lawful good, 5th level, kung-fu a$$ kicking member of a dwarven order dedicated to fighting aberrations, demons and other forces of twisted chaos......... thoughts for a few possible builds/feat choices? We are new to running monks and the player really wants a dwarf monk.
Sources?
Sources?
3.5 sources judiciously and pathfinder, more staying power than striker also working off of the idea of the dwarven resistance to perversion by aberrational and magical effects, also working a resistance to mental effects angle....
also any ideas on combining the ideas of specialized dwarven racial weapons and monk weapons?
dwarven Ki powers?
What manner of campaign is this going to be? Do you know if there's going to be a particularly prevalent enemy type, such as demons and aberrations? It really helps to give as much information as you can. Is this a new player?
Also, would Tome of Battle be allowed? If so, it tends to work a lot better for monks than Monk.
What manner of campaign is this going to be? Do you know if there's going to be a particularly prevalent enemy type, such as demons and aberrations? It really helps to give as much information as you can. Is this a new player?
Also, would Tome of Battle be allowed? If so, it tends to work a lot better for monks than Monk.
May I suggest a two-level dip into the Deepwarden PrC from the Races of Stone manual for the Stone Warden Ability, which allows you to use your Constitution Bonus in place of your Dexterity Bonus, if it is higher.
Edit: here's a homebrew version I cooked up. Can be ... a little unbalanced in the hands of a master player but still, without the Pounce ability the Monk is still pretty much constrained by being unable to bring the power of their Flurry against a target without risking getting hammered into the dirt before their next turn so they can run away again.
1st level: Variant Style Weapons, Unarmed Strike.
Dwarves are taught it's better to strike hard and strike well, than to try to confuse a opponent with many weaker blows. Dwarf Monks may use Warhammers, Light Picks, Heavy Picks, Hand-Axe, Dwarven Urgosh and Dwarven Double Spear as special Monk Weapons, but cannot use normal Monk Weapons with their Decisive Strike class ability, examples of such being Butterfly Swords, Nunchaku, Baki-naga or Shuriken.
4th level: Skin of Stone, Ki Strike (Magic)
Dwarves focus on defence, so rather than being taught to slow themselves in a fall, Dwarven Monks instead practice punching stone walls, being buried in mineral-rich mud and pummelling each other till they drop. This punishing regimein eventually toughens the Monk's skin to all but the deadliest of blows. Dwarven Monks who take this level variant do not gain Slow Fall, and they add their Constitution bonus to AC, rather than their Dexterity.
12th level:Teeth of the Earth.
Dwarven Monks often fight underground in narrow tunnels or grand caverns. Rather than the ability to go to the enemy in the blink of a eye, the Dwarven Monk is trained to focus his or her Ki into the very stone around her, creating a effect identical to the Spike Stones spell, thereby making it costly for the enemy to come towards the Monk. The caster level for this effect is one-half the Monk Level, rounded down. This effect only works on Unworked or Natural Stone surfaces, and a Dwarf Monk cannot move through his own Spike Stones effect.
Couple brief thoughts (caveats: I am not an optimizer, and I don't have a lot of splats):
Dwarves get that nice bonus to CMD vs bull rush, etc. As monks can also get some combat maneuvers for bonus feats, I might milk up the concept and make a "bigger they are, harder they fall" dwarf who is great at disabling others while never risking falling himself.
If he belongs to monster hunting society, perhaps a dip into ranger is worth it for some favored enemy bonuses--this'll reflect the flavor and give the monk a few more unusual but useful options.
I'd go for high str, con, and wis and not worry about the other stats much. I know a lot of people want monks to have a high dex to boost their AC (and ranged attacks if they're going that route) but with a dwarf where you already have a constitution bonus, I'd just aim on getting HP as high as possible. He might get hit more often, but it should still take forever to drop him. (And if you do dip into Ranger, you'll get Endurance, so go ahead and take Die Hard so that when he does drop, he is still hard to kill.)
I'll be ready to plant my fist in the face o' whatever demonic beasties ye put in front of me!
What manner of campaign is this going to be? Do you know if there's going to be a particularly prevalent enemy type, such as demons and aberrations? It really helps to give as much information as you can. Is this a new player?
Also, would Tome of Battle be allowed? If so, it tends to work a lot better for monks than Monk.
we have tome of battle but have not used it before.......
campaign background: yes demons and aberrations as main foes.The plot is centered around closing gates, portals and holes in fabric of the prime material world. The campaign starts in peaceful yet fascist, low magic world. This is actually a pocket dimension in one of the 9 hells. (kinda of like "Faerie" in the sandman comics)
The characters and their countrymen in this mini-world are the descendants of people who made a deal with the Devil (Asmodeus) to escape their world when the demon worshippers accidentally opened the wrong gate and let in Cthulhu/far realms-ish reality warping madness. Part of the story is the players rediscovering their true history and saving the souls of the people. Bit of a planescape flavor with dimension hopping, sigil, lots of celestial and infernal cameos, seeking to find the artifact (a gong or bell that must be struck just right at the etheric core of the planet) that will "resound with the keynote of creation and restore the natural planar harmonics of the world" and hopefully renegotiate that deal with ol' Asmodeus.
