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We are aware that the monk has some issues. Primarily his damage, and his role in a party.
Below are what I find to be a few of the issues that are holding the class back from (IMO) it's true potential.
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- A D8 HD and a medium BAB progression for an unarmored melee combatant that relies heavily (Some might say entirely) on full attacks to get decent damage out. This presents a problem in that they are squishy and must be engaged with a more/less immobile target.
- His skill-set is that of a non expert, physical type. Meaning that he has just enough to be able to jump a gap, swim up a river, and generally watch his back. Beyond this they are lacking, short a little bit of flavor with the knowledge.
- To me he is built like a trapfinder, high touch ac, self heals,immunity to disease/poisons and the ability to get out of tricky situations, not to mention surviving that pit trap with ease. But without a trap detection ability they lack the basic tools to actually handle the situations.
- Next he is offered a variety of options and bonuses to his combat maneuvers to help with this aspect of combat, but again... he finds himself lacking in the raw ability to pull these off compared to his fellow martial fighter.
- I discussed upping his BAB to a full progression and while his Flurry of blows already takes advantage of this (after level 9) it does not solve problem. Taking improved natural weapon is not an option as it specifically bars you from using "natural weapons" during a flurry, meaning that unarmed strike is not a "natural weapon."
- Enchantments and enhancements.
The amulet of Mighty blows is an expensive buy. At 5000g for a +1 enhancement bonus and the same for an enhancement. While I understand the need to make expensive is a necessity as a monk can never be disarmed, this point alone prevents the class from attaining his offensive capabilities with the efficiency or speed that he the class is supposed to be known for. The cestus has been created for us by Paizo, a glove that improves unarmed damage, increases the threat range, and can be enchanted cheaply. Also counts as a monk weapon! Yippee we rejoice! But alas the interpenetration of the rules for this weapon is at best hazy. Does this replace the monks unarmed strike when he attacks with it? Does it simply improve on it? The company has remained silent on this point and the RIA is difficult to tease out.
What the point of this whole thing thread is to discuss the problems monks have, how best to work with, around, and possibly solve them. So first let me ask you.
1) What is to be done about balancing this class against say a rogue, or fighter in terms of combat usefulness? How and why?
2)How do you fix the issue of the party role, falling short of a party face, trapfinder, know-it-all, or door kicker how can a monk be useful to the group? How and why?
3) What can be done to help get his damage on par with his teammates?
Your thoughts? Suggestions? Concerns?
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The easy fix (in my mind) would be to do the following:
*Up BAB to full and HD to d10
*Replace unarmed strike damage with a bonus on damage with unarmed strikes equal to half the monk's level (minimum 1) with monk's robe increasing the damage bonus by 2. Apply half this bonus (minimum 0) to monk weapons. Also, count the monk as one size category bigger for unarmed strikes.
Do the above and a first level monk gets a 1d4+1 damage with his fists instead of 1d6 (same average). At 20th they get 1d4+10 instead of 2d10 (about 2 more average damage, not bad for a loss in maximums). This also allows them to get some use out of their monk weapons. (doing 1d6+5 instead of 1d4+10 is still a loss, but not to the point of uselessness.)
This would make them the full martial class that they are a thinly veiled version of already.
If we're wanting to make the monk more of a combat machine, there's a number of abilities they get now that can be chucked because they're just not useful. Tongue of the Sun and Moon, I'm looking squarely at you.
I really think that one of the reasons the Monk suffers is that it wants to be both a skill monkey and a combat machine at the same time. Separating out the two mindsets into separate-but-related classes might be a good idea.
One think that would be cool for both would be a non-set progression of special abilities, something like a combination of a Ranger's Combat Styles and Rogue Talents would be cool. Pick a path/style/tree/school/whatever at your first level of Monk and then at points along the way pick from a list of abilities and feats that your choice of path/style/tree/school/whatever has determined. At nifty side benefit of this would be that it would be easier for a DM to insert custom Monk "schools" into their world which use a customized list of abilities and such. Bonus.
