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I've done some searching. The treantmonk guide assumes that haste and the extra attack from burning a ki point stack. I've found a few other threads that are arguments one way or the other. I checked the d20 pathfinder faq and class entry, but didn't see any relevant entries.
So. I'm hoping for an official weigh-in, or a link to one, so I can reputably either include or exclude it in a dpr comparison build.
Any holy grails out there?
I am pretty much convinced it stacks, unless stated explicitly it doesn't, it seems to be the intent to give the monks core abilities a boost for 1 round. It seems it is intended to stack as good an argument I have really.
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Yeah, that's kind of my view too.
Haste doesn't stack with itself. The spell mentions it's not cumulative with similar effects, but I read that more to mean magical items and what-have-you that are haste-derived. Still, I'm trying to be as legitimate and accurate about this as possible :D
Well the Ki point extra attack is a Supernatural ability, non magical. So I don't see any reason why they wouldn't work together. Now you have me thinking a 4th level monk throwing 5 shuriken a round if they can manage to get a haste. b:D
btw, Supernatural abilities are magical (p.554).
OP, i know you've read the description but it pretty clearly states it: This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon.
As the monk ability is an supernatural ability we'll have a look at p.554 desc... A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled
and is not subject to counterspells.
Seems clear to me. Sorry for the monk hate ;)
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Ki point for additional attack, haste, flurry of blows, point blank shot, rapid shot, and deadly aim.
+2/+2 becomes
0/0/0/0/0 (+1 point blank shot, -2 deadly aim, -2 rapid shot, +1 haste)
dealing 1d2+str+4*deadly aim
Give the monk a str of 16, dex of 14, and you're looking at five attacks at +2, each dealing 1d2+7 if they hit :D
edit:
S'cool Tanis :) I'm just hoping for an *official* weigh-in. Discussion is good to help draw it in.
*continues plotting*
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Ki point for additional attack, haste, flurry of blows, point blank shot, rapid shot, and deadly aim.
+2/+2 becomes0/0/0/0/0 (+1 point blank shot, -2 deadly aim, -2 rapid shot, +1 haste)
dealing 1d2+str+4*deadly aimGive the monk a str of 16, dex of 14, and you're looking at five attacks at +2, each dealing 1d2+7 if they hit :D
Now if only there was an effective way of getting enchanted shuriken.
I still take great issue with them being treated as ammo for purpose of retrieval. These things are just as if not MORE durable than throwing knives.
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Greater magic weapon = 50 +5 shirikens for 20 hours. The best way to get magic enhancements on ammo. See also, keen weapon spell.
This is definatly a vague area that could use a little dev illumination. Haste is magic, Ki is magical in nature, thus you can make an argument that they are both from the same source, IE magic.
The rules explicitly state that Speed weapons and haste do not stack, , but no where do the rules explicitly state that Ki pool and haste do not stack.
Sitting firmly on the fence with this one.
To further confuse things...
The Monk's speed boost does not stack with virtually any other magical source of speed boost.
Now, this might set a precedent, but it can still be taken two ways:
1. Monk abilities are not supposed to stack with the same thing in magical form.
2. The Speed boost specifically states it's an enhancement bonus, where as the Ki bonus does not state that it's a haste effect directly.
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Sorry for making things even less clear.
btw, Supernatural abilities are magical (p.554).
OP, i know you've read the description but it pretty clearly states it: This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon.
As the monk ability is an supernatural ability we'll have a look at p.554 desc... A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled
and is not subject to counterspells.Seems clear to me. Sorry for the monk hate ;)
Hmm... I think I would rule with the monk on this one. The haste spell allows him to make an extra attack when taking a full attack action. The monk ability essentially adds an extra attack to the flurry of blows ability ("can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack"). So one effect changes flurry of blows, one effect changes the full attack action so I don't see why they wouldn't stack.
