There are munchkin Bane sticks??? WTF? Mr. Fishy didn't get one do you guys have one?
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Raving Dork,
I am on the same page with you. That would piss people off. I merely suggested it, because, if the other players were plotting to do my character in because I might become a threat over time, well that would tick me off in turn.
Ah the drawbacks of an evil campaign.
It is good to hear that there is a DM ban on player vs player actions. That hopefully will make things work. I understand that it is a very bad idea to mess with “other peoples fun” because people wont forget it year after year. Unfortunately others are not often so considerate.
There was only one time I ran an “evil campaign” and it worked for a while.
Usually I don’t allow the following alignments in my campaigns. CN, CE, NE, LE.
CN so often used by players who would like to play NE but are not allowed to.
I allowed people to make characters of any alignment. The players were all going to be first cousins. Their grand father was the Lord of the noble house they all belonged to.
I ran things like a mafia family. They were all trying to impress their elders by successfully taking care of jobs, and one of their uncles was their “handler”
It worked. Ironically the party would assess if they wanted to get involved in combat or not. There were many times I was surprised they either tried to avoid fighting by stealth, or they would resort to bribery (diplomacy) or threatening relatives (intimidation)
But I discouraged out right murders. Their handler who was their uncle would comment that it would draw too much attention.
Anyways I made the mistake of making the group do the module Rahasia, which needs a good party to be motivated to do the adventure.
I think mechanically the character that has been created is strong in the sense that she is min/maxed to perfectly lose her negatives with the template. The long term planning is admirable. If this poster has thought about the roleplaying as much as the mechanics, then I'm sure the character is great.
I say they were foolish for telling you. Its their prerogative to want to kill the character. I would too. If the DM has said no in fighting until end game, then I guess this thread is pointless. In the end, if the other characters haven't prepared exceptionally well, then they will most likely die. Unfortunately, some of them are nearly helpless against undead. Still, the bard character could have been putting as much research as bads can into secret or historical methods used to stop liches. It could have been done, on the side, and he could have invested a lot of time and energy into it. The DM, if reasonable, could have given that character a tool that would even things up when the time comes.
Finally as for reasons to kill the character IN GAME, not all characters have an understanding what a persona who becomes a lich will be like. In their minds it may no longer even be the person who originally promised them that all would be well. As much as the original poster says that no rules state personality has to change, the other characters can be ignorant of that and assume that the personality WILL change simply because no rule states that they automatically know it is in essence the same person.
I played in a campaign a while back that had "end boss" BBEG that were basically immortal (and epic level).
We were discussing tactics, and the wizard was seriously considering becoming a Lich to be able to take on these badasses.
My response as the Melee-centric character? "May I be your Death Knight good sir." (This was a campaign where mortals were becoming immortal, and becoming near-gods, granting powers to followers, etc).
Why is it bad, especially in an evil campaign, for your ally and friend (yes, evil can have friends too), to become a Lich? Because you think he might suddenly feel like you are in his way?
Are you planning on being in their way? You've joined forces so far, why is it absurd to consider that you might remain allies while they are a Lich?
Is your reason for being together so untenable that you expect that any given disagreement can't be met with adult discussion rather than "That's it, die!"?
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Regarding the "value" and "cost" of becoming a Lich...
The PRD already has rules on "Monsters as PCs". You will, at the very least, need to count the CR increase as class levels:
"Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels."
Note that the bestiary entry has the 11th level human necromancer (normally a CR 10) as CR 12. 11th level + CR 2 is 13, and -1 for being an NPC.
So as a player, you'd be at least 13th level.
The DM has two choices for this:
1. At 11th level, you become a Lich and are considered 13th level. You gain a reduced amount of experience, or stop leveling (if you play without experience) until the other players catch up.
2. You start leveling slower now, taking longer to reach 11th level, so that by the time you get there and can become a Lich, your allies are now 13th level and the APL remains even amongst you.
I understand that a lot of time and energy was spent and you gave up a lot of magic items/power to get this. The problem is that all of those things (other than the money instead of magic items, and money spent on replacing your familiar), didn't really affect you mechanically. Roleplaying is roleplaying... you didn't lag behind in levels, and you didn't lose out on any mechanical benefits anywhere else (okay, a week without your familiar, sorry).
If anything, it provided the DM a hook or adventuring. Having to search for the ways of becoming a lich isn't a cost, it's an adventure.
And the money is going towards 120k magic item that means you can't permanently die (or it's fairly tough to do so).
Considering you are getting more than the value of 120k magic items out of what you get for being a Lich, I think a simple +2 to your effective level is a fair cost (and by the rules, no less).
Why do you think I took Command Undead? I would charm the lead shadow and by extension have control over all his minion shadows. :)
So basically, you're just really hoping that the incorporeal, crazy-stealthed things that can go through walls never, ever get the jump on you, either in a surprise round or even the first round of combat init -2 vs. init +2 for a normal shadow, and +5 for a Greater... Since 1-shot pretty much guarantees you're Shadowspawn and lose all your class levels?
[Never mind the thought of a swarm of Stirges, especially with a party that loves you enough to let your corpse rot...].
I take a lot of pride in having been able to get this character from 1st to 9th. (With low AC, low CMD, low saves, and low hit points, that's not an easy thing to do!) It is my dream to see her survive to 11th and become a lich. At that point most of her weaknesses will simply disappear.
Lich has a +2CR for a reason. There should be at least *some* penalty, I would think. Plus, you know, undead have strengths, but weaknesses also, and at 11th level, I'm not sure you can easily get passed all of the restrictions, evil campaign or no. [Plus, really, you'll still have only 2 str...]
Yeah, one one side you got comments like "I am the lynchpin of the campaign, without me everything falls down and I own the books and have their characters sheets and they play at my house and I'll walk if the DM dares to put a level adjustment on my mega-twinked character concept of powergamyness" and on the other side RavingDork really, really cares about roleplaying.