Another thing I'd like to bring up is that Abundant Step could be made a little more useful in combat. It doesn't have to me much, maybe say the ability to make a single attack immediately afterward.
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The easy fix (in my mind) would be to do the following:
*Up BAB to full and HD to d10
*Replace unarmed strike damage with a bonus on damage with unarmed strikes equal to half the monk's level (minimum 1) with monk's robe increasing the damage bonus by 2. Apply half this bonus (minimum 0) to monk weapons. Also, count the monk as one size category bigger for unarmed strikes.Do the above and a first level monk gets a 1d4+1 damage with his fists instead of 1d6 (same average). At 20th they get 1d4+10 instead of 2d10 (about 2 more average damage, not bad for a loss in maximums). This also allows them to get some use out of their monk weapons. (doing 1d6+5 instead of 1d4+10 is still a loss, but not to the point of uselessness.)
This would make them the full martial class that they are a thinly veiled version of already.
This falls along the lines of what I was personally thinking. The full BaB I think is a must. Next order of business I think is a conversion of flurry of blows that gives them TWF for unarmed strikes and monk weapons (like it does now, but with funky math) built right into the class.
As for damage a simple fix I think is at level 4 when they get the Ki pool, allow them to add their wisdom modifier to all damage rolls with unarmed strikes as long as they retain 1 point, like for purposes of being magical.
The HD I don't see as being a big problem right now, yes they have lower health, but they can be VERY difficult to hit if they know what they are doing.
Thoughts?
I have a bunch of style feats in the vein of the Gorgon's Wrath tree. Styled after the four elements, water focuses on defense, wind focuses on defense while giving benefits to fighting multiple foes and more flurries. Earth gives another boost to CMD for not moving, and grants an ability like the decisive strike from PHB 2 as well as a more damaging flurry. Fire is supposed to be an esoteric style (ala Hokuto no Ken from Fist of the North Star), it has the ability to deal the most damage out of all the styles if the target has taken ability score damage, and the ability to deal DEX damage.
I guess since they're supposed to be an esoteric warrior with weird abilities, give them more weird stuff to do in combat that's actually useful.
A house rule I have been using with success is a swap system. Monk characters can swap out abilities for feats on a one to one basis. This helps to create different martial arts schools while still retaining some of the original intent of the monk. We have a wrestler/sambo character right now that is doing this.
Actually the only complaint i loosely agree with is the shortage o skill points.
Back in 3.5 monks became awesome when flurry was boosted. at the same time, Rangers were boosted as well, giving them higher hit dice (i might be wrong here) and 6 skills per level. This made me slightly jealous as in my mind a monk should have similar skill availability as rangers. Pathfinder fixed this to an extent by combining skills meaning a monk now gets more for less.
Monk base attack is fine as it is, flurry solves the BAB problem completely in my mind.
Monks are also really good at moving around the field of combat and assisting where they are needed. A well placed stun makes all the difference. Also monks practically get a free combat maneuver feat, you can either grapple, disarm or trip. Without the prerequisites.
Damage isn't really a problem either, you get the biggest weapon damage dice for a weapon in the game at the end. And part of being a monk is building up to this point.
All that said, this isn't supposed to be a game that is all about the combat throughput! I blame games like WoW for this. Where every character is just based on its combat role. A monk may not be the party face, but he can use another of my favorite skills, sense motive. The monk is more of an adviser in negotiations, being able to tell what the other party is scheming and advise accordingly. Dont get me wrong a monk can also be a diplomat or intimidate people.
Okay, there is one last thing (second) i can complain about the monk. In pathfinder the monk is made out as an unarmed brawler, and not much more than that. Everyone please take a step back and think back to what a monk really is, a priest. He shares the BAB of a priest, and shoul be a religious figure. The flavour text has robbed a monk of that role:
"Dotted across the landscape are monasteries-small walled cloisters inhabited by monks who pursue personal perfection through actions as well as contemplation. They train themselves warriors skilled at fighting without weapons or armor. ...(leaving out the difference between good/evil) ...An individual monk is unlikely to care passionately championing commoners or amassing wealth. She cares primarily for the perfection of her art, and thereby, her personal perfection. Her goal is to achieve a state that is beyond the mortal realm."
