I think I remember something about striking in melee with the butt of a firearm, albeit at a risk of damaging it, with a feat that removed that risk, but can't seem to find where. Anyone has any idea where those could be?
Also, what proficiency would be used for that, the general firearms proficiency? And would you threaten the adjacent square?
Thanks.
PS: Oh, and I know you guys at Paizo don't want to further focus on firearms in Pathfinder, but Alkenstar's a really cool place. Just sayin'.
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The "Catch off guard" feat would be what you want. Improvised weapon, treat it as a club (or great club).
Thanks. Yeah, I guess it would do. But I was sure I saw rules somewhere about using a firearm as a melee weapon. Ring a bell to anyone?
Might have been a 3.5 splatbook, a dragon mag or an AP, not sure anymore. Or I just might have dreamt that up, would'nt be the first time...
IMO, if you burned the feat to use a musket (or something along those technological lines), the ability to use a bayonet and the butt end in melee should go along with it. I know form personal experience that when I learned to use an M16, they damn sure taught me how to beat and stab with it too :)
IMO, if you burned the feat to use a musket (or something along those technological lines), the ability to use a bayonet and the butt end in melee should go along with it. I know form personal experience that when I learned to use an M16, they damn sure taught me how to beat and stab with it too :)
When I was sent to Bosnia during the late 90's, We were issued the Vietnam era A1's, and many had been refurbished, so the bayonets we were issued wouldn't fit some of the weapons. lol
we were also sent the wrong ammo for the m1911's. it's a wonder we didn't lose more men than what we did!
But honestly, I would agree in that if you were trained to fire the weapon, you'd probably also know how to use the rifle butt as a club, or the pistol butt to pistol whip someone.
If anything, you could say it was just a simple weapon.
Looking up some rules in my d20 past sourcebook, it says that pistol whip and rifle butt attacks are described in the d20 modern rpg, so looking there it shows the pistol whip and rifle butt are both simple weapons. pistol whip dealing 1d4 bludgeon damage, and rifle butt dealing 1d6 bludgeon damage, both threat range is a 20.
if you want to get creative, you could always build a knife or an axe into the handle of your pistol or rifle butt also.
Thanks! I guess I'll just work with it that way. :)
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I've always been skeptical about the use of firearms in melee in a high-fantasy system. I almost wonder if it shouldn't do damage much like the sap in 3.5. The sap did much more damage than an unarmed strike (excepting the monk), but it was considered nonlethal damage.
Now, I've never swung a firearm at someone, so I don't pretend to know what some of you guys that have posted here know, but, to me, it seems that the use of a firearm as a melee weapon is something that's feasible due to relatively low-to-unarmored enemies - armor being rendered mostly obsolete due to the massive amount of penetration the other way of attacking with a firearm causes. I don't know how useful it would be to swing a pistol at someone in full plate, and I don't think you'd be doing much damage to that someone.
Let me ask a question of the vets here: when they taught you to "beat" with your rifle, did they tell you to aim for stuff like face and neck, or was it just a "go to town" exercise?
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Muskets and Rifles that wold be used in this seting.
1) Primarly made of wood and steel. Not like a modren weapon plastic and steel.
2) Much heaver and takes much longer to reload. They made sure thay could be used as a club or with a bayonet like a spear.
3) House ruling by me and the other GM is as follows.
Bayonet = exotic weapon. Bayonets are a duble weapon. They can be used two handed as a spear or a club. When used two handed must declare what side thay are attacking with. This is more in line with how thay where used in RAW. Attaching the Bayonet is a move action.
Bayonet Damage 1D6 Pearcing / Bluging Critical 20 X 2
And yes I can't spell very well.
I run a steampunk campaign and I rule that if you're proficient with a gun you know how to use the bayonet and pistol whip/musket and blunderbuss butt. Bayonets function as a dagger on pistols, a shortspear on blunderbuss' and a spear on muskets (none of these have a range increment) and they take a move action to attach (although you can just leave it on once you've attached it). A pistol whip deals a d4 and a musket or blunderbuss butt deals a d6, all of these have crit of x2. I also have a system so you can add multiple barrels to flintlocks (making them similar to this) so you don't have to reload as much.