How could anybody infer anything negative from that?
I don't know if I even want to respond to a statement that uses the term 'mega-twinked', that term impilies a level of bias I doubt any logical discourse could overcome anyway.
But... I'm a sucker for a debate, so I guess I will anyway.
You read a threat in all that. "Mwahahahaha if I'm not allowed what I want I'll walk and the campaign will fail because they need me and I AM GOD MWAHAHAHAHA"
While I read something along the lines of "You know, it kind of sucks (he said it saddened him), but if I have to leave the campaigns going to fall apart. Everybody depends on me, it's my place, my books, hell my character is central to the plot."
That little statement he made at the end "It's sure a good thing I'm a nice guy" or something along those lines, had a wink after it. A wink. Now I could be misreading him, but in my experience that means he was joking, teasing, you know, laughing about something he would never do?
Honestly, it seems people on these boards have a tendency to try to find a Munchkin to abuse with their +1 Munchkin Bane sticks.
Yeah, and RavingDork has a tendency to try breaking the system, although more as to test its limits ( so says he ^^ ). To be fair, his spell choices so far have been pretty tame.
But if the other players, who he says are otherwise nice people, plan collectively to kill his character until she is dead, I think there is another side which he hasn't told us about yet.And, yeah, if one of my players would min/max his character like he did and then expects to get a "get out of jail for free" card like lichdom, I'd tell him to get bent.
Did you just compare becoming a King to becoming a Lich? You do know what a Lich is right? The template carries a +2 CR adjustment to an NPC, that means it more powerful than a NPC of the same level without the Lich Template.
I just compared becoming a Lich to becoming a King, yes (or, for bonus points, a Lich-King ^_^). And D&D does a poor job of representing the powers of a king (or any noble whatsoever). You know, things like ARMIES and TAXATION and sometimes even DIVINE RIGHT(s). All of which should conceivably add to somebody's CR.
Point is, there are ways for people to gain 'power' that nobody penalizes them for - out of scale magic item for his level? Check. Titles? Check. Potent Allies? Check. Cheezy PrCs? Check. Optimized character build? Check. Nobody thinks of hitting people with level penalties or holdbacks because of such things.
But suddenly, a template, well, HELL, that's got a CR attached to it! Your PC is SCREWED! You gotta pay back those extra levels you just got, never mind the up front effort it took!
Horsefeathers! (I'm looking at YOU, Pegasus!). IF the RavingDork legitimately put in the effort, time and cash to achieve the very difficult task of Lich-hood (-dom? -enstein?), there's no reason to give an arbitrary mechanical penalty to 'compensate'. There's PLENTY of reasons to introduce roleplaying penalties (adventure hooks et.al.), but to say "Hey, now that you're a Lich, you have to adjust and won't earn normal XP for the next 30,000xp or so." is just plain being punitive. Players shouldn't be punished for achieving something extraordinary while the other players just did 'the usual'.
There are ingame power mods for becoming a Lich(+2 CR). Can you please point the Fishy in the direction of the King CR modifer and the stat and power add ons that Royalty provide. As that template isn't in any of the books Mr. Fishy owns.
Arguing "royalty in campaign" against lich is arguing apples and oranges. There are of course all sorts of ways in-game PC's can obtain perks, whether it be through favors, titles, organizations, whatever. What you tangibly gain is dependent on each individual GM, so is a case-by-case basis.
Applying a template to a character has a direct mechanical effect on the character. It's quantifiable, and should be taken into account from a balance perspective.
Did you just compare becoming a King to becoming a Lich? You do know what a Lich is right? The template carries a +2 CR adjustment to an NPC, that means it more powerful than a NPC of the same level without the Lich Template.I just compared becoming a Lich to becoming a King, yes (or, for bonus points, a Lich-King ^_^). And D&D does a poor job of representing the powers of a king (or any noble whatsoever). You know, things like ARMIES and TAXATION and sometimes even DIVINE RIGHT(s). All of which should conceivably add to somebody's CR.
Point is, there are ways for people to gain 'power' that nobody penalizes them for - out of scale magic item for his level? Check. Titles? Check. Potent Allies? Check. Cheezy PrCs? Check. Optimized character build? Check. Nobody thinks of hitting people with level penalties or holdbacks because of such things.
But suddenly, a template, well, HELL, that's got a CR attached to it! Your PC is SCREWED! You gotta pay back those extra levels you just got, never mind the up front effort it took!
Horsefeathers! (I'm looking at YOU, Pegasus!). IF the RavingDork legitimately put in the effort, time and cash to achieve the very difficult task of Lich-hood (-dom? -enstein?), there's no reason to give an arbitrary mechanical penalty to 'compensate'. There's PLENTY of reasons to introduce roleplaying penalties (adventure hooks et.al.), but to say "Hey, now that you're a Lich, you have to adjust and won't earn normal XP for the next 30,000xp or so." is just plain being punitive. Players shouldn't be punished for achieving something extraordinary while the other players just did 'the usual'.
I'm not certain how armies or divine right would add to a king's CR, divine right is a sort of ambiguous and armies could add to an encounter level but not to an indiviual's CR. Taxation could easily be represented by a bonus in CR by a very well equipped individual and there are rules for that (NPC and character wealth by level), if they're well geared for an NPC give them Character wealth and increase the CR by 1,if they're insanely geared for their level its not difficult to extrapolate that to CR+2 or CR+3.
The power gains without penalty are usually balance within the game system itself, 1st level characters dont start with +5 Vorpal swords for good reason, its way out of their price range and it completely imbalances a game. Titles? In most cases titles are just window dressing, how much power they actually best is DM fiat. Potent Allies: DM fiat. Cheezy PrCs: Something the DM should consider before he allows it into his game. Optimized Character: There's limits to the amount of power even an optimized character can gain and in most cases it is not game breaking. These things are all directly DM limited many times before the campaign starts and as such are rarely problems for experienced DM's that are prepared for them.