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Hmm... I think I would rule with the monk on this one. The haste spell allows him to make an extra attack when taking a full attack action. The monk ability essentially adds an extra attack to the flurry of blows ability ("can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack"). So one effect changes flurry of blows, one effect changes the full attack action so I don't see why they wouldn't stack.
The problem is that flurry of blows is in fact a full-round action.
The Monk's speed boost does not stack with virtually any other magical source of speed boost.
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2. The Speed boost specifically states it's an enhancement bonus, where as the Ki bonus does not state that it's a haste effect directly.
This seems the best explanation for that matter. It's certainly simpler and more clear than interpreting it to mean "monk powers never stack with any vaguely similar magic".
I'd have to say that it does not stack:
A magical ability that adds an additional attack at the highest attack bonus with no penalty to attacks? Which am I describing here, haste or ki pool? Answer: both. That strikes me as making them "similar abilities" (contrast to Rapid Shot, which is nonmagical and applies a penalty to all attacks that round, or the Animal Fury rage power, which is nonmagical and grants an additional nonweapon attack at a severe attack penalty).
To further confuse things...
The Monk's speed boost does not stack with virtually any other magical source of speed boost.
Now, this might set a precedent, but it can still be taken two ways:
1. Monk abilities are not supposed to stack with the same thing in magical form.
2. The Speed boost specifically states it's an enhancement bonus, where as the Ki bonus does not state that it's a haste effect directly.
.
Sorry for making things even less clear.
it is a good point, if the move enhance doesnt stack with haste why would the additional attack. It might still be useful with that dreaded monk spell resistance he might miss out on haste, it still seems an enhancement on flurry of blows rather than attacks in general.. if that makes sense.
Undecided wether it should or should not stack, I'd welcome some Paizo sage advice to this thread.
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Mmm... that's so general though as to not really describe what's going on.
You can make a similar generalization about a magical ability that improves damage when attacking. Too many things fit that bill.
Ki strike provides an additional attack only on a monk's flurry attack. The Ki pool is a supernatural ability. Magical, yes. Spell-like? No.
Haste provides an additional attack with no restriction like the flurry of blows one. Haste is a magical spell. It provides additional bonuses including a dodge bonus, an attack roll bonus, and a bonus on reflex saves. It also provides an enhancement bonus of 30 feet to movement speeds.
The ki ability use provides none of those benefits.
Haste specifically mentions that it doesn't stack with multiple haste effects. Magical items created using the haste spell also mention they don't stack.
The ki ability never even mentions that it doesn't stack. To me, this smacks of an intent to limit extra attacks which was specifically excluded from the ki ability.
Medusa's wrath is a similar example. It's a feat that potentially provides two additional attacks, and mentions nothing about haste.
Multiple attacks from a high BAB.
Fighting with two weapons.
Flurry itself.
Cleave.
Great Cleave.
Now, the other side:
Divine power, a spell, specifically mentions that its extra attack doesn't stack with similar abilities such as haste or speed weapons.
It seems to me that spells, and subsequent items made from those spells, aren't designed to allow you extra attacks. It also seems to me that this limitation is designed specifically for spells and magic items so you can't buy 50 +1 speed shurikans and make 50 attacks in a round. However, class abilities *such as the barbarians ability to get a bite attack, and the dragon disciples, as well as feats, are not covered. They're significantly different than spells and the associated benefits.
Still really hoping that a representative will step in and clarify one way or the other. Pretty please? :D
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action
Um... that's what I was saying. Full attack = Full round as far is my thinking goes. I am not exactly a grammar nazi, my apologies.
You're correct - look it up on the action-types pages. Full Attack = Full Round action. Same thing - different emphasis (at best). Willful negligence otherwise.
:shrugs:
This topic, though ... seems more complicated than it needs to be. Restricted to extra attack on flurry or not, it's providing an extra attack through a magical/supernatural means. When *every* other such example of stacking in the game specifically prohibits this, I'd say it's against the RAI to think that Ki Pool is somehow exempt "just because" the wording doesn't mention stack-potential.
