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Hi!
Can you help me with the balance of this conversion of the binder from the Tome of Magic? In particular, are the Improved Pact Augmentation powers and Greater Pact Augmentation powers appropriate for the levels you get them? And are they balanced against the Pact Augmentation bonus that is available when they are (+3 for Improved, +5 for Greater)? The Greater Pact Augmentation ability is designed to be the capstone ability for this class.
There is a chance I will be able to play a binder character in an upcoming homebrew campaign, and I want to make sure it is balanced. We'll be starting at level 3, there will be just 2 players, and there is no divine magic. The other PC will probably be a duskblade. I'm thinking of playing a Changeling Binder.
Binder
BAB: +3/4
Good Saves: Fortitude and Will
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana,
history, planes, religion), Linguistics, Profession, Sense Motive.
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier.
Binders are proficient in all Simple Weapons. They are proficient in
Light Armor.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Soul Binding (1 vestige)
2. Pact Augmentation +1
3. Suppress Sign
4. Bonus Feat
5. Pact Augmentation +2
6. Soul Guardian (immune to fear)
7. Soul Binding (2 vestiges)
8. Bonus Feat
9. Rapid Soul Binding (1 full round action)
10. Pact Augmentation +3, Soul Guardian (slippery mind)
11. Improved Pact Augmentations
12. Bonus Feat
13. Soul Binding (3 vestiges)
14. Soul Guardian (immune to negative levels and negative energy)
15. Pact Augmentation +4
16. Bonus Feat
17. Rapid Soul Binding (1 swift action)
18. Soul Guardian (mind blank)
19. Soul Binding (4 vestiges)
20. Bonus Feat, Pact Augmentation +5, Greater Pact Augmentations
Rapid Soul Binding (Su). At 9th level, number of times per day equal
to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1), you can bind a vestige as a full round action. At 17th level, a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1), you can bind a vestige as a swift action. This ability does not allow you to bind more than your normal number of vestiges.
Improved Pact Augmentations (Su). At 11th level, your Pact
Augmentation options to choose from increase to include the following:
Fast Healing 1 per plus allocated (up to 1/2 your maximum hit points).
20% chance to negate extra damage from a critical hit or sneak attack
per plus allocated.
10% miss chance per plus allocated.
+1 on all Skill Checks
Spell Resistance equal to 5 + 5 per plus allocated.
Spirit Shield 2 per plus allocated (any opponent that hits you with a
non-reach weapon, natural attack, or unarmed strike takes 2 points of
un-typed arcane energy per plus).
+5 feet of speed per plus.
+1 to the Save DC of any supernatural ability.
DR 5/magic per plus.
+1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls (overcomes DR/magic).
+1 insight bonus to a single ability score.
+2 insight bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
+2 insight bonus to all checks to avoid non-lethal damage.
1 daily luck re-roll per plus.
+1 damage per die of damage for supernatural effects.
Greater Pact Augmentations (Su). At 20th level, your Pact
Augmentation options to choose from increase to include the following:
+1 insight bonus on Binder checks.
+1 to your effective Binder Level for level-dependent effects.
DR 5/epic per plus.
+1 extra swift action per round.
+1 extra 5 foot step per round.
+1 extra daily use of supernatural ability or use of a feat that
affects a supernatural ability.
Reduce the recovery time between uses of supernatural effects by 1
round per plus.
Ability Damage and Drain reduced by 1.
Regeneration 2 per plus.
Have you had a chance to test out this writeup yet SmiloDon?
I'm very curious to see how it works out.
The only Augmentation that seems overpowered to me is this one:
DR 5/Epic per +
That is way too nasty! Think about other classes that get a race or subtype change at 20th level, a Monk, for example gets DR 10/Chaotic.
DR Epic is just something too esoteric at level 20 I think. Especially considering we don't even have Epic PF rules anyway. Having a potential of DR 25/Epic on a character is a very intimidating prospect, basically no non-epic character or monster would be able to hurt the character at all.
I'd either replace that with an untyped DR like
DR 2/- per plus perhaps....
Have you had a chance to test out this writeup yet SmiloDon?
I'm very curious to see how it works out.
The only Augmentation that seems overpowered to me is this one:DR 5/Epic per +
That is way too nasty! Think about other classes that get a race or subtype change at 20th level, a Monk, for example gets DR 10/Chaotic.
DR Epic is just something too esoteric at level 20 I think. Especially considering we don't even have Epic PF rules anyway. Having a potential of DR 25/Epic on a character is a very intimidating prospect, basically no non-epic character or monster would be able to hurt the character at all.
I'd either replace that with an untyped DR like
DR 2/- per plus perhaps....
Thanks for the feedback. I'll start a 3rd level version of this on Wednesday or Thursday, I think. I'm playing a human with an angelic bloodline that gave me Powerful Build and +2 to Con (my human bonus went into +2 Cha). The duskblade is my PCs twin and has Powerful Build and +2 Str from his angelic stuff. I'll probably rely on Focalor usually.
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You might be interested in the book "Secrets of Pact Magic": http://www.pactmagic.com/home.htm
It's an entire book of material based on the same concept as the Tome of Magic's Binder. It was written with 3.5 in mind, but there's a Pathfinder conversion guide available on his web site. It's definitely worth picking up if you like pact magic.
This is just one of those "spur of the moment" thoughts......