A template has a power level assigned to it when its designed, its the CR value adjustment and although they're not perfect they are a good guideline to go by. A Lich Template is like adding 2 levels to a character, its like spending 120,000g and buying two levels. If that comes without penalty then this extraordinary path would probably become 'the usual' path in character advancement.
I think the character is over optimized and seeks a special case scenario to negate the penalties without cost. A level adjustment is well warranted.
But suddenly, a template, well, HELL, that's got a CR attached to it! Your PC is SCREWED! You gotta pay back those extra levels you just got, never mind the up front effort it took!
Gaining a template isn't "screwing" a PC, it's an exchange of one sort of advancement (i.e levels) against another (abillities gained from the template).
In the case of extremely powerful templates, it may make more sense to convert the template into a multi-level PrC so the character can acquire the abilities more organically. Savage Species did this for certain monsters so they chould be run as 1st level PC's, and may have done so for some templates.
Also, I don't understand why everyone keeps saying that a PC deserves a template/PrC/etc. because they "put in the effort". The "effort", such as quests, monies, research, whatever, is part and parcel of achieving the end goal. For example, PC paladin wants his character to be divinely blessed and reflect this in-game with the half-celestial template. Most GM's would require some level of in-game action to pursue this goal (quests, donations, good deeds, etc.). Once the "roleplaying" requirements are met the character receives the blessing and becomes half-celestial. The mechanical benefits gained from the template still need to be accounted for in the character build.
It's like separation of church and state - roleplaying "requirements" should be kept separate from the mechanical balance.
Sounds like your DM is very nice and understanding. Allowing you to live this long. He must go out of his way not to threaten your character. I don't no what has kept you alive besides mercy. You have basically no defenses.
I've survived not for mercy of the GM (whose thrown some NASTY stuff at us regularly over our challenge level).
STR 2 makes me laugh. Sure are a one trick pony. Sure you can get in and out of the bed with the best of them. Better sleep naked though cause that winter blanket is a solid 3lbs, that with sleeping cloths your into a medium load. Wake up Fatigued much? lol. Maybe should require a STR check DC -1 to get the blanket off.
One of the many reasons why the others could kill her with ease if they really mean to. All they would have to do is give her an extra blanket during the night then leave her trapped under them as they broke camp in the morning. ;P
The sheer ridiculousness of the character offends.
As does the amount of apparent intolerance on these boards.
What you have going on here is the same crap that makes D&D terrible. You should switch to 4th ed. and play your WoW table top like you are looking to do.
I hate 4E as well as WoW and play neither. I have played plenty of "normal" characters that have ranged from weak to extremely powerful with few troubles, but when I want to try something new, try a REAL challenge, I get a lot of flack from the online community.
Would say you need a walking stick but i don't think you could pick it up between steps. lol. You have the same leg strength as say a person with a spinal injury who is in rehab relearning to walk.
It seems many of us have vastly differing opinions on what 2 Strength means. At the very least, to me, having a strength score at all means she is perfectly capable of moving under her own power. Also, many of you are looking at strength in a vaccuum. She has 10 constitution when most commoners would have a 4. She is amazingly healthy for her age and can jog with the best of them. Probably wins old lady marathon races and competes well enough in the average joe endurance races.
Maybe I just believe in play a game with rules as intended over rules as written.
I hope you didn't mean to imply that I don't.
If I was the Barbarian/Monk(Which bothers me for a whole different set of reasons) i would argue to leave you at the next town to take up sewing like a nice little old lady should.
Player had a change of heart and decided he didn't like barbarian much. So he roleplayed a change of alignment (with Hama helping to civilize him) and he multiclassed into something he thought would be more to his tastes. Our play group finds it ironic that he is playing what many of you forum members consider to be the two weakest classes, and yet he is one of the most powerful characters in our party (physically at least).
Realizing that PK'ing was not on the cards until climatic ending allowed you to gamble more so with your dump stat, extremely more so, then usual.
Are you implying that a normal play group would attack its own members? Even though this is an evil game, I was hoping for (and counting on) smart evil, not stupid evil.
ohhh ... that's nasty!
Giving him a fake phylactery (I'd booby trap it for good measure so if they talk him into destroying it ... oh I am EVIL!). Then make your real phylactery something like holy sword a handy paladin will find.
I was planning on making it into a grain of sand and tossing it in the campaign world's biggest desert (or something similar). I love the idea of using a fake phylactery to quell fears.
How is he holding things hostage? He didn't force them to play at his house, or use his books. I suppose the bard could have done the diplomat thing, but there is probably an in game reason he didn't.
The bard just recently joined the party and, technically, hasn't yet seen play.
Here's the thing...the DM is under duress. RD may not be actively holding the game resources over the DM's head, but the fact that he does have them all does give him leverage over the DM. It makes the DM MUCH more likely to say yes to requests like can I have this uber template with no LA. And if the DM honestly thinks that a venerable caster getting the lich template isn't gonna break the game horrible in a game that has a barbarian monk (I don't even need to see the stats for that one...)...much less for NO cost other then the 120k gold, then the DM should have his DM card revoked. So either RD is holding things over the DM head (actively or not)...or the DM is a moron. The more RD defends himself, the more it becomes clear that there is SOMETHING is going terribly wrong.As a DM I am a bit confused by some of responses the OP has gotten. He and his DM obviously sat down and set up, from the very beginning, for this character to become a lich, or DIE. He has taken significant penelties to his stats, and roleplayed out this lack of stats, and done so in an intelligent manner. All with the stated goal, again one agreed to by his DM, to become a lich. And I see very little difference in his physical stats than from a venerable human commoner either. (Str 2, Dex 6, Con 4)
Will that make him more powerfull? Yes, absolutly. Does it make him overpowered? Nope, not at all. Again, this is something that was PLANNED. If I were running this campaign I would probably make him "sit out" a level for the other players to make up for the LA. But that is about it. And even if/when he does become a lich, his spells are still going to be the same,
Not sure if I was in his shoes if I would have gone to the extreme he has to get to that point, but from an RP perspective he certainly seems to have gone the extra mile to achieve his goal. Personally I would have opted for a Dread Necromancer build, gotten better stats (with the exception of the CHA), better spells, and still would have ended up becoming a lich.