In all classes, nearly all items, spells, and descriptions the "stack" ability is mentioned. It's specifically limiting those sorts of *extra magic attacks of speed* to a single +1 attack from ANY source, even IF multiple sources are available. D20 has gone out of it's way to limit this since 3.5 (as 3.0's was FAR more "broken" by it's function - I'm not sure I agree, but it was one of the potent and specific changes in that design). Point being: similar effects do NOT combine and D20 goes OUT OF IT'S WAY to specifically limit it, and draw attention to it.
Now, the whole reason for this thread is that Ki Pool is a new, Piazo-added feature. It's the 3.75 version, if you will. So, what's more likely? That they've reversed the principals of the D20 design teams and *want* monks to get a crazy amount of extra-stackable benefits when 99% of the game specifically prohibits this? OR ... is it likely a small bit of wording that was simply overlooked in the VAST work called the Pathfinder Role Playing Game book that could have been added for clarification had they thought this far ahead of simply dropping the change in?
For my mileage, an oversight seems more likely. It has all of the important verbage in there already: "supernatural," and "additional attack" being the primary ones here. IMO, it's looking like an oversight that rules lawyers (sorry fellas - it's what it's looking like to me at this point) are trying to exploit 'till the cows come home.
There's NO reason to exempt the monk from the same stacking limitations that every other class suffers.
That being said, I *do* believe Haste and Ki Pool *can* combine just fine - NOT for attacks, but otherwise, just fine.
* Haste effects of dodge and ref save bonus will add, so it's good for that effect.
* He can burn the Ki Pool points for +4 to AC (over-riding the +1 of Haste if he does so), but not the +1 attack (as he already has a +1 attack - it's a waste of ki to burn it this way, IMO, as the benefit is nill).
* If speed matters, he can burn Ki for +20' if needed (and get a speed enhancement anyway since that's one specific use of ki-burning).
Speaker you are likely right about the extra attack not stacking, but I am not sure anyway, I am DM most of the time and I am not trying to get an extra attack loophole in, just having some doubts wether or not it should stack and hope the paizo staff will take an interest in this thread. (since haste is probably one of the most commonly used spells across all levels, 5+ that is)
As far as the +4 AC goes it will stack with haste's +1 since they are a dodge bonus and those always stack unless noted otherwise.
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Yep, harkening back to the old "Bonuses of the same type do not stack" line, which I fully agree with.
Haste is effectively a speed bonus which provides an additional attack. So the question is whether the ki pool provides a speed bonus, or a bonus of a different type.
The ki pool can provide an additional attack
or an increase of 20 feet to speed
or a +4 bonus to ac
or a +20 bonus on acrobatics checks
or the ability to heal damage = to monk level
or the ability to use dimension door
or the ability to use etherealness
The ki pool abilities are supernatural, which means they can't be disrupted in combat, don't generally provoke attacks of opportunity, aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic. However, they don't function in antimagic areas.
They are notably different that spells. Spell-like abilities function the same way as a spell.
The abilities that the ki pool powers are varied enough that you can't draw a particular theme bonus from them, and you're left interpreting the intent of bonuses on a case by case basis.
Is the ki bonus a speed bonus? Is it a bonus similar to twf? Is it a competence bonus? If it's a speed bonus like the haste spell, then it wouldn't stack. However, if the bonus is of a different type, then it should stack.
I'm hoping the reason that someone official hasn't commented yet is because either they haven't read the post, or they haven't come to a conclusion yet :p Or they're about to put up the official faq in the next day or two and plan to post the answer there.
I can dream...
Anyhow, as the dpr numbers I'm running in the other thread show, at level 20 even with the extra attack, the fighter is coming up just a bit ahead of the monk vs the balor. Not a lot, mind you, but still there. Without the extra attack, the difference is more like 70 dpr, so I'd expect the monk attack to stack, to keep it balanced with the fighter.
