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I am just venting.
It seems like whenever I play with a rogue they get stupider by the encounter. I give him two rounds to get into flanking position since his build is so heavily Sneak Attack dependent. argh...
Here is what happened to me in my last encounter to make me "lose my cool". Our group consists of A (retarded) rogue, a Cleric of Adama (home brew main god) and myself a Paladin (thanks for the help building him by the way thank you Thalin!).
We are hunting down some elves who stole artifacts of our god. We end up crossing a bridge. Once we cross the bridge we get distracted and end up in combat with a Scrag. The river underneath the bridge is deep on one side and more shallow on the other side. I being the tankish character of the party run to the scrag to confront it on the shore. The scrag is in ankle deep water. The rogue metagames out loud hey pull him out so I can flank him. I use three rounds to 5 step back (to avoid AoO and still get a hit on the beast) to pull the scrag out. Mean while the rogue is out of reach of the scrag pelting it with arrows (poorly might I add). The scrag is in perfect situation to be flanked. Yes he would be in ankle deep of water but the GM stated it would not effect movement at it shallowness. So I wait for the rogue to flank, mean while I am getting hit, I am fair well but I am still getting hit. So I take it upon myself, "Heck, I am not going to take anymore of a beating. Smite Evil, move to the opposite side of the scrag for the rogue to move up and flank, then bamn I go to town. 2 rounds the beast is down, not once does the Rogue move up into melee for his precious Sneak Attack.
Now I am not a fan of meta-gaming but I attempted to go beyond what a normal person (paladin) would have done just to set up this rogue. You know what it is a game oh well he didn't get Sneak Attack. Then bamn you *%&^ing suck, you are such a selfish player. Although the last game I played a transmuter who only buffed the crap out of the group, rarely actually attacked just went around buffing the crap out of people.
I also did not take a teamwork feat:Precise Strike. Why should I be called out for not going beyond what I already have done to help him? It is not my fault you build something dependent on other people. My role is to go in take hits and dish it the heck out. I waited a few rounds before unleashing my wrath, more than ample time for him to ball up and go into melee.
I am sorry for putting this here I just needed to vent. ARGH!!
For what it's worth, I don't think it's metagaming at all to try and move the bad guy into a favorable position for your allies. Now if no one in the party knew it was a Scrag and the rogue yells, "Get it out of the water so it won't heal!" at the start of the fight....that's metagaming for sure.
No comment on your party member being kinda clueless.
Pulling an enemy into a favorable position to be flanked isn't really metagaming since it's, well, what people in real life would do.
But yeah, your rogue is kinda thick.
tis not an issue with the class, tis an issue with the player. either he is completely new to the game, or he just wants to be disruptive by robbing the party.
He also makes these terribly complex character ideas that are fail.
I have a player in my group who's prefered class is rogue and also makes characters that do a whole lot of complex nothing (he once used 10 skill tricks in a single round to do what amounted to a single shot with a longbow, unmodified). You might want to try to help him spruce up his character or just in the future, in game shout, 'come over here and get on the other side of X [rogues name]. We can attack him from both sides'.
But all the chicks dig rogues. That's why I always take at least one level...
I agree, you've got someone who isn't pulling his/her weight. But this isn't related to rogues. I've seen utterly useless bards, wizards, and monks too.
You'd see more useless melee builds too, but they tend to die off quickly
Cleric of Adama
Adama happens to be in Shining South FR book :D
Sounds like the rogue didn't want to get close enough to risk getting hit by the scrag, which can do some pretty hideous damage. Fair enough. Rogues aren't meant to be front line fighters, and if he'd rather stay at range and plink away with his bow, that's a valid decision. Not everything is about maximizing damage. Minimizing risk isn't bad either, particularly if you are a weaselly little rogue.
But I'd be ticked too, if he suggested flanking a critter and then didn't hold up his end. The issue isn't with his choice of tactics, it is with your expectations after he suggested flanking, and the fact you acted on those suggestions in a way that was less than optimal for you and increased your own risk. I would say your paladin would (in game) be fully justified in applying a holy boot to his bony roguish backside.