Wow. Just wow. You couldn't be more wrong (and I don't mean that in a negative tone). This is one of the best campaigns we've had in years. Everything seems to go right for everyone, and it is all thanks to our wonderful GM's imagination and ability.
Also, the reason why I have everyone's sheets at all, is because we generate the characters on my laptop on homebrew character sheet templates that I've designed. Take a look, they look really nice. Every time somebody levels up or has a significant change to their character, I'm the one he writes it in. This isn't because I want that kind of power, but more because I'm the only one who knows how to format it so the sheet looks nice. It's simply something I do because I want to and everyone is happy to let me do it. I'm essentially a GM's assistant in this regard (and have been holder of the players' papers for dozens of campaigns). Besides, with all the printed copies floating around that haven't been tossed out and older versions that were sent across the internet, I doubt I really could get rid of their characters (as I said before, I was merely joking).
Honestly, it seems people on these boards have a tendency to try to find a Munchkin to abuse with their +1 Munchkin Bane sticks.
I was mobbed shortly after first arriving to these boards due to my strange "munchkin" ideas on how invisibility MIGHT work. I was even speaking in gaming theory, rather than practical application, and I was attacked for it.
You can all say what you want about this community, but it is far more hostile than some other sites I've been to.
I don't think most people are even using RD's side of the story. I'm starting to think some of the posters might have a beef with RD and his powergaming ways. It's the only way that could explain all of these conspiracies RD being the dastardly mustached villain holding women hostage over train tracks. To be honest some of the comments, dare I say attacks, on RD are really off-putting and disappointing. I only recently joined these boards and everyone had so far seemed cordial and well-tempered.
I was attacked shortly after I arrived on these boards. I'm sorry to say I did not respond well. I told some of my friends about it in passing and they (without prodding or suggestion from me) chose to come into my very first thread and defend me. I was accused of deliberately causing trouble and the stigma has followed me around ever since.
In other places, like WotC's Star Wars Saga forums, I am one of the most respected members around, and many know me to be a nice guy (despite my crazy min/maxer ideas and loop-hole finding, which I AM known for).
Now, I don't necessarily agree with all of RD's points but I do understand where he is coming from. Even then, as a DM I am always willing to reward great roleplay and storytelling. Frankly though, the Lich template is a bit too overpowered for my tastes. I'm not a big fan of LA's so I'll probably add some sort offshoot from a normal Lich, like perhaps lowered benefits or some slight penalties. Lichdom is an easy way for other players to be under appreciated while one player hogs the "spotlight of awesome."
That being said, this is an issue that RD's DM has the final say. None of us really know the dynamics of this group and it is the DM's game after all. He/She can do whatever he/she wishes without having to be called an incompetent fool. This game is about having fun after all.
Do you remember that guys? Fun!
Amen.
I played in a campaign a while back that had "end boss" BBEG that were basically immortal (and epic level).
We were discussing tactics, and the wizard was seriously considering becoming a Lich to be able to take on these badasses.
My response as the Melee-centric character? "May I be your Death Knight good sir." (This was a campaign where mortals were becoming immortal, and becoming near-gods, granting powers to followers, etc).
Why is it bad, especially in an evil campaign, for your ally and friend (yes, evil can have friends too), to become a Lich? Because you think he might suddenly feel like you are in his way?
Are you planning on being in their way? You've joined forces so far, why is it absurd to consider that you might remain allies while they are a Lich?Is your reason for being together so untenable that you expect that any given disagreement can't be met with adult discussion rather than "That's it, die!"?
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Regarding the "value" and "cost" of becoming a Lich...
To the first: I wholly agree that much of the logic presented in this thread as possible reasons why they want to kill me (in-game) is, in fact, mostly illogical.
To the second: I don't mind being held back, but I do ask for a logical reason for it rather than "just because." Also, due to my heavy investments and the nature of my character (sheer number of weaknesses that will persist into lichdom), I am of the opinion that one level detained would be balanced rather than two. If my GM does decide to hold me back, this is something I will talk to her about.
Did you just compare becoming a King to becoming a Lich? You do know what a Lich is right? The template carries a +2 CR adjustment to an NPC, that means it more powerful than a NPC of the same level without the Lich Template.I just compared becoming a Lich to becoming a King, yes (or, for bonus points, a Lich-King ^_^). And D&D does a poor job of representing the powers of a king (or any noble whatsoever). You know, things like ARMIES and TAXATION and sometimes even DIVINE RIGHT(s). All of which should conceivably add to somebody's CR.
Point is, there are ways for people to gain 'power' that nobody penalizes them for - out of scale magic item for his level? Check. Titles? Check. Potent Allies? Check. Cheezy PrCs? Check. Optimized character build? Check. Nobody thinks of hitting people with level penalties or holdbacks because of such things.
But suddenly, a template, well, HELL, that's got a CR attached to it! Your PC is SCREWED! You gotta pay back those extra levels you just got, never mind the up front effort it took!
Horsefeathers! (I'm looking at YOU, Pegasus!). IF the RavingDork legitimately put in the effort, time and cash to achieve the very difficult task of Lich-hood (-dom? -enstein?), there's no reason to give an arbitrary mechanical penalty to 'compensate'. There's PLENTY of reasons to introduce roleplaying penalties (adventure hooks et.al.), but to say "Hey, now that you're a Lich, you have to adjust and won't earn normal XP for the next 30,000xp or so." is just plain being punitive. Players shouldn't be punished for achieving something extraordinary while the other players just did 'the usual'.