Actually the only complaint i loosely agree with is the shortage o skill points.
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I agree with Skull. I'm a very avid monk player and feel the monk is being hosed frequently with inadequate play support (and horrible options like the Ki Crystal (Faction Guide) don't help). But he's far from weak. He's a combat powerhouse.
- The monk has full-BAB when he needs it (in a flurry) - that his attack is slightly lower (at higher levels) for a single attack, that is neither here nor there and doesn't really matter that much.
- He makes an excellent combat maneuver specialist - okay, so a dedicated fighter has a better chance of landing a trip with a single attempt; the monk has many more attempts in a single round since he can trip (or disarm, or sunder) as part of a flurry on each of his attacks. Do the maths, and you'll see that the monk is more likely to get that crucial trip/disarm/something than anybody else (barring a barbarian that blows his strength surge for one maneuver)
- Monk's make incredible grapplers - not quite as likely (but close) to initiate a grapple as a dedicated fighter; but far far more likely to maintain and capitalize on the grapple than anybody else
Finally, if you're still down, consider a guided amulet of mighty fists. Straight from Paizo's published enhancement list, it is monk gold and solves the monk's MADness in one affordable 5000gp swoop. Sure... it makes all other enhancements to the monk's amulet more expensive; but it goes a long way to make the monk's attributes more manageable.
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The monk has full-BAB when he needs it (in a flurry) - that his attack is slightly lower (at higher levels) for a single attack, that is neither here nor there and doesn't really matter that much.
This actually borders on outright incorrect. Any time the monk needs to use their movement (a unique, though only "moderate" class feature) they have to use their lesser BAB, which includes any time they don't start next to their opponent. If they get an Attack of Opportunity they need to use their lower BAB (note that combat reflexes is a bonus feat). Cleaving uses normal BAB. Whirlwind attack uses normal BAB. Vital strike uses normal BAB. Hell, if they're trying to throw a grappling hook over a wall they need to use their lower BAB to hook it to the right spot.
Monk is a full BAB class that gets nerfed to a 3/4 BAB because they have "mystical" powers.On the skill point issue, I could easily see them getting another 2 per level without causing any problems.
Considering how horridly situational most monk abilities are, and how NOT situational the corresponding fighter ability is, I have no qualm boosting the monk at least a little bit. The HD boost will be needed as they'll get targeted a bit more (1HP/level isn't huge).
Monk Gets a nice AC boost when not wearing armor, Fighter can wear armor that will most likely give more AC than the monk will get from wisdom. The fighter will almost certainly be about 4 points ahead, but bracers of armor +8 bring this back into the monk's favor especially in light of the monk AC applying to both touch and CMD.
Monk would get a total +6 damage boost with unarmed strikes versus normal one-handers (2d10 averages 10.5, 1d8 averages 4.5). At best they're 8 ahead of most light weapons. Fighters get +4 attack, +4 damage (weapon training 4). The latter is almost certainly better, especially since the monk would only get that for unarmed strikes where a fighter can use whatever, including a 1d4 18-20.
(Note: the above paragraph assumes that +1 to-hit is approximately worth 2 damage, so +4 atk = +8 dmg equivalent, for a total of +12, or four ahead of monk).
Monk movement eventually hits 90ft, the fighter simply gets moving a full speed in full plate. Monk definitely wins, but mobility above about 40ft rarely comes in handy, especially since teleportation is available for long-distance travel by the time the monk gets most of their movement. I call this a minimal win on the monk's side.
