing.
What you see doesn't really matter as to his intentions, though, now does it. It's the thought and intention that counts, not the prejudice of others.
"He helps others in need, but we all agree that he does it to seem like a charitable guy to others, so we decided he won't get any Brownie Points out of it on Judgement Day" Is exactly how it does not work.
Furthermore, his ethos supports the existence of Lawful Evil clerics
There can be no evil clerics of Erastil. They need to be LG, LN or NG. That's how it works.
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I haven't really seen Erastil plotting to kill Iomedae. In fact it seems more like that, if he was present and she needed help, he would give her aid despite having different opinions on some matters. He doesn't even seem to say that she (or any of the other good gods) are not good because they don't hold the same beliefs that he does.
When you read what he supposedly thinks about here, you get a strong vibe of admiration. He's confused she doesn't look for a husband to bear children, but he credits her with countless lives saved.
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Just chiming in to say.
I'm currently playing a Halfling Paladin of Erastil, a shepherd called to do good works. He left a sweetheart behind back home and writes her regularly, she's a good match and when he retires they'll get married and run the farm.
Or at least so he thinks.
My little halfling paladin (named Shepherd by the by) is homosexual, but either doesn't know it/can't it admit it. This is going to absolutely be a central issue to his character.
Personally I disagree with Erastil's philosophy, but from the perspective of a story teller, and reader it's awesome.
Some people want to play Tiefling Paladins of Iomedae (famous for her hatred of infernal beings). Imperfections and contradictions are the spaces that players and GMs need to generate good stories.
If every LG God reads:
"Deity X believes in doing what's Right and fighting what's Wrong" you don't have a definition that you can use to interact with the game world.
Back to my character:
He treats women with absolute respect and courtesy. Like a gentleman should.
He acts very masculine, he's basically a cowboy transposed into a fantasy setting.
He believes in the tenets of his god. Absolutely, but when it conflicts with his personal needs and emotions it will cause a CONFLICT and I'm not sure where the character will go from there.
And that's exciting.
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Congratulations Paizo for having courage to show a world that there are good people (or gods) who aren´t morally perfect. I support you even more with each gay, flawed-in-views or the like NPCs.
And i agree with everything KaeYoss has said above.
And it´s not because i support sexistism, as i am agaisnt the view of the role of a man Erastil (or even Cayden Cailean) holds. I just accept that he has his opnion on the matter but on the sum of all things he does, he is still a nice guy (he only want people to be happy, he may even accept a single who has at least tried to be married but things hasn´t worked right and life made him single for life).
IMHO,
The god advocates specific societal roles for each gender as well as the subjugation of one gender by the other; that's the definition of sexism. Some may see the fact that he advocates roles for each gender as somehow egalitarian, but the roles themselves aren't equal.
Ambrus, you need to go back to the dictionary. Deferring to another does not equal subjugation.
My wife defers to me in matters of finance. Why? Because I'm the math nerd. She is not subjugated by me. She also defers to me in matters of the kitchen, because I'm the better cook. I defer to her when it comes to parenting, because reading Lovecraft and Howard to a nine month old isn't as productive as you might think. Plus, I was under the mistaken impression that five pairs of clothing for the infant would be enough. Turns out I was wrong, but it didn't matter because my wife was in charge of baby clothes.
At work, I defer to my boss. I am not subjugated by my boss. There are roles at my employer that exist for the success of the company.
Playing 3.5/Pathfinder, I defer to the DM, I am not subjugated by him.
You need to relax a bit (in my day it was called "chill out") and realize that sometimes a made-up fantasy world is just a made-up fantasy world.
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Ambrus, you need to go back to the dictionary. Deferring to another does not equal subjugation.My wife defers to me in matters of finance. Why? Because I'm the math nerd. She is not subjugated by me. She also defers to me in matters of the kitchen, because I'm the better cook. I defer to her when it comes to parenting, because reading Lovecraft and Howard to a nine month old isn't as productive as you might think. Plus, I was under the mistaken impression that five pairs of clothing for the infant would be enough. Turns out I was wrong, but it didn't matter because my wife was in charge of baby clothes.
At work, I defer to my boss. I am not subjugated by my boss. There are roles at my employer that exist for the success of the company.
Playing 3.5/Pathfinder, I defer to the DM, I am not subjugated by him.
You need to relax a bit (in my day it was called "chill out") and realize that sometimes a made-up fantasy world is just a made-up fantasy world.
Well put Doug.