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I run a steampunk campaign and I rule that if you're proficient with a gun you know how to use the bayonet and pistol whip/musket and blunderbuss butt. Bayonets function as a dagger on pistols, a shortspear on blunderbuss' and a spear on muskets (none of these have a range increment) and they take a move action to attach (although you can just leave it on once you've attached it). A pistol whip deals a d4 and a musket or blunderbuss butt deals a d6, all of these have crit of x2. I also have a system so you can add multiple barrels to flintlocks (making them similar to this) so you don't have to reload as much.
can i play your game and have this
I run a steampunk campaign and I rule that if you're proficient with a gun you know how to use the bayonet and pistol whip/musket and blunderbuss butt. Bayonets function as a dagger on pistols, a shortspear on blunderbuss' and a spear on muskets (none of these have a range increment) and they take a move action to attach (although you can just leave it on once you've attached it). A pistol whip deals a d4 and a musket or blunderbuss butt deals a d6, all of these have crit of x2. I also have a system so you can add multiple barrels to flintlocks (making them similar to this) so you don't have to reload as much.can i play your game and have this
The guns in my game are limited to 6 barrels but other than that ya if you wanted your gun to look like that you could. Though I might have someone sunder it because they think it's an abomination :P
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I've always been skeptical about the use of firearms in melee in a high-fantasy system. I almost wonder if it shouldn't do damage much like the sap in 3.5. The sap did much more damage than an unarmed strike (excepting the monk), but it was considered nonlethal damage.
Now, I've never swung a firearm at someone, so I don't pretend to know what some of you guys that have posted here know, but, to me, it seems that the use of a firearm as a melee weapon is something that's feasible due to relatively low-to-unarmored enemies - armor being rendered mostly obsolete due to the massive amount of penetration the other way of attacking with a firearm causes. I don't know how useful it would be to swing a pistol at someone in full plate, and I don't think you'd be doing much damage to that someone.
Let me ask a question of the vets here: when they taught you to "beat" with your rifle, did they tell you to aim for stuff like face and neck, or was it just a "go to town" exercise?
We have fighters in ren-era plate mail using caveman era clubs :P
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We have fighters in ren-era plate mail using caveman era clubs :P
Look at the illustration in the core book for a club and tell me that wouldn't hurt someone in armor. :P Besides, who seriously uses a club, anyway? ;)
Now, I know that's just style, and a player can describe their club any way they wish. Personally, I'd be fine with the idea of a "free" club doing non-lethal damage and like a 1 gp club doing lethal damage or something, but I guess I'm pining for the days of older editions where stuff like that matters.
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We have fighters in ren-era plate mail using caveman era clubs :PLook at the illustration in the core book for a club and tell me that wouldn't hurt someone in armor. :P Besides, who seriously uses a club, anyway? ;)
Now, I know that's just style, and a player can describe their club any way they wish. Personally, I'd be fine with the idea of a "free" club doing non-lethal damage and like a 1 gp club doing lethal damage or something, but I guess I'm pining for the days of older editions where stuff like that matters.
I guess what I'm getting at, is that D&D is - and always has been - anachronistic as all hell. Those big suits of full plate fighters all want were historically developed after firearms. Crossbows were WMDs to knights, and yet in D&D they're these horrible piddly things that nobody uses. The game confuses the sling - there's a reason the ammunition was called bullets - for the slingshot ;p
I guess what I'm getting at, is that D&D is - and always has been - anachronistic as all hell. Those big suits of full plate fighters all want were historically developed after firearms. Crossbows were WMDs to knights, and yet in D&D they're these horrible piddly things that nobody uses. The game confuses the sling - there's a reason the ammunition was called bullets - for the slingshot ;pWe have fighters in ren-era plate mail using caveman era clubs :PLook at the illustration in the core book for a club and tell me that wouldn't hurt someone in armor. :P Besides, who seriously uses a club, anyway? ;)
Now, I know that's just style, and a player can describe their club any way they wish. Personally, I'd be fine with the idea of a "free" club doing non-lethal damage and like a 1 gp club doing lethal damage or something, but I guess I'm pining for the days of older editions where stuff like that matters.
back in the day you had a weapon type vs armor chart, where different weapons worked better or worse against certain types of armor.
back in the day you had a weapon type vs armor chart, where different weapons worked better or worse against certain types of armor.
i'm strongly considering bringing that table back in my next campaign, and thinking about how it would interact with the 'Armor as DR' optional rule. So it actually matters what weapon you use.
back in the day you had a weapon type vs armor chart, where different weapons worked better or worse against certain types of armor.i'm strongly considering bringing that table back in my next campaign, and thinking about how it would interact with the 'Armor as DR' optional rule. So it actually matters what weapon you use.
Only as long as you just fight things that wear armor. There are lots of monsters at all levels that don't.
Only as long as you just fight things that wear armor. There are lots of monsters at all levels that don't.
I thought that was a myth :O