I have a player in my group who's prefered class is rogue and also makes characters that do a whole lot of complex nothing (he once used 10 skill tricks in a single round to do what amounted to a single shot with a longbow, unmodified).
You said it. I've seen this type of player several times (Hey, look! While everyone else is in a desperate fight to the death, I'm piddling around and "helping"!), and 9 times out of 10 they're playing a rogue or a bard. That can easily sour a person on rogues (and bards, although at least the bards get off an Inspire Courage once in a while). :-)
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I have a player in my group who's prefered class is rogue and also makes characters that do a whole lot of complex nothing (he once used 10 skill tricks in a single round to do what amounted to a single shot with a longbow, unmodified).You said it. I've seen this type of player several times (Hey, look! While everyone else is in a desperate fight to the death, I'm piddling around and "helping"!), and 9 times out of 10 they're playing a rogue or a bard. That can easily sour a person on rogues (and bards, although at least the bards get off an Inspire Courage once in a while). :-)
Now that you mention it, I've seen this character type before. He was a high strength bard that specialized in thrown daggers. The player was out for a game, and the person NPCing the character had him pick up some javelins. He went from "WTF is wrong with you throwing daggers and being so useless" to "hey, using javelins actually gives him the range to be useful."
Of course, once the player returned, the javelins did not...
You said it. I've seen this type of player several times (Hey, look! While everyone else is in a desperate fight to the death, I'm piddling around and "helping"!), and 9 times out of 10 they're playing a rogue or a bard. That can easily sour a person on rogues (and bards, although at least the bards get off an Inspire Courage once in a while). :-)Now that you mention it, I've seen this character type before. He was a high strength bard that specialized in thrown daggers. The player was out for a game, and the person NPCing the character had him pick up some javelins. He went from "WTF is wrong with you throwing daggers and being so useless" to "hey, using javelins actually gives him the range to be useful."
Of course, once the player returned, the javelins did not...
I was thinking more along the lines of the following type of character:
Str 9
Dex 17
Con 7
Int 15
Wis 17
Cha 16
Feats: Deceitful, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip)
Battle Tactics: Try to do fancy whip tricks, ideally tricks that aren't covered by the rules (possibly involving swinging from a chandelier or sliding down a banister). Run off alone, as desired.
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The whole things reminds me of a rogue in a group I was running Crimson Throne for.
In one encounter he spent five or six rounds running around trying to hide in different places. Eventually, he put himself in a position where he was isolated from the rest of the group and attacked the BBEG of the encounter where no one could help him when he got in trouble. This was a long time ago so I am not sure but I believe he went down fairly quickly and had to be rescued after the rest of the group got finished with the initial battle and could move to the next room to take on the more difficult opponents.
There was always something with this character either taking rounds to try and get set up on someone or getting himself separated from the group.
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It sounds like you really need to talk with the player and ask why he didn't flank after saying he wanted to flank.
In the games I play in, character's will position themselves to best advantage, which includes moving to take advantage of flanking, but if the rogue's not in combat then someone else will take up the flanking position. they'll move if he's ready to come in, but have no reason to otherwise.
From the sounds of things it sounds like you have a Rouge in your party, not a Rogue.
And yes ranged Sneak Attack is abysmally limited, although has it's uses. That is why a Smart Rogue keeps a Longspear handy .... what, we do!
Nothing wrong with the tactic that the Rogue player suggested, and nothing is wrong with Rogues in general either.
His reaction to a Paladin using smite evil on an evil foe is pathetic though. Does he whine when the Cleric heals someone too?
Nothing wrong with the tactic that the Rogue player suggested, and nothing is wrong with Rogues in general either.
His reaction to a Paladin using smite evil on an evil foe is pathetic though. Does he whine when the Cleric heals someone too?
+1
Nothings wrong with rogues, quite the opposite.
I love playing rogue. Rogues have a tn of skills and abilities that benefit the party both in combat and outside combat situations.
I ussually play more aggresive than the rogue player in your group. I take calculated chances though. I will have extreme initiative and oppen every encounter with ranged sneak attacks when possible. If the enemy is farther away I will charge if I think I can give a talling blow. I then let the tanks take over. I actively seek out flanking and manuever with Acrobatics when at all possible. If I cannot reach a flanking position with Acrobatics, I drop tumbling and default to the Mobility feat.