I was just looking at the Demonbinder PrC (3.5) where the character had "damnation points" that they could use to buy different abilities to represent different demons they have formed pacts with.
What if you took a completely different approach, and made a class that has a point pool (Cha mod + level)that they can use to "buy" abilities from the Eidolon abilities list ???
Instead of having to right up a billion beings that can be bound, the player would be responsible for creating how his binding effects him ?
I just started the binder campaign today. It went OK, but I had horrible, horrible luck with my rolls, so it wasn't a very fair assessment of what the binder could do. It helps that the DM is good about giving subtle "hints" about what we are to expect, so I can prepare the proper the vestige ahead of time. I'm using Focalor as my default, and that is working pretty good for fights. I also got to try on Naberius for some social encounters in a city, and its Command ability is really useful when trying to distract a single NPC so you can skadoodle out of there without causing a racket.
This is just one of those "spur of the moment" thoughts......
I was just looking at the Demonbinder PrC (3.5) where the character had "damnation points" that they could use to buy different abilities to represent different demons they have formed pacts with.
What if you took a completely different approach, and made a class that has a point pool (Cha mod + level)that they can use to "buy" abilities from the Eidolon abilities list ???
Instead of having to right up a billion beings that can be bound, the player would be responsible for creating how his binding effects him ?
That's a cool idea, but it kind of removes the best thing about the Binder; its flavor.
Mechanically speaking, the Binder is Tier 3 at best. Its a jack-of-all-trades class, just like Bard or Alchemist. The thing that set it apart was the amazing fluff of the vestiges, as well as the extremely flavorful powers it had. Gutting that entire aspect of the class removes the spirit of the class.
Regarding the 10% miss chance Pact Augmentation option:
Assuming they're cumulative (maybe they're not), if a 20th-level binder took that 5 times and bound with Orthos (who grants a permanent displacement effect), they'd be literally impossible to hit. Maybe make it "5% miss chance per plus"?
Maybe I should clarify it more. It is a concealment/displacement effect, so it would overlap (and not stack) with blur, displacement, etc.
Oh cool, again dotting for later like the truenamer and once again plugging my own shadowcaster conversion
That's a cool idea, but it kind of removes the best thing about the Binder; its flavor.Mechanically speaking, the Binder is Tier 3 at best. Its a jack-of-all-trades class, just like Bard or Alchemist. The thing that set it apart was the amazing fluff of the vestiges, as well as the extremely flavorful powers it had. Gutting that entire aspect of the class removes the spirit of the class.
I didn't find the fluff for the vestiges to be that "amazing"....in fact, I found most of them to be a bit silly....but hey, different strokes ;)
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It was interesting enough to get it's own class or at least as an archetype.
SmiloDan I'm a great fan of a lot of your homebrew stuff :) thank you very much your contributions :)
I just wish this was a bit well written but I will have to get me a Tome of Magic again to have the fluff available and make the appropriate changes.
I've loved the Binder since it was released, but never got a chance to play one. DM's always seemed spooked by them.
They're basically just secondary tanks with some people skills and knowledge skills, and just a few suites of special abilities.
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Authors of Secrets of Pact Magic (3.5ed) released Pathfinder version of the book: Pact Magic Unbound: Volume One!
On their facebook's forum is downloadable free beta version of Pact Magic Unbound.
I am testing is in my current campaign.
Authors of Secrets of Pact Magic (3.5ed) released Pathfinder version of the book: Pact Magic Unbound: Volume One!
On their facebook's forum is downloadable free beta version of Pact Magic Unbound.
I am testing is in my current campaign.
You flatter me, but Dario wrote Secrets of Pact Magic by himself. :-)
We are very similar to Tome of Magic, but I like to imagine our product is much better balanced against things like that. As a matter of fact, several new mechanics were developed to help with balance. You can check it out here on Paizo or on said Facebook thread. But I warn you, the Facebook version is ugly and HORRENDOUSLY out of date!
Huzzah!!!
Just purchased the bundle, paid for out of my Gencon budget... Not sure when I'll be able to PLAY one, but I loved me some Binders way back when.
Just purchased the bundle, paid for out of my Gencon budget... Not sure when I'll be able to PLAY one, but I loved me some Binders way back when.
I'll be rooting for ya!
Personally, as a GM myself I think part of the fear comes from this idea that you're bringing the GM a 3PP supplement that they themselves don't possess. A good GM wants time to prepare for whatever's coming, and they don't get that luxury when a player is using material out of a book they can't look at.
If you want to get a GM to let you play something, your best bet is to either A) GM a game yourself and let your other friends / players experience the content so that when its their turn to GM, they'll be comfortable enough to let you try it out, B) GM a game yourself and expose the players to a friendly NPC that uses the options, or C) talk your friends into buying their own copy of the material.
Or gift it to them! :)
EDIT: Also, with all the great GenCon products floating around in August, I'm flattered that you bought ours. Thanks! :D
I'm running a level-upped version of Rise of the Runelords, and I think I'll be making Erylium into an Occultist. I'm liking what I've read so far. Well done.
I picked up that Pact Unbound PDF.. I must be missing something..I found the original binder seemingly better. While the new "occultist" is different, alot of the "spirits" you bind seem "meh" til higher levels.
Anyone else pick up Pact Unbound that can shed some light on this, or go over it ??