Half-Giants and Sprites

[Gray]

I've always had sprites and half-giants as PC races in my homebrew. However, I've always tweaked with the stats, and for a while I used the races from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed as a 3.5 substitute. In the past, we added ECL or used the racial levels from AU. However, with Pathfinder, I'd like my Sprites to be tiny flying beings from level 1, and I'd like my Half-Giants to be 9 to 10 ft tall humanoids with Reach.

Here's my stab at making them a PC race and PF compatable, and I'd love some feedback. Do these seem too out of line? Would they really upset the powerlevels in a game?

Sprites

Sprite Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Strength: Sprites are quick and have powerful personalities, but they are physically weak.
Tiny: Sprites are Tiny creatures and gain a +2 size bonus to their AC, a +2 size bonus on attack rolls, a -2 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +8 size bonus on Stealth Checks.
Movement: Fey have a base land speed of 20 feet. However, they have a flying speed of 30 feet
Low-Light Vision: Sprites can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Magic Affinity: Sprites receive a +2 bonus on Spellcraft skill checks
Weapon Familiarity: Fey are proficient with all bows and treat any weapon with the word “fey” in its name as a martial weapon. Sprites must use Tiny-sized weapons.
Languages: Sprites begin play speaking Common, and Sylvan. Sprites with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic, Giant, Celestial, Abysmal, and Reptilian.

Half Giants

Half-Giant Racial Traits
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Dexterity: Half-Giants are not nimble, but they are strong and tend to reflect the wisdom of their giant ancestral heritage.
Large: Half-giants are Large creatures and have a -1 penalty to AC due to their size.
Fast Speed: Half-giants have a base speed of 40 feet.
Giant Blood: Half-giants count as both humans and giants for any effect related to race.
Reach: Half-giants have a 10 foot reach.
Natural Crafter: Half-giants receive a +2 bonus on Craft skill checks.
Languages: Half-giants begin play speaking Common and Giant. Half-giants with a high intelligence can choose any languages they want (except for secret languages, such as Druidic).

[freduncio]

Gray wrote:

Sprites

Sprite Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Strength: Sprites are quick and have powerful personalities, but they are physically weak.
Tiny: Sprites are Tiny creatures and gain a +2 size bonus to their AC, a +2 size bonus on attack rolls, a -2 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +8 size bonus on Stealth Checks.
Movement: Fey have a base land speed of 20 feet. However, they have a flying speed of 30 feet
Low-Light Vision: Sprites can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Magic Affinity: Sprites receive a +2 bonus on Spellcraft skill checks
Weapon Familiarity: Fey are proficient with all bows and treat any weapon with the word “fey” in its name as a martial weapon. Sprites must use Tiny-sized weapons.
Languages: Sprites begin play speaking Common, and Sylvan. Sprites with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic, Giant, Celestial, Abysmal, and Reptilian.

Sprites strong as halflings? Put it down to -4 STR. +4 DEX to balance.

And slow their speed to 10 foot... they're tiny people after all (and probably will be flying most of time)

[Gray]

I meant to change that land speed, so I agree there.

I can also agree with the STR issue. I was a bit hesitant to do the +4 DEX and -4 to STR, primarily since this race seems to have quite a bit going for it already with AC.

[Gray]

Thanks by the way. I'm hoping to do an actual Player's Guide if this ambitious streak keeps up.

Any other input?

[golden pony]

Hmm if I compare to a dwarf:
*20ft faster
*Reach
*-1 aC, attack bonus
*Size mod for skills and CM.
*+2 craft.

*+2 vs poison and spells.
*Hatred, giant trainning.
*Stable.
*Auto stone secret door or trap detection thingee.

Hm am hesitating betzen saying "half-giant a bit too much" and "it seems ok I think". In any case, good job!

[freduncio]

Maybe -4 STR +2 DEX +4 CHA... or even +2 CHA. Fly at level 1 is somewhat imbalancing, no? Had you seen raptorans from Races of the Wild? They start gliding and learn to actually fly as they level up... maybe something in those lines... Nevermind... a sprite gliding is somewhat silly.

[Remco Sommeling]

to be honest I consider both a bit too powerful to play from level 1, reach and large size is a bit much, so is fly.

Even then I have to say the half-giant is seriously weak for a large creature. I think it can be done without straining credibility much if you put minimum scores for half-giant and sprite.

for example a half-giant can not end up with a strength lower than 15 and con lower than 12, a typical average half-giant might have a strength of 16 or 17, you just don't allow for half-giants that are exceptionally strong.

[Spyder25]

Why not just use the half-giants from the Expanded Psionics book, and just take out the psionic powers.

[Gray]

Thank you for all of the input.

Here’s a little more on my thought process with these races and what my goals were.

For the Sprite, I had a goal of creating a base class that starts out tiny, and can fly.

Now, the ability to fly can be considered too much for 1st level, but then I can’t really think of anything that it would really break in the game. The race is not really optimized to deal damage. It may be able to fly out of harms range, but that really isn’t so bad. It is too small to carry another party member. It’s too small to even carry a lot of normal sized items. The only min/max abuse I can think of is if someone designed a rogue. The stealth bonuses are significant, so I can see a PC taking advantage of sneak attacks. However, it doesn’t seem like the Sprite would outshine a normal rogue.

For the Half-giant, my goal was to create a race that is large and has reach from the start. To me, this treads on the most dangerous ground. I probably should change the ability modifiers to +4 STR, +2 WIS, and -4 DEX. As was mentioned, a +2 STR seems too weak for a giant-ish race. This seems to put things more in line with what I was looking for. The Half-giant has the potential to do high damage, and can get attacks first with reach. However, I’m not sure it will really break the game either.