After the above, it's just miscellaneous specials and two extra good saves versus 11 bonus feats and a boost versus fear. The extra +12 to saves is arguably worth roughly 6 feats, but bravery +4 is also worth one and the lack of choice makes those "6 feats" worth of saves only half a useful. I put the fighter as +9. Flurry grants free TWF, so fighter is now 6 feats ahead. Between free and bonus feats and evasion monk gets another 10 feats, but lack of (or heavily restricted) choice in this matter also reduces their usefulness to be about equal to those 6 the fighter gets.
So now it comes to down a myriad of situational abilities, a save or die versus fort (usually the highest save of a monster), an extra 1/2 str mod on offhand strikes and ~7 points better AC (average) versus Armor Mastery (5/- DR), Weapon Mastery (+1 multiplier and auto-confirmation for chosen weapon), the ability to swap out bonus feats, the extra four damage equivalent the monk couldn't match above, availability of better feats and the extra crit threat range most fighter's will have (assuming built as TWF; 15-20 is vastly superior to 19-20). The last point is made more important thanks to weapon mastery.
The above comparisons assume the monk has a full BAB and d10 HD. If not also give the fighter "+1HP/HD" advantage and "+5 on attacks rolls on standard action attacks and AoOs." If you object to treated restricted feat choice as being less of a feat, then give the monk a +7 feats. It probably comes out equal if you make that assumption (which I would argue is a false assumption).
PS: If you allow the "Guided" property a monk could indeed get frighteningly powerful as they go from crazy MAD to manageable MAD with a heavily emphasized stat, basically like a fighter.
A monk has a pretty extensive package of skills and abilities, if you want to find a solution for a lack of damage output you should start by stripping some abilities first. Problem with the monk is people want it to do too much.
Try reducing move bonus, remove one good save category, reduce skill points to 2 + int, remove some spell-like and supernatural abilities.
With changes like that you might consider raising it to a full BAB class, maybe.
This actually borders on outright incorrect. Any time the monk needs to use their movement (a unique, though only "moderate" class feature) they have to use their lesser BAB, which includes any time they don't start next to their opponent. If they get an Attack of Opportunity they need to use their lower BAB (note that combat reflexes is a bonus feat). Cleaving uses normal BAB. Whirlwind attack uses normal BAB. Vital strike uses normal BAB. Hell, if they're trying to throw a grappling hook over a wall they need to use their lower BAB to hook it to the right spot.
Monk is a full BAB class that gets nerfed to a 3/4 BAB because they have "mystical" powers.
I agree that it isn't perfect - but I can live with the imperfection. Comparing results at level 20 is a bit far off, rather go with something down the middle, like level 10. A guided monk can compete quite well in the DPR olympics, reaching about 52 DPR while simultaneously having possibly the highest AC and Saves of any contender.
I don't really ask for more than that from the core class. What I *do* want more of - for the monk - is options. Good feat and item choices, and maybe some alternate builds.
We'll have to wait and see what the APG brings us, but the kind of thing I'm hoping for is style feats along this line:
<Generic Monk Style> (Monk)
Benefit: +2 to <skillX>. Add <feat1> to the list of monk bonus feats at level 1, <feat2> to the list of monk bonus feats at level 2, <feat3> to the list of monk bonus feats at level 6, <feat4> to list of monk bonus feats at level 10.
For example:
(Monk)
Benefit: +2 to Sense Motive. Add Toughness to the list of monk bonus feats at level 1, Die Hard to the list of monk bonus feats at level 2, Iron Will to the list of monk bonus feats at level 6, Greater Iron Will to the list of monk bonus feats at level 10.
And who knows? The monk is, in many ways, close to a full-BAB class; perhaps it is enough to get a feat that says "for attacks a monk's BAB is treated as his monk level". It's not much of a leap. :)
I have a problem with basing the viability of a class on a single snapshot level, regardless of where that level is, advancement-wise. I want a class to be viable and capable of performing as advertised across all levels.
I'm also going to side with Remco and say that people are really wanting too much out of the Monk, at times. That's why I mentioned that I thought the Monk should be split into two separate but related classes. Think of it like the James Bond submarine car from The Spy Who Loved Me. On screen, it looked like it was one Lotus that did everything, but really it took two different units to perform as shown in their respective departments (well, and a third "shell" to launch into the water in place of actually launching a super expensive and rare Lotus Esprit, but that's like Log the Timberrogue doubling as a Monk for a moment).