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This discussion has really blown things out of proportion. It’s unfortunate (and perhaps somewhat understandable) that the OP and some of his players have been turned off by the description of Erastil and the implication that he is sexist, but people;
Someone who believes in strong, safe communities, close family bonds, the growing and storing of food to make sure no one starves, helping those in need, raising happy children, standing up to bullies, etc etc, is pretty much the poster child for Lawful Good;
A character flaw or old fashioned attitude towards things does not necessarily make an otherwise good person (or deity) not good;
Sexism is not nice or particularly palatable to most of us (raised, for the most part in modern ‘western’ societies), but clearly defined gender roles and the idea of the man as head of the household are an older tradition, and would not have been seen as unusual, wrong or sexist at the time and place they sprang from – Erastil is an old god from those old traditions;
As someone much wiser than I pointed out up-thread, a priest or worshipper of a god need not hold exactly the same belief as the god (hence clerics do not need to be exactly the same alignment as their god), so a character can follow Erastil without believing in traditional gender roles;
As Doug’s Workshop pointed out above, “defer to and support” does not equal “be subject to” or imply that a wife should stay in an abusive relationship etc. Reading the rest of the article clearly implies that Erastil would expect a man to protect, provide for and be kind-hearted towards his wife and family – a “sexist” gender role perhaps, but not a role which is in anyway abhorrent or even that unusual in a modern setting;
While most of us (and I’m sure most of the writers and developers at Paizo) have little patience for sexism (or racism, or the idea of slavery, or religious intolerance, of killing people and taking their stuff) in our real lives, many of us like our fantasy gritty, and like some of the challenges and trials that our characters face, or at least the world they live in, to reflect real attitudes and real problems;
Believing in traditional, clearly defined gender roles does not always equal sexism;
If you don’t like this part of Erastil’s description, feel free to ignore it for your game;
If you can’t ignore it, and it has ruined Erastil for you, change his importance in the Adventure Path – he is actually far less integral to the Path than a casual read of the first adventure might indicate (and the religion’s role in that adventure can easily be downplayed or changed);
If no good characters had character flaws, the game would be pretty boring.
Congratulations Paizo for having courage to show a world that there are good people (or gods) who aren´t morally perfect. I support you even more with each gay, flawed-in-views or the like NPCs.
And i agree with everything KaeYoss has said above.
And it´s not because i support sexistism, as i am agaisnt the view of the role of a man Erastil (or even Cayden Cailean) holds. I just accept that he has his opnion on the matter but on the sum of all things he does, he is still a nice guy (he only want people to be happy, he may even accept a single who has at least tried to be married but things hasn´t worked right and life made him single for life).
IMHO,
+1, I think very few people infact support sexism, even less so among people playing (or designing)fantasy games (since they are the smartest, most enlightened and nicest.. in short we rock), but I do like to have these elements in my campaigns and I know for a fact many people do, even if they do not agree with those elements in the 'Real World'..
What I can imagine is disapointment with a deity you imagined differently and build your character around, just work with your DM to work out a suitable compromise which fits your tastes, replace or ignore certain parts of his dogma. The book isnt sacred.. well not exactly dont treat it like the bible or do if you are an atheist like me, take what you like and ignore what you dislike.
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But I guess that's the risk of writing for the American market, where nipples are bad and spilled guts are OK, and any attempt to make something that is supposed to mirror pseudo-medieval society and yet isn't carebear-level fluffy at the same time results in people crying outrage (anybody remember the "sexist anti-female Seoni fascist postcard" ?).
Hehe, I love that line.
If no good characters had character flaws, the game would be pretty boring.
I would add a bit about alignment debates here too. In nearly every alignment debate I've seen (and it has been many), there are players who I think have an overly fragile view of what constitutes Good. A character participates in a morally questionable activity and some DM is changing their alignment from good to neutral or even evil. One deviation from the straight and extremely narrow path and the character is falling from grace, kicked out of the garden, whatever metaphor you like.
Being good doesn't mean a character can't have a few warts here and there, character flaws as Mothman describes them. A sin or two on their conscience. It's the general moral and personal attitude as a whole that determine the individual's alignment. And taken as a whole, Erastil's a pretty upstanding god. Lawful Good for sure.
If no good characters had character flaws, the game would be pretty boring.I would add a bit about alignment debates here too. In nearly every alignment debate I've seen (and it has been many), there are players who I think have an overly fragile view of what constitutes Good. A character participates in a morally questionable activity and some DM is changing their alignment from good to neutral or even evil. One deviation from the straight and extremely narrow path and the character is falling from grace, kicked out of the garden, whatever metaphor you like.
Being good doesn't mean a character can't have a few warts here and there, character flaws as Mothman describes them. A sin or two on their conscience. It's the general moral and personal attitude as a whole that determine the individual's alignment. And taken as a whole, Erastil's a pretty upstanding god. Lawful Good for sure.
It all depends on the deviation ofcourse and ofcourse how the character deals with their 'sins' does he seek atonement in a fashion ? or does he shrug it off and say : I am mr. perfect who has the right to judge my actions ?
Otherwise I agree, though it is a good idea if a player wants to play a good-aligned character with some 'flaws' to talk it over with the DM before he commits to it, it should not really be an excuse to play a paladin bastard whenever it is convenient.
