| Particle_Man |
Unlike Shadow Magic and Demi-Shadow Magic, it seems that Shades can duplicate *any* lower level Conjuration spell on the Sorcerer's spell list. This would include Teleport and Planar Binding.
So first, is that right?
Second, would that result in Teleports that have an 80% chance of working?
Third, would that result in a Planar Binding on a real outsider that has an 80% chance of being effective, or a Planar Binding on a shadowy duplicate of an outsider that is 80% as powerful? If that latter, is any gift required with the Binding, or is it just an illusion of a gift for the illusion of an outsider?
| Majuba |
First, yes.
Second, yes.
Third, the former, unless your DM is cruel. Then it's an 100% chance of calling the creature, and an 80% chance of actually binding it.
| David Spaar |
Unlike Shadow Magic and Demi-Shadow Magic, it seems that Shades can duplicate *any* lower level Conjuration spell on the Sorcerer's spell list. This would include Teleport and Planar Binding.
So first, is that right?
Second, would that result in Teleports that have an 80% chance of working?
Third, would that result in a Planar Binding on a real outsider that has an 80% chance of being effective, or a Planar Binding on a shadowy duplicate of an outsider that is 80% as powerful? If that latter, is any gift required with the Binding, or is it just an illusion of a gift for the illusion of an outsider?
In my game, no, Shades works with the same limitations on conjuration(creation) and conjuration(summoning) spells as Shadow Conjuration.
Frankly, I'm a bit irked that Paizo didn't bother to take the time to clarify the rules on spells such as this. Explicitly stating the intent would have been a kindness, after the numerous, unresolved discussions that took place about this very spell under the 3.5 rules. I really don't care which way they would decide, but leaving it ambiguous was a cruelty.
How about it, Paizo employees? Care to help a guy out and take a stand?
| SolitonMan |
Particle_Man wrote:Unlike Shadow Magic and Demi-Shadow Magic, it seems that Shades can duplicate *any* lower level Conjuration spell on the Sorcerer's spell list. This would include Teleport and Planar Binding.
So first, is that right?
Second, would that result in Teleports that have an 80% chance of working?
Third, would that result in a Planar Binding on a real outsider that has an 80% chance of being effective, or a Planar Binding on a shadowy duplicate of an outsider that is 80% as powerful? If that latter, is any gift required with the Binding, or is it just an illusion of a gift for the illusion of an outsider?
In my game, no, Shades works with the same limitations on conjuration(creation) and conjuration(summoning) spells as Shadow Conjuration.
Frankly, I'm a bit irked that Paizo didn't bother to take the time to clarify the rules on spells such as this. Explicitly stating the intent would have been a kindness, after the numerous, unresolved discussions that took place about this very spell under the 3.5 rules. I really don't care which way they would decide, but leaving it ambiguous was a cruelty.
How about it, Paizo employees? Care to help a guy out and take a stand?
And there's even further room for abuse if you take the broadest interpretation of the spell text: "This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it mimics conjuration spells of 8th level or lower. The illusory conjurations created deal four-fifths (80%) damage to nonbelievers, and non-damaging effects are 80% likely to work against nonbelievers."
Mostly people focus on the lack of limitation to creation and summoning sub-schools, but note as well that there is no CLASS limitation! Whereas shadow conjuration explicitly limits itself to sorcerer/wizard spells, shades is just talking about conjuration spells. So, if that's the intent, then a wizard could use it to mimic conjuration(healing) spells from a cleric's list, and be doing mass cure critical wounds. And it would work 100% of the time, because the recipients would undoubtedly willingly fail their saves, and thus be subject to the full effect of the spell.
Yeah, this should have been cleared up.
| SolitonMan |
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
To clarify my earlier post: I'd like to see Shades re-written to something similar to one of the following options, depending on the designer's intentions:
(1) [Shades is Shadow Conjuration for sorcerer/wizard spells of 8th level or lower] - "This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it duplicates any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 8th level or lower. The illusory conjurations created deal four-fifths (80%) damage to nonbelievers, and non-damaging effects are 80% likely to work against nonbelievers."
(2) [Shades is Shadow Conjuration with subschool limitations removed] - "This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it duplicates any sorcerer or wizard conjuration spell of 8th level or lower. Unlike shadow conjuration, shades is not limited to the creation and summoning subschools of conjuration. Any sorcerer or wizard conjuration spell of 8th level or lower may be duplicated.
The illusory conjurations created deal four-fifths (80%) damage to nonbelievers, and non-damaging effects are 80% likely to work against nonbelievers."
(3) [Shades duplicates any conjuration of 8th level or lower] - "This spell functions like shadow conjuration with the following exceptions: the duplicated spells are not limited by subschool, the duplicated spells are not limited to conjuration spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list and may in fact duplicate ANY conjuration spell, and the level limit for duplicated spells is 8th.
The illusory conjurations created deal four-fifths (80%) damage to nonbelievers, and non-damaging effects are 80% likely to work against nonbelievers."
YMMV, but I believe that if shades were written with one of these options it would be clear what the designer intended.