I think the skill monkey version of the monk would probably be best served with full on 3/4 BAB, but 8+Int skills and a class skills list quite similar to the Rogue. Maybe throw in an option for Trapfinding somewhere, too. Maneuver Training could stay, maybe throw in a line about using skill MONKey levels in place of BAB for feats relating to combat maneuvers. BAM! Now you have a great support character that's less focused on doing straight up damage (but can help out in that department). It would be a great platform for making a sort of "shadow shaolin" or a ninja character.
A straight-up arse beatin' Monk, though, is good with 4+Int. They just need better arse-beatin' abilities. And less non-arse-beatin' abilities, naturally. I like the idea of a static bonus to damage with unarmed strikes and monk weapons (which tend to be fairly crappy on their own), though I do think they need a better base damage for their unarmed strikes. What about a flat 1d6 from 1st level onward to put it on par with the other monk weapons with a feat (or the alternate ability option I mentioned in my last post) for later that increases the damage?
Another thing is that Amulet of Mighty Fists. If all you're getting from Flurry is the TWF tree when you get right down to it, why not make it only cost the same as two weapons?
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Another thing is that Amulet of Mighty Fists. If all you're getting from Flurry is the TWF tree when you get right down to it, why not make it only cost the same as two weapons?
I think that this item should be split in twain. One item that affects all natural attacks call Amulet of Bestial Might; Another that costs bonus equivalent squared times 4000 that only grants it to unarmed strike and keeps the original name (basically costs the same as two weapons enchanted the same). Make the second one capable of up to +10 equivalent and leave the first at +5 and everyone's happy*.
*Yeah, right.
Another thing is that Amulet of Mighty Fists. If all you're getting from Flurry is the TWF tree when you get right down to it, why not make it only cost the same as two weapons?I think that this item should be split in twain. One item that affects all natural attacks call Amulet of Bestial Might; Another that costs bonus equivalent squared times 4000 that only grants it to unarmed strike and keeps the original name (basically costs the same as two weapons enchanted the same). Make the second one capable of up to +10 equivalent and leave the first at +5 and everyone's happy*.
*Yeah, right.
I like that. Somehow getting a bunch of natural attacks briefly crossed my mind (the game I'm in currently features a druid w/ a large cat companion), but I just kinda shrugged it off to the side to think about later. Now I don't have to. Awesomesauce.
Also, check the Monks and Cestus thread for a good Monk alternative posted by Tri-Omega-Zero. Looks fun.
Honestly .... there's a LOT that bugs me about the class. About 1/2 of it is the "we're not human any more" nonsense that comes along with it. What the HELL is that all about????
IMO, the more genuinely *mystic* stuff that disappears, the more viable it becomes. And of the mystic stuff they get - it's NOT EVEN CLOSE to a cleric - so forget that argument.
In general, though:
*increase BAB and HD - they're a melee-intensive class. WHAT the hell are they doing with anything less?
*allow some sort of bonus to monk-weapon damage to come into play. They're really good at *their* weapons - all of 'em (natural or manufactured), so why not let them get a bonus here of some kind? Honestly, letting weapons take Unarmed damage rating, be made of materials, and then enchant like a normal weapon - what's the harm? They have their unarmed business going on, and the weapon selection actually becomes useful for them (rather than an after-thought)
*skills ... I'm open to suggestions, but honestly I've not noted any tremendous lack on the skill front for them - seriously.
*Let the Ki Pool begin AT LEVEL 1! No - NOT the "magic hands" stuff - just the ability to have a ki pool, and points to spend on the ki-enchancements like the jumping and AC boons, and +1 attack, etc. It's a good idea ... and it fits the class - let it fit from level 1, though, and just tack on more boons as it plugs along (ala: enchanted hands).