If I draw too much heat (which a rogue often does after a couple of sneak attacks) I pull out or change target.
From what you describe your rogue's player is a cowardly opportunist. Its the player whos the problem, not the class. You might want to suggest that player to consider the tactics I just described.
Back in my day, we called it "backstab". And we liked it. None of this fancy schmancy "flanking" crap.
It's possible the player didn't recognize what you were doing, thinking that "pull the scrag out" meant that you would do a combat maneuver.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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A Battlestar Galactica pantheon?"
Best. Idea. Ever.
Not quite. I'd go with a Star Trek (TOS) pantheon:
- Kirk - King of the Gods, God of War
- Spock - God of Law and Wisdom
- McCoy - God of Nature and Healing
- Scotty - God of Smiths and Creation
- Sulu - God of Travel
- Chekov - God of Chaos and Pride
- Uhura - Goddess of Communication and Divination
- Chapel - Goddess of Mercy and Compassion
- Rand - Goddess of Love
- Khan - God of the Underworld
- Mudd - God of Trickery and Luck
Tell your rogue to plus up on bluff skill point, get the improved faint feat, and then stop wasting rounds trying to flank. Just do a faint as a move action and you get your sneak attack in.
Tell your rogue to plus up on bluff skill point, get the improved faint feat, and then stop wasting rounds trying to flank. Just do a faint as a move action and you get your sneak attack in.
Bolded the spelling errors for hilarity. Improved Faint is only for Princesses that get captured by giant dragon-turtle serial stalker monsters, don't you know?
*burns from the bad karma and stops, drops and rolls out of the thread!*
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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If you don't limit to TOS, you can include:
Picard, god of wine and beverages (also revering hot Earl Grey tea)
Riker, god of facial hair
Troi, goddes of seduction
Data, god of ConstructsAnd of course
Q, god of asshattery.
NICE!! I think we may be on to something...
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A Battlestar Galactica pantheon?"
Best. Idea. Ever.
Not quite. I'd go with a Star Trek (TOS) pantheon:
- Kirk - King of the Gods, God of War
- Spock - God of Law and Wisdom
- McCoy - God of Nature and Healing
- Scotty - God of Smiths and Creation
- Sulu - God of Travel
- Chekov - God of Chaos and Pride
- Uhura - Goddess of Communication and Divination
- Chapel - Goddess of Mercy and Compassion
- Rand - Goddess of Love
- Khan - God of the Underworld
- Mudd - God of Trickery and Luck
Consider this stolen.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Consider this stolen.A Battlestar Galactica pantheon?"
Best. Idea. Ever.
Not quite. I'd go with a Star Trek (TOS) pantheon:
- Kirk - King of the Gods, God of War
- Spock - God of Law and Wisdom
- McCoy - God of Nature and Healing
- Scotty - God of Smiths and Creation
- Sulu - God of Travel
- Chekov - God of Chaos and Pride
- Uhura - Goddess of Communication and Divination
- Chapel - Goddess of Mercy and Compassion
- Rand - Goddess of Love
- Khan - God of the Underworld
- Mudd - God of Trickery and Luck
Enjoy!
If you don't limit to TOS, you can include:
Picard, god of wine and beverages (also revering hot Earl Grey tea)
Riker, god of facial hair
Troi, goddes of seduction
Data, god of ConstructsAnd of course
Q, god of asshattery.
Does that mean that Riker is the god of dwarves?
In addition, if there was such a combined pantheon the followers of picard and the followers of kirk would have to be at constant war with eachother despite the fact that the 2 deities actually exist in good standing with eachother.
I am just venting.
It seems like whenever I play with a rogue they get stupider by the encounter. I give him two rounds to get into flanking position since his build is so heavily Sneak Attack dependent. argh...
Here is what happened to me in my last encounter to make me "lose my cool". Our group consists of A (retarded) rogue, a Cleric of Adama (home brew main god) and myself a Paladin (thanks for the help building him by the way thank you Thalin!).