That is how I feel about it to. "Arbitrary" was a good word to use as that is what it seems like to me for the most part.
There are ingame power mods for becoming a Lich(+2 CR). Can you please point the Fishy in the direction of the King CR modifer and the stat and power add ons that Royalty provide. As that template isn't in any of the books Mr. Fishy owns.
True, but CR is for monsters and NPCs, not PCs. A GM balances PCs amongst themselves, and against the challenges he provides. That can be easily done without effectively docking any levels at all. It makes little sense to me that there are play groups out there where the GM will let there be as much as a 2 level difference between player characters, but the moment I get a 2 level bump from a template (that would roughly put me on par with the other party members) than I should suddenly be treated differently. It's that apparent double standard and hypocrisy that really gets me riled up. (Seriously, how many of you have already said that I should be held back in levels due to the template, AND YET have played or hosted in games where there is as much as a 2-level difference between PCs?)
There are ingame power mods for becoming a Lich(+2 CR). Can you please point the Fishy in the direction of the King CR modifer and the stat and power add ons that Royalty provide. As that template isn't in any of the books Mr. Fishy owns.
That's MY POINT, Mr. Fishy. There isn't one, and there SHOULD BE. Being able to do things like pass laws and declare wars kind of deserves this.
For the record, Kingdoms of Kalamar had divine protections on nobles. Being Emperor gave you SR 10 + Character Level, DR20/+1, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to Duplication, Uncanny Dodge, Divine Grace, +4 vs Charm Spells, and a couple feats. It scaled down from there (and no, it didn't add CR, but probably should have).
Arguing "royalty in campaign" against lich is arguing apples and oranges. There are of course all sorts of ways in-game PC's can obtain perks, whether it be through favors, titles, organizations, whatever. What you tangibly gain is dependent on each individual GM, so is a case-by-case basis.
Applying a template to a character has a direct mechanical effect on the character. It's quantifiable, and should be taken into account from a balance perspective.
I'll agree if you're building a character whole-cloth with the template. For example, if you're building a 13th level campaign, an 11th level lich = 13th level character. But there's a difference between EARNING a template and having it handed to you.
I'm not certain how armies or divine right would add to a king's CR, divine right is a sort of ambiguous
If divine right/protection exists (and it probably would in most game worlds), it should be quantified and probably worth a CR adjustment. If that were the case, would you call for a level adjustment if one became a king?
In the case of extremely powerful templates, it may make more sense to convert the template into a multi-level PrC so the character can acquire the abilities more organically. Savage Species did this for certain monsters so they chould be run as 1st level PC's, and may have done so for some templates.But suddenly, a template, well, HELL, that's got a CR attached to it! Your PC is SCREWED! You gotta pay back those extra levels you just got, never mind the up front effort it took!
This is a very good idea - especially for liches, who already have a psuedo-career path (mortal->lich->demilich->godhood)
Once the "roleplaying" requirements are met the character receives the blessing and becomes half-celestial. The mechanical benefits gained from the template still need to be accounted for in the character build.
Lichdom HAS a mechanical requirement: 120,000gp, 4 months time making a phylactery. For an 11th level character, that's pretty much "all your stuff".
As of late, the other players have taken to telling me that they are going to kill off my witch. Their personalities are such that it is hard to gauge whether they really mean it, or if they are just pulling my leg.Pre-emptive strike on your part
:)
This. Kill one of them, make an example.
Or, let them know you have contingency spells in place should anything ever happen to you, all their secret manipulations will be revealed to the general public.
Better yet, do both.
Lichdom HAS a mechanical requirement: 120,000gp, 4 months time making a phylactery. For an 11th level character, that's pretty much "all your stuff".
The 120K expenditure, if it results in permanent and significant lower treasure for the rest of the campaign, should certainly be considered as part of the "adjustment" for lich template. However, if you read my earlier post, I show very clearly how just a very few of the benefits provide mechanical bonuses that, in equivalent magic items, quickly add up to more value than the 120K spent, espcially considering the benefits become intrinsic and do no occupy magic item slots.
So if your statement is this: "spending 120,000gp and 4 months game-time making a phylactery is sufficent to balance out all of the abilities gained from the lich template in the Pathfinder SRD" then I would say you are completely wrong. And I would be willing to bet that anyone who designs RPG's professionally would agree with me. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it's pretty clear cut.
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Not all evil characters think that way. Dr. Doom for instance thinks he's the best thing that Latveria has ever had, that he's created a veritable paradise for his people. Doesn't change the fact that the means he uses to maintain his kingdom puts him solidly in the Lawful Evil bracket.
I'd say that Doom actually even borders on Lawful Neutral. And he actually has some evidence backing his theory that he's the best leader for the world...on the few occasions that he HAS managed to gain control of the planet, he's brought about world peace, improved the environment, improved the economy, etc, etc. For the vast majority of poeple living on the planet, Doom's rule actually improves the world. And the minority who don't agree are summarily executed, so their opinions don't matter in the long run.
True, but CR is for monsters and NPCs, not PCs. A GM balances PCs amongst themselves, and against the challenges he provides. That can be easily done without effectively docking any levels at all. It makes little sense to me that there are play groups out there where the GM will let there be as much as a 2 level difference between player characters, but the moment I get a 2 level bump from a template (that would roughly put me on par with the other party members) than I should suddenly be treated differently. It's that apparent double standard and hypocrisy that really gets me riled up. (Seriously, how many of you have already said that I should be held back in levels due to the template, AND YET have played or hosted in games where there is as much as a 2-level difference between PCs?)