*Better AC bonus from the get and overall progression. I'm talking about a class that makes primary use of dex and wis for armor, has a class feature that rates at +0 to start ... and it's their *only* line of defense ... seriously? That's terrible! Let 'em start with a +1 on the AC bonus chart, and increase at intervals of 4 levels (+2 at 4th, +3 at 8th, and so on) so they can AT LEAST hang in there ... we're talking about a class that LOSES it's class features if it's NOT buck-naked running around w/a g-string bikini that BETTER not have magic on it or the RAW will come and find SOME way to penalize the choice for the monk ...
Seriously ... this class is SO screwed by RAW in SO many ways that others are not it's like playing on "suicide" level in D&D if you choose one.
EDIT: Although somewhat WILDLY different (it's actually a casting class like Paladin/Ranger), that rebuild by TriOmega and Kirth *is* solid looking. It got a bit complex for me on a quick review, but in general I loved what I saw.
What do people think would be a good static damage bonus progression in place of the increased unarmed damage dice? My initial thought would be, starting at 4th, a +2 every four levels (so at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th, the same levels that the current Monk gets an increase to their damage dice), capping out at +10 at 20th.
If coupled with a typical monk weapon and a flat increase of unarmed damage (i.e. 1d6 for damage plus static bonus), that puts them above the current curve for average damage, but behind the curve for max damage from 16th on. Does it need to be that high to compete if they're going to get other things besides straight up damage to actually make them the competitive combat machines we're looking to make them, though?
I'm not sure, scylis ... maybe we need to strip down the "don't wants" from the class first? Kind of hard to gauge things w/out doing this.
I'll attempt a first pass now:
*Don't Want Flurry of Blows - it can be handled w/the 2-wpn fighting stuff and just granted by fiat w/restrictions to "unarmed" and "monk" weapons only. Kind of like how a ranger can just 2-wpn w/out hitting pre-req's.
*sounds like unarmed strike is (at least) under consideration - it's undergoing a radical adjustment in any case (or being discussed anyway).
*fast movement ... does it *really* need to leap so that a monk can move faster than a horse??? Seriously ... why is this even in the class at all?
*Maneuver Training is unnecessary if it becomes full BAB - so scrap that.
*Purity of Body - immunity to disease ... why?
*Evasion and/or Improved Evasion - really ... super-dodge guy? Maybe just the first, but the improved - shouldn't it be restricted for Rogues or something?
*Diamond Body - immune to poison ... certainly useful, but IMO, this one's right up there w/diseases ... why/HOW is this included? It doesn't fit, IMO.
*abundant step is useful (more so than increased speed at least - so why have both?), but also of the "WTF?!?!" nature for me. Since when are the shaolin monks just up and teleporting? Doesn't make sense to me. If it *is* being kept, then they need to get the ability to basically use it like it's a Quickened spell or something though - as the spell itself says you can't *do* anything once you use it. If they could *at least* use it, and standard action attack to stun, it would be worth something ... as it stands - it's not really lending itself to anything they can do - except maybe escape some opponent.
*Diamond soul - all the best save progressions, AND SR on top of it all ... again, I ask, *why*? Why are they suddenly anti-magic? They've ALREADY got the best saves, and some bonus abilities on top. If something *could* go, this is one of my top of the list suggestions.
*Timeless Body - they ... apparently cease to age. Hell, even druids lost this from 2e. Why do these nuts get it? What's the point? Nix it!
*Tongue of the Sun and Moon - interesting ... but *how* and *why* would they suddenly gain the ability to innately communicate with things when they spend all day meditating and beating ass/practice in combat? Talk about making a leap ...
*Empty Body - ok, another one of those WTF things - seriously. *ethereal* of all things ... nope. Try again.
*Perfect self - honestly, it's pretty cool ... but it's going in the *wrong* direction of monk improvements, IMO. This makes sense *IF* you buy into the whole "path of not being human (or whatever)" any more ... I do not buy that as a legitimate path for 'em, though.