We are hunting down some elves who stole artifacts of our god. We end up crossing a bridge. Once we cross the bridge we get distracted and end up in combat with a Scrag. The river underneath the bridge is deep on one side and more shallow on the other side. I being the tankish character of the party run to the scrag to confront it on the shore. The scrag is in ankle deep water. The rogue metagames out loud hey pull him out so I can flank him. I use three rounds to 5 step back (to avoid AoO and still get a hit on the beast) to pull the scrag out. Mean while the rogue is out of reach of the scrag pelting it with arrows (poorly might I add). The scrag is in perfect situation to be flanked. Yes he would be in ankle deep of water but the GM stated it would not effect movement at it shallowness. So I wait for the rogue to flank, mean while I am getting hit, I am fair well but I am still getting hit. So I take it upon myself, "Heck, I am not going to take anymore of a beating. Smite Evil, move to the opposite side of the scrag for the rogue to move up and flank, then bamn I go to town. 2 rounds the beast is down, not once does the Rogue move up into melee for his precious Sneak Attack.
Now I am not a fan of meta-gaming but I attempted to go beyond what a normal person (paladin) would have done just to set up this rogue. You know what it is a game oh well he didn't get Sneak Attack. Then bamn you *%&^ing suck, you are such a selfish player. Although the last game I played a transmuter who only buffed the crap out of the group, rarely actually attacked just...
You should get the rest of the group to hold him down with a blanket, put a bar of soap in a sock, use your paladine divine bond to make it merciful and beat him in his sleep every night. Then get an atonement in the morning.
I'm still trying to figure out how to fit a tanglefoot bag into this scenario.
What would you think of a rogue that pulled a large snake out of a tree to beat a couple fire beetles to death? I had the rogue I played in one campaign do that and the rest of the party cheered as I was the last one left standing at the end of the fight. Yeah, we were pretty low level at that point. But that rogue of mine went on to progressively more awesome feats of prowess as the campaign moved along. He is now the iconic rogue character that gets referred to in every adventure we've played since.
Hating bad players = OK
Hating rogues = Bad decision
Had a guy playing a fighter in one of my old groups decide he needed to explore a small side tunnel. This was during Age of Worms and the place was littered with a bunch of side tunnels. The rest of the party wanted to go in the direction they had been going in but he insisted on going down the side tunnel. I even said to him "Look, I can tell you right now, there is nothing down there of any use to you guys, you will serve no constructive purpose to the game going down there." in an attempt to maintain party cohesion and not waste our limited time.
He insisted on going regardless.
He even rolled his eyes and put his hands in a shadow puppet form in that mocking fashion people do when they say someone talks too much.
This dude was going down.
So I let him, in his full plate and greatsword, go down the cramped partially flooded tunnels to the chamber filled with oozes.
Never has a PC death been so satisfying to the group (save for him) as he was fighting creatures he was not equipped to fight the other players kept shouting out any and every rule that might hinder him. Eventually he went down an a pile of oozy death while the other party members went on without him.
The game ended not long after that for other reasons. The player was not invited back.
I am all in favor of helping the rogue flank. With my current character I've been keeping that in mind, with Mobility, acrobatics, an animal companion, and the ability to summon animals. (It may only be Summon Nature's Ally I, but they can still flank.) I'm even thinking of teaching my animal companion a Flank trick.
But the Rogue has to do his bit.
I'm thinking of taking a level of Rogue, the Haste spell, and the Spring Attack feat. It would be fun to be able to run behind the enemy to a flanking position, sneak attack, pick his pockets (or belt pouch, backpack, whatever), run back behind the Paladin, and wave to the nice enemy.
Consider this stolen.A Battlestar Galactica pantheon?"
Best. Idea. Ever.
Not quite. I'd go with a Star Trek (TOS) pantheon:
- Kirk - King of the Gods, God of War
- Spock - God of Law and Wisdom
- McCoy - God of Nature and Healing
- Scotty - God of Smiths and Creation
- Sulu - God of Travel
- Chekov - God of Chaos and Pride
- Uhura - Goddess of Communication and Divination
- Chapel - Goddess of Mercy and Compassion
- Rand - Goddess of Love
- Khan - God of the Underworld
- Mudd - God of Trickery and Luck
Beware, for this pantheon, we are all red shirts !!