Otherwise I agree, though it is a good idea if a player wants to play a good-aligned character with some 'flaws' to talk it over with the DM before he commits to it, it should not really be an excuse to play a paladin bastard whenever it is convenient.
Let's not even bring paladin powers into this. They are substantially more fragile than fitting within a good alignment.
As a female, I'm glad that the pathfinder setting is not so pc. It makes the setting more interesting and exiting. Don't assume that the females that play in your game would be insulted by Erastil views or be upset to play in a game with a lg god with Erastil views. I personally find this more insulting than Erastils views.
This issue actually became a plot point in a side trek for ROTR.
The characters went to a town where the Church of Erastil had been overrun by servants of Lamashtu who were slowly converting (or consuming) the townspeople.
The party cleric and paladin both realised that there was something not right about a temple to Erastil being run by two female clerics...
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My little halfling paladin (named Shepherd by the by) is homosexual, but either doesn't know it/can't it admit it. This is going to absolutely be a central issue to his character.
Shepherd: Even though you're not a follower of the Eternal Flame, you deserve redemption. Not for the fact that your heart lies elsewhere, but for the fact that you deny your heart.
He treats women with absolute respect and courtesy. Like a gentleman should.
One would expect no less from a paladin. And after all, our straight brothers are courteous to men, too...
He acts very masculine, he's basically a cowboy transposed into a fantasy setting.
Cowboy you say. They tell of a mystical mountain....
But seriously, what would make him act non-masculine. Just because he likes men doesn't mean he doesn't want one himself.
Though that does happen. Maybe because a lot of gay people are unsure about what or who they are, or fear the neat little boxes their society wants to put them in - so now they don't fit into the "straight men" box anymore, they think that maybe they should go for the "men-loving woman" box. Others, of course, genuinely feel that they have been born on the wrong side of the gender line.
He believes in the tenets of his god. Absolutely, but when it conflicts with his personal needs and emotions it will cause a CONFLICT and I'm not sure where the character will go from there.
I'm sure he will have the support of his deity. Old and set in his ways Erastil may be, but he doesn't seem like the type to leave you hanging when you need him most.
Congratulations Paizo for having courage to show a world that there are good people (or gods) who aren´t morally perfect. I support you even more with each gay, flawed-in-views or the like NPCs.
And i agree with everything KaeYoss has said above.
And it´s not because i support sexistism, as i am agaisnt the view of the role of a man Erastil (or even Cayden Cailean) holds.
I find nothing at all sexist in Cayden Cailean's outlook. He's all for adventure - in almost every meaning, but he's hardly limited to male adventurers being gallant and then having a roll in the hey with a grateful damsel just saved form distress. He is totally for adventuresses being gallant and then rolling in the hey with men they meet.
Just look at his herald - it's a female angel who acts just like that!
he may even accept a single who has at least tried to be married but things hasn´t worked right and life made him single for life).
Actually, I think he'll play matchmaker, or make his followers do that part. He won't smite you with furious anger if you never get married, but neither will he just give up.
So if you're one of those confirmed bachelors, no longer a young man, expect a cleric of Erastil dropping innocent remarks like "That Thatcher widow is a nice and friendly person. Doesn't look bad, either. *sigh* If only a kind soul would break through the the shell she has crept into ever since the tragedy with her husband when that owlbear rampaged in town..."
reading Lovecraft and Howard to a nine month old isn't as productive as you might think.
Of course not. It's the big words. You need to present the topic correctly!
And Erastil is quite rural.
Almost as rural as the Rural Juror :)
I'm happy to see that so many people have chimed in, though perhaps a bit dismayed by the reaction of some.
Just to clarify a few points that some seem to have misconstrued; I do appreciate Paizo's inclusion of controversial topics such as homosexuality and sexism into the campaign setting. I love gritty games and wouldn't prefer a completely whitewashed P.C. setting. My issue isn't with the inclusion of differing viewpoints in the campaign setting; my issue lies with assigning them to a patron that heroic characters are encouraged to follow. It seems, to me at least, needlessly divisive rather than inclusive.
Although I don't agree with this one detail, I do generally love the setting books and haven't suggested that they all be burned or reprinted nor have I insisted that anyone else change their own games to match my views. As many have suggested, I'm free to change what I don't like and, as I responded, that's exactly what I plan to do.
I also appreciate Sean, the article's author, taking the time to answer my original question which was; why does the LG god of Farming, Hunting, Trade and Family have to be written as being sexist? Although I have some trouble reconciling his answer with what I read in the article, it is his answer and is certainly valid and appreciated.
Some have suggested that I should simply relax, this being about a game and all. After reading a few dozen posts stating that same thing however, I might suggest that they're the ones who need to relax. Even if my viewpoint isn't the popular one, I do think it's important to give voice to it for the sake of highlighting what I consider an important issue and also to show those who may share the viewpoint, but who choose to remain silent, that they're not alone. But I won't belabour the point; I don't see that there's anything more to be accomplished by it.