The CR system is recomended to use for monster characters as well (Bestiary pages 313-314). I agree, level adjustments are awful, especially for casters, which is why I have suggested alternatives. The best one is to use a prestige class, start at level 12 and by level 16 you have all the powers of a lich, maybe dropping one caster level in the process.
So if your statement is this: "spending 120,000gp and 4 months game-time making a phylactery is sufficent to balance out all of the abilities gained from the lich template in the Pathfinder SRD" then I would say you are completely wrong.
Lichdom HAS a mechanical requirement: 120,000gp, 4 months time making a phylactery. For an 11th level character, that's pretty much "all your stuff".
What 'balances' the extra power out is the effort required to actually earn the template in the first place - i.e. it's a reward for moving steadily towards a goal and making sacrifices to achieve it - from the sounds of it, more than just money/time sacrifices. And a PC lich suffers from problems that NPC liches do not - how many PCs are regarded as undead abominations by most of the world? It's great for Mr-I-Live-Alone-In-A-Dungeon-Doing-Ageless-Research Lich...for Adventuring Lich, not so much. Heck, I'm not even sure if you can suppress the Fear Aura...
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So if your statement is this: "spending 120,000gp and 4 months game-time making a phylactery is sufficent to balance out all of the abilities gained from the lich template in the Pathfinder SRD" then I would say you are completely wrong. And I would be willing to bet that anyone who designs RPG's professionally would agree with me. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it's pretty clear cut.
I believe his statement is, and know mine is, that spending 120,000 of your WBL is a signifigant investment at that level. Which means that while the benefits he receives are non-slotted, he has that much less money to spend on slotted items and will have lesser items than he would have otherwise.
Heck, I'm not even sure if you can suppress the Fear Aura...
Or the Paralyzing Touch...
So if your statement is this: "spending 120,000gp and 4 months game-time making a phylactery is sufficent to balance out all of the abilities gained from the lich template in the Pathfinder SRD" then I would say you are completely wrong. And I would be willing to bet that anyone who designs RPG's professionally would agree with me. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it's pretty clear cut.I believe his statement is, and know mine is, that spending 120,000 of your WBL is a signifigant investment at that level. Which means that while the benefits he receives are non-slotted, he has that much less money to spend on slotted items and will have lesser items than he would have otherwise.
That too. ^_^
At 11th level, it's MORE than all your money WBL. So you automatically have less than nothing, and probably had lots of nothing (but bags of cash) leading up to it. Long-term pain for long-term gain, IMO.
At 11th level, it's MORE than all your money WBL. So you automatically have less than nothing, and probably had lots of nothing (but bags of cash) leading up to it. Long-term pain for long-term gain, IMO.
The character spends 120K gold to gain tangible benefits orders of magnitude more powerful if you tried to duplicate them with magic items. But that's balanced because they spent 120K. Your logic eludes me....
I played in a campaign a while back that had "end boss" BBEG that were basically immortal (and epic level).
We were discussing tactics, and the wizard was seriously considering becoming a Lich to be able to take on these badasses.
My response as the Melee-centric character? "May I be your Death Knight good sir." (This was a campaign where mortals were becoming immortal, and becoming near-gods, granting powers to followers, etc).
Why is it bad, especially in an evil campaign, for your ally and friend (yes, evil can have friends too), to become a Lich? Because you think he might suddenly feel like you are in his way?
Are you planning on being in their way? You've joined forces so far, why is it absurd to consider that you might remain allies while they are a Lich?Is your reason for being together so untenable that you expect that any given disagreement can't be met with adult discussion rather than "That's it, die!"?
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Regarding the "value" and "cost" of becoming a Lich...
The PRD already has rules on "Monsters as PCs". You will, at the very least, need to count the CR increase as class levels:
"Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels."
Note that the bestiary entry has the 11th level human necromancer (normally a CR 10) as CR 12. 11th level + CR 2 is 13, and -1 for being an NPC.
So as a player, you'd be at least 13th level.The DM has two choices for this:
1. At 11th level, you become a Lich and are considered 13th level. You gain a reduced amount of experience, or stop leveling (if you play without experience) until the other players catch up.
2. You start leveling slower now, taking longer to reach 11th level, so that by the time you get there and can become a Lich, your allies are now 13th level and the APL remains even amongst you.
I understand that a lot of time and energy was spent and you gave up a lot of magic items/power to get this. The problem is that all of those things (other than the money instead of magic...
+1. Yeah what he said.
Did you just compare becoming a King to becoming a Lich? You do know what a Lich is right? The template carries a +2 CR adjustment to an NPC, that means it more powerful than a NPC of the same level without the Lich Template.I just compared becoming a Lich to becoming a King, yes (or, for bonus points, a Lich-King ^_^). And D&D does a poor job of representing the powers of a king (or any noble whatsoever). You know, things like ARMIES and TAXATION and sometimes even DIVINE RIGHT(s). All of which should conceivably add to somebody's CR.
Point is, there are ways for people to gain 'power' that nobody penalizes them for - out of scale magic item for his level? Check. Titles? Check. Potent Allies? Check. Cheezy PrCs? Check. Optimized character build? Check. Nobody thinks of hitting people with level penalties or holdbacks because of such things.
But suddenly, a template, well, HELL, that's got a CR attached to it! Your PC is SCREWED! You gotta pay back those extra levels you just got, never mind the up front effort it took!
Horsefeathers! (I'm looking at YOU, Pegasus!). IF the RavingDork legitimately put in the effort, time and cash to achieve the very difficult task of Lich-hood (-dom? -enstein?), there's no reason to give an arbitrary mechanical penalty to 'compensate'. There's PLENTY of reasons to introduce roleplaying penalties (adventure hooks et.al.), but to say "Hey, now that you're a Lich, you have to adjust and won't earn normal XP for the next 30,000xp or so." is just plain being punitive. Players shouldn't be punished for achieving something extraordinary while the other players just did 'the usual'.