I guess, for me, I'm not a fan of the blatently supernatural elements of the class. The more toned down wuxia ones are ok, though, so I'd be more willing to develop and increase that over the supernatural oddities that stand out to me against the source material the class draws from.
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Yeah, monk is currently written is basically a person attempting to reach enlightenment through discipline. In other words, Buddhism. This path of enlightenment path grants them supernatural powers as they level, slowly surpassing the limits of their physical self (immunity to bodily afflictions such as disease, poison and old age, et al).
What we need is a martial artist class, a separate class that has all the crazy martial arts moves one would expect, but none of the spiritual ascendancy mumbo-jumbo.
Yeah, monk is currently written is basically a person attempting to reach enlightenment through discipline. In other words, Buddhism. This path of enlightenment path grants them supernatural powers as they level, slowly surpassing the limits of their physical self (immunity to bodily afflictions such as disease, poison and old age, et al).
What we need is a martial artist class, a separate class that has all the crazy martial arts moves one would expect, but none of the spiritual ascendancy mumbo-jumbo.
Yes!
Much better articulated than I could put it, so yes! This is *exactly* where I'd like to see the monk go.
Failing that, include the *spiritual* as casting somehow (like Kirth's revamp does), or simply reflavor the cleric a bit and let it be a full-caster ... however, I think the latter will lead to a LOT of new spells and such just for them ... weird in general, so I'd prefer to avoid it and just make a "martial artist" class.
Or, rather, a "wuxia artist" class. ;-)
I think they should still call it Flurry of Blows (sounds all wuxia-y, thus awesome), but I'm with you on pretty much all of that, Speaker. I think some of those could stay in a more skill monkey-y version, but for the combat-focused one? Yeah, no. They go.
Maybe do up a PrC with a bunch of that stuff called "The Enlightened Master" or something like that.
I think a spaced out +30 ft. bonus to their speed could work. I like giving them a boost to their speed. That's, what, half their normal bonus?
I've been thinking, if a static damage bonus progression isn't what we want to do instead of the unarmed strike damage increases, I think it should up the damage of all Monk weapons, but perhaps at a rate similar to what the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from Tome of Battle gives to non-Monks. I think it caps at 2d6 sometime around level 20 (book is buried ATM).
For my personal version, I'm looking at giving the Monk special "School Training Talents" (not sure on the name, yet, so we'll go with a placeholder for now) every few levels and a nice capstone ability at 20th that's particular to the "school" you chose. The idea is that you pick a "school" and you get to choose from a small list of abilities particular to the "school". Totally thinking of going with names like "Southern Mountain Crane Style" and such for the schools, though more generic ones would probably be better. Anybody have some good ideas for themes for some schools to write up?
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Something tells me the APG will address some of this... i.e. the ability to swap out monk abilities for things folks are asking for.
For example, get full BAB but drop flurry of blows.
Get +2 skill ranks/level but drop fast movement and slow fall. Or maybe get Skill Focus (X) whenever you would gain +10 movement to stagger the gain every 3 levels.
IIRC, they mentioned something about you can do several of the plug & play options as long as you don't give up the same class feature twice. I'd trust the options include nifty things we can't even imagine at the moment.
Something tells me the APG will address some of this... i.e. the ability to swap out monk abilities for things folks are asking for.
For example, get full BAB but drop flurry of blows.
Get +2 skill ranks/level but drop fast movement and slow fall. Or maybe get Skill Focus (X) whenever you would gain +10 movement to stagger the gain every 3 levels.
IIRC, they mentioned something about you can do several of the plug & play options as long as you don't give up the same class feature twice. I'd trust the options include nifty things we can't even imagine at the moment.
If they actually do that, I would literally remove all but the bare bones of the class and swap them out for things that will actually help me in combat.
I made the following change to monks in my campaign, it seemed to work out fairly well.
Monks use full BaB when making attacks with monk weapons or unarmed strikes.
Monks can use Wisdom instead of Str or Dex, for the purpose of attacks and damage, when using monk weapons or unarmed strikes.