The PC's are two monks (one dwarven, one human, a celestial (asgardian flavor) barbarian and a druid. Each has a bit of a sorceror bloodline thing going on with minor "bonus powers".
Hrm. Well, can't rightly recommend ToB in the middle of standard melee, though the unarmed Swordsage adaptation is still worth a look, and standard Swordsage is pretty much a must if you're gonna go for a weapon-using kung fu type.
Anyways, if you want to go Monk, pretty much stop thinking about weapons. There are a few exceptions, but in general, Monk weapons suck. The big draw for the Monk is the scaling unarmed damage, and if you use weapons, you're chucking that out a window and may as well go with pretty much any other melee class under the sun.
Now, I'll point you to Treantmonk's Pathfinder-only Monk guide and the 3.5 Monk Handbook... unfortunately, the latter doesn't cite sources.
Two feats that are pretty much must-haves for Monks are Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual/Bestiary) and later Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), to get that unarmed damage up.
Also, the key to a good Monk is generally to take the fewest Monk levels possible and multiclass out as fast as you can. Ascetic Hunter (Complete Adventurer) lets Monk and Ranger levels stack for determining unarmed damage, so that you can get out of Monk very fast, but it's kinda a mixed bag; the combat styles are useless to you, and there aren't a lot of alternate class features that replace them. Then again, if you get the Throwing enhancement on your unarmed strikes, and then take the ranged style, you could well go around killing people by flicking your beard hair at them, and that's classy. Ascetic Rogue (CAdv again) is similar, but with Rogue. Ascetic Stalker (Complete Scoundrel) is, again, similar but with Ninja, which isn't a very good class.
Monk1/Ranger5 or Monk2/Ranger4 make it really easy to get into Deepwarden at level 7, or to get into Fist of the Forest as soon as you get the feats.
Lords of Madness may be a good place to look for anti-aberration measures.
Two feats that are pretty much must-haves for Monks are Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual/Bestiary) and later Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), to get that unarmed damage up.
Depending on how close you want to stick to PRPG, Improved NAtural Attack is now specifically not allowed for monks, common sense dictates Superior Unarmed Strike would be not allowed either to boost damage.
Depending on how close you want to stick to PRPG, Improved NAtural Attack is now specifically not allowed for monks, common sense dictates Superior Unarmed Strike would be not allowed either to boost damage.
The latter is a terrible ruling in direct contradiction to the needs of the game and the written rules and ignores the fact that the Monk is still a pretty crappy class that needs that feat just to keep up. Further, it has no bearing on Superior Unarmed Strike, which very specifically applies to a Monk's unarmed strike and it would be terribly inappropriate to scratch that out, a completely baseless decree.
thanks for the ideas, and guide links, yeah lords of madness to look for some feats and class features, I like the stone skin con bonus to AC thing, and yeah improved natural attack I would allow, if the player wants to burn a feat on it.........
and these are mostly newbies and 1 guy who played a lot about 10 years ago, they need all the help they can get without giving them too many abilities and making it confusing.......they are probably 1-2 levels tougher than standard by the book characters of the same level...
It's very hard to multiclass a monk without losing some substantial oomph to the class features. 1 level of ranger wouldn't be too bad. If the monk class is just for exotic flavor, you might consider just taking just a level or two of monk and sticking with ranger. Flurry and TWF are essentially the same, so you might even be able to just take improved unarmed strike as a ranger and select flavorful fighting-style feats, especially if you plan to use an urgosh or battle-axe rather than fists. In any case if you multiclass monk, some of your class features are going to be problematic to make work well after a few levels.
It's very hard to multiclass a monk without losing some substantial oomph to the class features. 1 level of ranger wouldn't be too bad. If the monk class is just for exotic flavor, you might consider just taking just a level or two of monk and sticking with ranger. Flurry and TWF are essentially the same, so you might even be able to just take improved unarmed strike as a ranger and select flavorful fighting-style feats, especially if you plan to use an urgosh or battle-axe rather than fists. In any case if you multiclass monk, some of your class features are going to be problematic to make work well after a few levels.