Most of those things that people use to get power are denied or countered by competent DM's.
So all your checks have now been counter checked, and if you search on the interwebs long enough you will find that people have issues with those too.
The character spends 120K gold to gain tangible benefits orders of magnitude more powerful if you tried to duplicate them with magic items. But that's balanced because they spent 120K. Your logic eludes me....
See my other post regarding balance. Scraping the money/time is just part of the picture, and a PC lich has issues ASIDE from stats/powers that make lichdom less attractive. It's not all sunshine and roses...in fact, scratch the desiccating sunshine and wilt the roses...
The "effort", such as quests, monies, research, whatever, is part and parcel of achieving the end goal.
This is what is in the lich template. It says this, but only with more words. Nice summary.
Most of those things that people use to get power are denied or countered by punative DM's.
Fixed that for you. ^_^
Seriously, if a DM has a problem with PCs getting these kinds of powers, they should say so up front, rather than letting them 'have them' and immediately curtail them or apply some sort of 'balance'. That's more competent DM'ing, and a competent DM will apply logical consequences - kingship pretty much precludes 'regular' adventures and society generally frowns on lichdom.
So, BAM, she's a powerful lich. Meet the other side of the equation - paladins, clergy, undead hunters, frightened populace.
Then obviously you need to raise the price to what you feel is appropriate. Raise it high enough and you'll never need worry about any but the most severe of munchkins in your game.
... or apply a further price from elsewhere. For 3.5 the LA for a lich was +4. Dropping it to +2 seems to me to be very reasonable here ...
So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?
Heres a question
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
Yes or no explain it you wish but please answer the question first.
True, but CR is for monsters and NPCs, not PCs. A GM balances PCs amongst themselves, and against the challenges he provides. That can be easily done without effectively docking any levels at all. It makes little sense to me that there are play groups out there where the GM will let there be as much as a 2 level difference between player characters, but the moment I get a 2 level bump from a template (that would roughly put me on par with the other party members) than I should suddenly be treated differently. It's that apparent double standard and hypocrisy that really gets me riled up. (Seriously, how many of you have already said that I should be held back in levels due to the template, AND YET have played or hosted in games where there is as much as a 2-level difference between PCs?)
It has already been quoted upthread that the CR should be close to the increased level of the PC.
Another issue is that you think the template puts you on par with the other players, but we think it puts you past them. Unless they have really powerful builds we dont see how a sorcerer(one of the better classes) gets a powerful template and only comes up to being par. A sorcerer is not a wizard, but they are still extremely dangerous.You may have played in games with a 2 level difference, but I, and most DM's I have met try to keep everyone within one level.
What dangerous encounters did he throw at the party? I dont see how you are alive without the DM's mercy.
You said the DM balances groups amongst themselves. What does that mean?
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... or apply a further price from elsewhere. For 3.5 the LA for a lich was +4. Dropping it to +2 seems to me to be very reasonable here ...
For the most part I would protest a LA vehemently. They are rarely anything good, messing up saves and HD for paltry benefits.
However, considering the composition of this sorcerer, I would accept a +2 LA. She's survived this long, she should have no trouble after the boost.
In the case of extremely powerful templates, it may make more sense to convert the template into a multi-level PrC so the character can acquire the abilities more organically. Savage Species did this for certain monsters so they chould be run as 1st level PC's, and may have done so for some templates.But suddenly, a template, well, HELL, that's got a CR attached to it! Your PC is SCREWED! You gotta pay back those extra levels you just got, never mind the up front effort it took!
This is a very good idea - especially for liches, who already have a psuedo-career path (mortal->lich->demilich->godhood)
Once the "roleplaying" requirements are met the character receives the blessing and becomes half-celestial. The mechanical benefits gained from the template still need to be accounted for in the character build.Lichdom HAS a mechanical requirement: 120,000gp, 4 months time making a phylactery. For an 11th level character, that's pretty much "all your stuff".
You forgot about the +2 CR and to quote another poster
Regarding the "value" and "cost" of becoming a Lich...
The PRD already has rules on "Monsters as PCs". You will, at the very least, need to count the CR increase as class levels:
"Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels."
Note that the bestiary entry has the 11th level human necromancer (normally a CR 10) as CR 12.
11th level + CR 2 is 13, and -1 for being an NPC.
So as a player, you'd be at least 13th level.
So if your statement is this: "spending 120,000gp and 4 months game-time making a phylactery is sufficent to balance out all of the abilities gained from the lich template in the Pathfinder SRD" then I would say you are completely wrong.
Lichdom HAS a mechanical requirement: 120,000gp, 4 months time making a phylactery. For an 11th level character, that's pretty much "all your stuff".What 'balances' the extra power out is the effort required to actually earn the template in the first place - i.e. it's a reward for moving steadily towards a goal and making sacrifices to achieve it - from the sounds of it, more than just money/time sacrifices. And a PC lich suffers from problems that NPC liches do not - how many PCs are regarded as undead abominations by most of the world? It's great for Mr-I-Live-Alone-In-A-Dungeon-Doing-Ageless-Research Lich...for Adventuring Lich, not so much. Heck, I'm not even sure if you can suppress the Fear Aura...
Disguises, magical and mundane do exist.
So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?
Heres a question
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
Yes or no explain it you wish but please answer the question first.
Humm good questions once more sir fishy
1: No..he would have been long dead with his str score alone I would not have allowed that pc as viable
2: Not and stay a pc, as I do not run evil games.
3: It depends I am not sure on the last one, but I know as a player if another player aims toward the lich I would leave the party or talk to the other players about kicking that pc out. Because once he becomes a lich your pc only lives as long as he find you useful.
So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?
Heres a question
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
If I was playing an epic game of that nature, yes. I'm not likely to run that kind of game, though, but if I was, I'd accept it ... and make them suffer the consequences.