I think perhaps adding unarmed damage to monk weapons is a good idea as well.
Actually I would say that just the following can make the monk very effective:
Allow flurrying with any specific weapon as a feat option.
Allow weapons to inflict additional damage, either replacing base damage with unarmed damage if it is greater or giving a damage bonus as the original monk had (+1/2 levels).
As the FoB is close enough to a full BAB as makes no odds you don't really need to increase the BAB.
Actually I would say that just the following can make the monk very effective:
Allow flurrying with any specific weapon as a feat option.
Allow weapons to inflict additional damage, either replacing base damage with unarmed damage if it is greater or giving a damage bonus as the original monk had (+1/2 levels).As the FoB is close enough to a full BAB as makes no odds you don't really need to increase the BAB.
The 3/4 but 1/1 when Flurrying can really, really affect when you pick up feats. They're levels behind the actual 1/1 BAB classes for picking up things like Improved Grapple/Trip/Disarm, for starters. If you're effectively giving them a 1/1 BAB for almost every situation where they'd want it, why don't you just give them a 1/1 BAB all the time?
Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning behind how the Monk was updated for Pathfinder, but due to the way the original Monk was designed for 3rd and then 3.5, the "backwards compatibility" is almost a straight-jacket. They did a good job of doing what they could within their own guidelines to try to make the Monk better, but there's only so much that can be done without changing a lot of the class. As is, it takes a lot of work and planning to make the Monk be something other than essentially the "trap" class for the game. Unless the APG allows you to strip out pretty much any class feature for something else either more skill monkey-ish or combat oriented, I don't really see that changing.
I think, if you want to play an unarmed fighter with lots of damage. Then go with the fighter, by all means. He's got enough feats to support such a build. If the core monk loses the "out there" abilities in favor of more raw damage output, he's really just a fighter with pre-set feats.
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I think, if you want to play an unarmed fighter with lots of damage. Then go with the fighter, by all means. He's got enough feats to support such a build. If the core monk loses the "out there" abilities in favor of more raw damage output, he's really just a fighter with pre-set feats.
Creating feats that made a wrestling/barehanded/martial arts fighter possible might be the way to go.
I would love the ability to make combat maneuver focus for a character an option that remains viable into high level play. One of the people I play with has a combat maneuver focused whip wielding cleric of Calistria, and her feat investments are rapidly becoming pointless.
In my games, we allow monks to use their Wis bonus for attack/damage bonuses when using anything they can flurry with (so unarmed strike and monk weapons), add one-half of their unarmed strike damage to all combat manoeuvres and make a FoB as a standard action for 1 ki point. This seems to fix the manoeuvrability, MAD and emphasises the combat manoeuvre niche over the pure damage route.
Hey Al, nice to see you back in the business!
Clearly we ended up with similar fixes, using Wisdom as their sole attack stat.
When you say they add one half of their unarmed bonus as a combat maneuver, do you mean that a monk with d8 unarmed strike rolls a d8 and adds one half of the result (rounding up, I presume) to their combat maneuver check? Or that they add one half of their full unarmed damage, modified, by feats, amulets of mighty fists, and wisdom to the check?
At the moment, half of the dice unmodified from the monk table + 0.5*Wis (or Str bonus, if high enough), so a level 7 with 18 Wis would add 1d4+2 damage to combat manoeuvres. I'm using few splatbooks, a low magic world and the PCs are currently low level, so no Amulet of Might Fists (yet) and no feats which modify base damage are available. It doesn't add much damage and might well require revision at higher levels, but at low levels it's working out quite well as an incentive to focus on manoeuvres, especially on grapples which already do damage.
(Somewhat embarrassingly, I'm actually the brother of person you're referring to, and we both maintain that each other stole the online nickname we use from the other one.)
Very interesting. It seems like it might get too high in later levels (where half of 2d10+15 is 1d10+7 and could seriously off balance CMB checks), but I like the concept.
You tell your brother I said hi, and that he ought to be ashamed of stealing. :-)