@Remco: good catch on the "dodge" type thing - forgot that. ;-) So, yeah - haste or not, that +4 should stack given the over-riding rules on Dodge stacking.
@Magicdealer: again - *where* in D20 do you see ANY MORE than a +1 attack from any given source? I've NEVER seen one, and pointedly see lines on each one that limit it's use with ANY other similar effect (ie: supernatrual/magic/whatever).
I think the RAI is pretty clear here, even if the RAW has missed including the words.
:shrugs:
Either way, I'm sure the developers will make a call of some sort (likely to reinforce RAI and keep +1 attack actions at full bab to ONLY be from 1 source period), and then immediately follow it w/an "in your games, though ..." rider, allowing for house-rules (not that they *need* to do this for house rules in the first place, but if they pop in, that's what I'll expect from them on this thread).
Su/Spell-like aside, the fact that this in neutralized in an anti-magic zone ... that's damning evidence to me that "ki" is basically another way to say "magical" just flavored with eastern aesthetics. Ie: you're granting FAR too much reliance on the "ki" designation to try and work around the RAI.
Final thought: I don't think the Monk is *supposed* to "balance" with the fighter in DPR calculations. It's got it's own things, many of them supernatural/magical and that's where his/her "balance" lies. Spell Resistance, Teleporting, never aging, speaking to all things innately (EX ability oddly enough), etc, etc. They've got a LOT of weird things they do and NO ONE else does ... they're a different class. Fighters are kings of the DPR, though - it's about the *only* thing they have, really.
You can make a similar generalization about a magical ability that improves damage when attacking.
You can, but it doesn't matter because there's no restriction on stacking improved damage (aside from the bonus type stacking rules). There is a restriction on stacking extra attacks using haste. Haste says that it does not stack with similar abilities. Thus, the question is, "What is a similar ability to haste?"; I choose to define that as, "A magical effect that provides an additional attack at the highest attack bonus with no penalty to attacks," because that's what haste does with respect to additional attacks (the defense and speed bonuses aren't relevant to the discussion). With that definition, spending a ki point to get an extra attack is clearly a similar ability, and thus does not stack.
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Yep, harkening back to the old "Bonuses of the same type do not stack" line, which I fully agree with.
Haste is effectively a speed bonus which provides an additional attack. So the question is whether the ki pool provides a speed bonus, or a bonus of a different type.
The ki pool can provide an additional attack
or an increase of 20 feet to speed
or a +4 bonus to ac
or a +20 bonus on acrobatics checks
or the ability to heal damage = to monk level
or the ability to use dimension door
or the ability to use etherealnessThe ki pool abilities are supernatural, which means they can't be disrupted in combat, don't generally provoke attacks of opportunity, aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic. However, they don't function in antimagic areas.
They are notably different that spells. Spell-like abilities function the same way as a spell.
The abilities that the ki pool powers are varied enough that you can't draw a particular theme bonus from them, and you're left interpreting the intent of bonuses on a case by case basis.
Is the ki bonus a speed bonus? Is it a bonus similar to twf? Is it a competence bonus? If it's a speed bonus like the haste spell, then it wouldn't stack. However, if the bonus is of a different type, then it should stack.
I'm hoping the reason that someone official hasn't commented yet is because either they haven't read the post, or they haven't come to a conclusion yet :p Or they're about to put up the official faq in the next day or two and plan to post the answer there.
I can dream...
Anyhow, as the dpr numbers I'm running in the other thread show, at level 20 even with the extra attack, the fighter is coming up just a bit ahead of the monk vs the balor. Not a lot, mind you, but still there. Without the extra attack, the difference is more like 70 dpr, so I'd expect the monk attack to stack, to keep it balanced with the fighter.
It is an untyped bonus, which states it stacks unless specified or comes from the same thing (aka haste spell or haste ability in a weapon of speed). Since they did not state what kind of bonus it is, then it falls under untyped by RAW. The speed boost a monk can get is also untyped, while the AC bonus they can get from ki is marked as a Dodge bonus (which stacks). I think that the intent for it is to stack, otherwise they would have specified that it does not stack like they do for haste and the others. Since it is new and not a copy/paste, they had that option.