The Half-giant has quite a few things going against it as well. It’s a big target and would tend to have a low AC. In some games I’ve run, the Half-giant was sometimes seen as the most intimidating threat, and smart enemies made plans to neutralize the “big tank” first.

I’ll try to figure out googledocs so I can present a better layout as well.

[Gray]

Spyder25 wrote:

Why not just use the half-giants from the Expanded Psionics book, and just take out the psionic powers.

I don't have that book. Is it OGL?

[Gray]

I've updated some things, and added some of the fluff text as it pertains to my campaign. I've also added it to googledocs for easier editing.

Go to Gray's Homebrew Races.

[Remco Sommeling]

Gray wrote:

Thank you for all of the input.

Here’s a little more on my thought process with these races and what my goals were.

For the Sprite, I had a goal of creating a base class that starts out tiny, and can fly.

Now, the ability to fly can be considered too much for 1st level, but then I can’t really think of anything that it would really break in the game. The race is not really optimized to deal damage. It may be able to fly out of harms range, but that really isn’t so bad. It is too small to carry another party member. It’s too small to even carry a lot of normal sized items. The only min/max abuse I can think of is if someone designed a rogue. The stealth bonuses are significant, so I can see a PC taking advantage of sneak attacks. However, it doesn’t seem like the Sprite would outshine a normal rogue.

For the Half-giant, my goal was to create a race that is large and has reach from the start. To me, this treads on the most dangerous ground. I probably should change the ability modifiers to +4 STR, +2 WIS, and -4 DEX. As was mentioned, a +2 STR seems too weak for a giant-ish race. This seems to put things more in line with what I was looking for. The Half-giant has the potential to do high damage, and can get attacks first with reach. However, I’m not sure it will really break the game either.

The Half-giant has quite a few things going against it as well. It’s a big target and would tend to have a low AC. In some games I’ve run, the Half-giant was sometimes seen as the most intimidating threat, and smart enemies made plans to neutralize the “big tank” first.

I’ll try to figure out googledocs so I can present a better layout as well.
[/QUOTE

well I figured that since the sprite does not get flanking bonus since it doesn't threaten any square but it's own unless it has a reach weapon it is fairly balanced. A sprite spellcaster seems to be a bit too powerful.

-4 str + 4dex -2 con +2int +2cha

which are alot of modifiers but those seem suitable, for a flying midget, it is fairly weak and fragile, but can avoid harm by flying and having a good ac by dex and size.

[Gray]

Remco Sommeling wrote:

well I figured that since the sprite does not get flanking bonus since it doesn't threaten any square but it's own unless it has a reach weapon it is fairly balanced. A sprite spellcaster seems to be a bit too powerful.

-4 str + 4dex -2 con +2int +2cha

which are alot of modifiers but those seem suitable, for

...

That would be quite few modifiers, but I do like adding a bit more frailty with the negative CON.

[Gray]

And I've updated the document.

Go to Gray's Homebrew Races.

[Mok]

I've been working on over the last year, what I hope, is an exhaustive racial design system. I've spent far too many hours mulling over minutiae with the rules, balance and flavor...

A few things:

Tiny should be 15 base land movement.

Flying is a kind of either/or situation. Either the GM can make games that allow flying to be fine in the game and not ruin situations, or it can wreak a GM's designs on how to build up tension.

For a GM that is prepared I think flying is fine. A flying speed of 30 should be fine. You also need to define the flying ability (poor, good, etc.) I'd just give it an average rating on a fuzzy scale of balance.

The big issue with tiny flying characters is that they are over optimized for spellcasters. A sorcerer or wizard gains tremendous benefit from the tiny size with increase in AC, ranged touch attacks, and stealth. Flying lets them stay out of harms way rather easily. Because they rarely have to be physical in combat, they pretty much only gain huge benefits over regular characters.

Tiny creatures that don't fly still have a lot of benefits, but there is still enough liability for the spellcaster that the game retains its basic feel. If you wanted to keep the wings for flavor, I'd instead have the race either be able to do some kind of featherfall glide type of natural ability, or enhance their acrobatics skill with the idea that some limited flight either allows them to tumble or jump very well.

With half-giants, you might want to check out http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm for the 3.5 version.

We've been running minotaurs as a playtest case for large size creatures for the racial design system. I'm quite confident in saying that large size at low levels just breaks the game unfortunately.

The key things are reach and weapon size. Reach at low levels is very potent in general, particularly when a 10' natural reach is combined with a large sized weapon that provides reach. Then you have 20'. Next, have a player pick combat reflexes feat, while armed with a reach weapon and spiked armor. The player suddenly has multiple attacks of opportunity whenever an enemy moves within a 20' bubble. At low level play it can easily shut down encounters without much challenge.

The next element to consider is that weapon size increase means that statistically a larger creature is gaining an additional +3 average damage when using two handed type weapons like the great sword. So you end up compounding the power of reach with increase in damage.

How I've settled on dealing large size is, unfortunately, that it can't work at level one. I wanted to be able to pull it off, but it just mucks up with things too much. What I've worked on was a feat progression. At level three a player can spend their feat to get the large build ability from the above half-giant link. Then at 5th level they can spend another feat to actually become large.

That progression fits much better into the power levels of the game, and helps balance out melee characters so that they don't overwhelm combat.

[Dork Lord]

A tiny creature with a Strength of 14... What would that allow a said tiny creature to lift?

[terry love]

I think its looking good.

I would nerf the giant though:

Poor: half giants start with half the gold there base class would normally start with.
that coupled with large weapons and armor costing double should prevent a half giant from getting too much gear at first level.

Slow learner: half giants dont recieve the first level feat normally given to 1st level characters.

i think with both of these in place it could come really close to being balanced.