However, I'm far more likely to make it a non-epic game, and say that their ability scores as allocated are appropriate for their age, regardless of what age that is. I have no problem with someone wanting to play an older character, but I wouldn't be inclined to give them the modifiers.
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Yes, if it's not a 'no evil' game. I would do so through a prestige class or a series of feats, though.
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
I'm in several different groups. I think some would, and some wouldn't. I'd certainly make sure everyone knew that it was/was not an option before starting.
For the most part I would protest a LA vehemently. They are rarely anything good, messing up saves and HD for paltry benefits.
However, considering the composition of this sorcerer, I would accept a +2 LA. She's survived this long, she should have no trouble after the boost.
I hate them too. I don't think they are a good way of doing things, I prefer to use a PrC progression to achieve the changes.
So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?
Heres a question
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
Yes or no explain it you wish but please answer the question first.
1. Yes, but I would make the strength thing a constant annoyance, not to make it less fun, but in hopes that it would make it more challenging.
2. Yes but I like the CR based LA. For those who say otherwise and don't think there should be LA, then I want to play in your campaign. My idea, an advanced (Cr +1) half dragon (CR +2) Giant Creature (CR +1) human Paladin. Starting stats with 15 Point Buy: Str 30 Dex 12 Con 28 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 22; Nat Armor +9; and 3 natural attacks at Large size with the +10 to attack and damage.
But this is ok, because LA are dumb and this character is still a 1st level character like anyone else.
3. We allow it with LA. It can be a great role-play experience.
So to recap the arguements are Lichs are powerful and gain a lot of powerful abilities vs So?
Heres a question
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
Yes or no explain it you wish but please answer the question first.
(1) Not as written. I wouldn't allow venerable. It's too open for abuse in creating a spellcaster. Want to be old for RP reasons? Cool. Make yourself old. But no, you don't get to trade a bunch of physical stats for boosts to your mental stats. I also wouldn't allow a PC to have a STR of 2 but a CON of 10. Way to much dump statting going on disguised as "roleplaying". Either keep your STR at a 6, or drop your CON to a similar low as your STR. So I'd allow a STR of 2 with a CON of 6.
(2) No or Yes. NO for as written in the Bestiary. Just too much going on (especially with the phylactery). I think it's so powerful as written that a LA would be hard pressed to come up with. IF the player agreed ahead of time that we could create a custom lich template, toning down some of the abilities and as long as it was campaign appropriate (i.e. evil oriented characters)then my answer is yes.
There would still be a significant in-game aspect AND an offset to the mechanical bonuses from the template. This might take the form of a LA or turning the template into a PrC. But there would be some amount of spellcasting sacrifice involved.
(3) As long as it was an evil campaign (which we've successfully run before) and there was some effort to make a reasonable balance, then absolutely. My group is very accepting as long as no one takes some to the game breaking extreme.
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or No
Two...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
One. No. I have a strict requirement that no ability score can be bought less than 8. If you chose a race that has a penalty that would lower an ability score, you cannot buy that score to a value that will eventually lower it farther than an 8.
Occasionally a player will argue that he wants to roleplay a character with a huge glaring weakness and wants an ability score lower than an 8. To such a player I tell him to buy it to an 8 following my rules, and when he is done buying the scores, he can feel free to lower his scores to whatever he wants - no, this doesn't give him extra points to put into his other scores. If he wants to roleplay a weakness, fine, he can have a weakness, but it is not a "tool" to "buy" a strength somewhere else.
Usually when I say that, they suddenly "forget" their grand aspiration to roleplay a weakness, but I have had a couple players go forward with their weakness anyway.
Two. Sure, but that would be the end of that character. It would become a villain NPC under my control and the player would get to replace his lich with a new character of a similar power level (similar to his pre-lich character). I might let the player trot out his lich once in a while, with the understanding that he could roleplay him as a recurring villain working against the PCs (the lich would not have to go against the PCs, but if it doesn't, then there is no value in the player trotting him out, so he could either play his own lich as a story villain, or retire it completely).
Three. Every player would be opposed to it on some level. I don't think any of my players would be opposed out of jealosy ("Whaaa! He got a template and I didn't!") but several would be opposed from a balance perspective ("How can we feel like we're contributing fairly when one PC outshines us all?") and several would be worried about mechanics ("If you throw a monster that challenges our superman, how can we fight it?") and some would worry about spotlight ("Is this group turning into the Superman-and-minions group?").
I think the only way to hand out a powerful template is if the player who receives it must compensate for it mechanically (not simply buying it with gold) or if the other players get something of comparable value so everyone stays roughly on par.
One...Would you allow the character Raving Dork posted? Yes or NoTwo...Would you allow a PC to gain the Lich template?
Three...Would the Group you play in have a problem with a PC gaining a powerful template?
1) Depends. If I know the player, and trust that they're doing it for RP purposes, or if I've worked it out with them ahead of time. I have 3 players I'd let them play this character as posted. I have 2 others I wouldn't let them play that if they paid me to. And they all know who they are and why.
2) Possibly. Certainly in my monster campaign I would. I'd also impose the CR adjustment to level as well. However, since it's a +2 CR adjustment, if they were at 10th+ level, I'd only impose a single level CR adjustment (the rules specifically state you buy off a CR adjustment every 3 levels until you reach 1/2 the original CR adjust). At 10th or higher, I'd just assume wave the buy off period. They'd have to be a 'good' lich though (which do exist in my Monster game). In a normal game, unlikely as a PC. They might gain it but be an NPC at that point (good or evil).
3) Depends on who got it (See #1 above). An RP person, or the guy who gimps his own characters for RP hooks... no, nobody would blink an eye. The guy who munchkins his characters ahead of time trying to out do everyone at everything... yeah, they'd pitch a fit.