It is an untyped bonus, which states it stacks unless specified or comes from the same thing (aka haste spell or haste ability in a weapon of speed). Since they did not state what kind of bonus it is, then it falls under untyped by RAW. The speed boost a monk can get is also untyped, while the AC bonus they can get from ki is marked as a Dodge bonus (which stacks). I think that the intent for it is to stack, otherwise they would have specified that it does not stack like they do for haste and the others. Since it is new and not a copy/paste, they had that option.
Emphasis mine, BUT this is *exactly* the kind of thing to miss revision in a 500+ page book, most of which *is* a simple copy and paste of existing rules and expectations.
Here is one of *few* places where they made entirely new mechanics. IMO, it's far more likely this is an oversight in editing (ala: Rule-Lawyer Nirvana!), and far less likely some sort of intentional "make the monk cool" option.
He *is* perfectly cool as it stands - gets a full BAB-like flurry (even if denied full BAB outright), and can burn a ki-point to get an extra attack rather than say getting "speed" as an enchantment on his amulet, or something.
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This is not a shameless bump to the top of the list. Honestly, it's not. Because I do feel shame :P
Just wanted to pop in another argument.
Spells have the stacking disclaimer limitation on them when they provide an additional attack.
However, feats such as rapid shot, medusa, cleave, and so on don't have the limitation and people don't argue about feats stacking or not. Additionally, the barbarian gets a bite attack from a class ability, and people assume that stacks. It doesn't have the disclaimer against stacking either.
The haste-based limitation, I believe, only applies to spells. Feats and class abilities that provide additional attacks are assumed to work with haste, and I don't think the Ki Pool attack should be treated differently.
You're missing two obvious differences, which I have already pointed out in this thread.
One, ki pool is a magical ability, while everything else you mention is not.
Two, ki pool does not give any penalty or have any conditions, while everything else you list does.
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It's a supernatural class ability, not a spell-like one, which is an obvious difference.
Other monk SU abilities are wholeness of body, diamond body, abundant step, quivering palm, and empty body.
Ki pool does have conditions and costs. It's limited on the number of effects it can provide you, and once emptied, you lose the ki strike ability that bypasses damage reduction. Additionally, it consumes a swift action to activate one of the abilities.
You're missing two obvious differences, which I have already pointed out in this thread.
One, ki pool is a magical ability, while everything else you mention is not.
Two, ki pool does not give any penalty or have any conditions, while everything else you list does.
+1 Haste doesn't stack with similar effects. The monk's ki pool is a supernatural effect.
But..i'm repeating myself.
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I think arguments have been stated and short of an official ruling on this (Possibly the reason the devs remain quiet is because of upcoming changes in the APG) I don't think there is much discussion left to be had here.
At this point it is a DM call, and I am personally fine leaving it at that, IMO the game could use MORE DM calls if anything and rules lawyers could just suck a big fat one when their DM's realize they have to be a little more creative with the system they have been given instead of just looking it up on a table somewhere.
... IMO the game could use MORE DM calls if anything and rules lawyers could just suck a big fat one when their DM's realize they have to be a little more creative with the system they have been given instead of just looking it up on a table somewhere.
A big +1 and take a bow, my friend!
LOVE this sentiment!
Do we have an answer to this question yet?
It came up in the game last night. We have been using hero lab on the ipad and in that software, when you tick the box for Ki extra attack, it stacks with the attacks from Haste.
Most of the evidence does seem to suggest it wouldn't stack. The one thing I haven't seen anyone bring up is that ki pool burns a limited resource to grant only a single attack. Most other effects are continuous or have a duration.
Pasted from the FAQ link above (for future google searchers). This thread should probably be closed now. Thankyou.
Yes, it does