Actually, it's quite easy to retain features while multiclassing, mostly because the bulk of them either come and stay or just aren't all that critical. Really, the main draw is the unarmed damage and wisdom to AC, which you retain. Between a Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike, that's +9 to your effective Monk level. One level of Fist of the Forest boosts damage a step of progression, which is another +4, for an effective +13 levels to your Monk progression before considering base levels. Flurry's always solid, even at the level 1 version, Stunning Fist isn't all that great anyways unless you really focus on it, Evasion's always nice, bonus feats are always nice, fast movement's always nice, Still Mind's always nice, having your fists considered magic is always nice- none of those become watered-down, and any seven-level mix of Ranger and Monk via Ascetic Hunter (or Rogue and Monk via Ascetic Rogue, but hunter's probably more relevant- I'd suggest Monk2/Ranger5 for Evasion and a second favored enemy) with a level of Fist of the Forest with the aforementioned goodies is going to cap your unarmed damage by level 20, which just means that Flurry, which was already good, just isn't quite as good, which is no huge loss. The extra attack from 11th-level flurry just ain't worth an extra 7-10 levels of Monk.
Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike don't stack. its been brought up many times before
Hrm? Where's it say that? I've never heard such a thing. And some quick Googling and handbook checks seem to agree.
At any rate, three levels of Fist of the Forest tack on another four levels' worth of advancement anyways.
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.something I thought would be a cool concept is a Dwarven monk wielding the Dorn-Dergar from the Dwarves of Golarion book.
Dwarven Dorn-Dergar, this exotic weapon is a 10' long metal chain with a round ball of solid iron around the size of a large fist. By adjusting the slack of the chain, the weapon can be used either with or without reach. Changing between using it as a normal weapon and a reach weapon is a move action. (Dwarves can treat this as a marital weapon). A medium-sized Dorn-Dergar does a 1d10 damage. Plus, there is a feat to make it even more effective.
Ask the DM about making this a monk weapon for your home campaign.
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Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike don't stack. its been brought up many times beforeHrm? Where's it say that? I've never heard such a thing. And some quick Googling and handbook checks seem to agree.
At any rate, three levels of Fist of the Forest tack on another four levels' worth of advancement anyways.
something about both the item and feat reference your actual Monk level so they don't stack together.
also page 21 of the 3.5 FAQ
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
"Does a monk with a monk’s belt and the Superior Unarmed
Strike feat benefit from both, or does just the highest benefit
apply?
In this case, the better benefit will prevail. These effects
technically do not have a bonus, so they would not use the
stacking rules. One effect will end up overshadowing the other."
its also why you don't see the combo in optimized builds.
but yeah, FotF is an awesome class
Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike don't stack. its been brought up many times beforeHrm? Where's it say that? I've never heard such a thing. And some quick Googling and handbook checks seem to agree.
At any rate, three levels of Fist of the Forest tack on another four levels' worth of advancement anyways.
something about both the item and feat reference your actual Monk level so they don't stack together.
also page 21 of the 3.5 FAQ
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
"Does a monk with a monk’s belt and the Superior Unarmed
Strike feat benefit from both, or does just the highest benefit
apply?
In this case, the better benefit will prevail. These effects
technically do not have a bonus, so they would not use the
stacking rules. One effect will end up overshadowing the other."its also why you don't see the combo in optimized builds.
but yeah, FotF is an awesome class
huh. that sucks. oh well, live and learn. Besides that caveat have a look at the thread about Unarmed Strike Damage and Fist of the Forest on how to max out your unarmed strike damage. I'd link it but the link's broken dammit. To prevent your DM having a heart attack tho, don't try the Unearthed Arcana or Weapons of Legacy cheese. Honestly, you don't have to anyway, just get your monk unarmed damage to 20th lvl.
something about both the item and feat reference your actual Monk level so they don't stack together.
also page 21 of the 3.5 FAQ
And the FAQ directly contradicts CustServ, making it a wash. So really, it comes down to a non-ruling from WotC. The Monk class needs all the help it can get, so I'd go with CustServ, here.
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And the FAQ directly contradicts CustServ, making it a wash. So really, it comes down to a non-ruling from WotC. The Monk class needs all the help it can get, so I'd go with CustServ, here.something about both the item and feat reference your actual Monk level so they don't stack together.
also page 21 of the 3.5 FAQ
i cant find that anywhere. i have found people saying sustserv has ruled it both ways.
i also found:By the wording of both, it's questionable whether or not it stacks with SUS. On the WotC and ENWorld boards the general consensus is "no."
the UA one actually increases by class level, so that ones legit, if you can talk a DM into letting you take the Scion class
I agree, but i've known a few DM's with an issue with UA, 'tis all.
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also any ideas on combining the ideas of specialized dwarven racial weapons and monk weapons?
dwarven Ki powers?
I had just made a dwarven monk NPC myself a few days ago! There is a feat from the Eberron campaign book that allows a monk to use a Two-Bladed Sword, Longsword, or Long Spear as a special monk weapon. I customized it for use with the dorn-degar from the Dwarves of Golarion book. Maybe you can workout something like that with your DM.