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I ran a slot zero of this scenario last weekend at tier 3-4 for some of the GMs who volunteer at our local gameday. These are experienced players, but were not into running min-maxed PCs. Party composition was:
Human 4th level Bard
Human 3rd level Cleric
Human 2nd level Cavalier/1st level Ex-Paladin
Half Orc 1st level Summoner/1st level Wizard
Human 2nd level Sorcerer
They were on the light side of tier 3-4, but there wasn’t any question about what tier they’d be playing. I want to start off by saying that I am not complaining about the difficulty or suggesting any changes be made. The scenario ended with a TPK and their bodies were unrecoverable.
As a GM I am notorious for telling players that “You guys can handle this scenario” and “None of these fights get close to challenging” and believing it. This is followed by a bloodbath. I am going to try and stop making predictions about scenario outcomes.
For the benefit of GMs running this scenario, and for the therapeutic value of writing about it, I would like to explain how it all went down. If you haven’t played this scenario yet, please do not click on the spoiler tab. In fact, unless you have been through the entire “The Devil We Know” series, do not read any further. Major spoilers ahead:
The PCs never broke a sweat in Act One, soundly defeating the druids while taking scratches in return. Act Two was a different matter. At tier 1-2 the PCs would have faced two small earth elementals. The large earth elemental was a lot for them to chew on. The GM’s dice were hot and the players’ dice were fickle. After a drawn out fight where everyone felt like a yo-yo, the elemental was put down. One yo-yo didn’t come back up however. Sadly it would not be the cavalier’s first death in the scenario. The PCs also used up most of their daily spells and all of the cleric’s healing channels in this Act.
I said I would not complain about the difficulty of the scenario. I do have some complaints about the arrangement of this series. I am annoyed that there wasn’t a notation about the Crazed Painter’s attitude towards the PCs on the Chronicle from the Crypt of Fools (Part 3) since he appears in this scenario again and how the PCs dealt with him in Part 3 has an impact on Part 4. The GM is supposed to ask the players if they had been friendly toward the Painter in Part 3. Many players won’t even remember. Also, I am disappointed that there isn’t any kind of reward at the end for PCs who have played through the entire series with the same PC. In fact, the whole thing with Kafar and Nefti stealing the Bell of Obedience after the Society deliberately instructed the PCs not to remove it rankles the most.
The PCs scraped up their meager loot and ran back to the local temple of Iomadae (which was getting overwhelmed by injured and dying guardsmen). They barely had enough money to get the cavalier raised without selling off gear. A player did ask about resting but I believed that would end the scenario since everything was happening on a tight timeline. They had plenty of healing between them from wands of cure light wounds, but those are only good for healing between fights.
They continued to explore the prison and met with the painter, missing the only clue (the mural) they had that the bell was going to be stolen by Kafar & Nefti. I thought the trap door into the prison from the sewers was silly but I could ignore it. I still wonder how the derro were ever able to control a rust monster, a ghast and an earth elemental. These sorts of details might have made it into the scenario if there was a higher page count limit. Again, after the complaint about inserting the player handouts into the text portions of the PDF in Part 3, we again have to print off 3 additional pages to cut apart in Part 4. Grrr.
The last Act was the PCs’ undoing. Part of it was their hapless dice, part of it was the GM’s dice were hot, and part of it was the GM was using his monsters intelligently. If I had it to do again, I would have rolled separate initiatives for the three wounded derro at tier 3-4. I am in the habit of splitting up the opponents by stat block, but not individually. The PCs came into the grotto without attempting any stealth, so there was no surprise round. The derro won init with their +6 modifier and stacked 3 sound bursts on the clustered PCs. No one made all three saves. The sorcerer and the summoner’s eilodon went down after 14hp of damage. Although they were eventually stabilized they never got back into the fight. The derro took advantage of the stunned PCs by seeking cover and hiding. It went from bad to worse for the PCs. When they entered the grotto chamber the derro dropped darkness spells on them and began a sneak-attack party. Although each of the derro took a few hits, none of them were dropped. In the darkness the cavalier’s respectable AC was nerfed and the GM’s hot dice would not relent. All it would have taken was a decent roll or two and the outcome would have been different, but the derro held all the advantages and the PCs were cut down. I ruled the characters were not recoverable because the derro stole their gear, sacrificed their souls to Groetus and left the bodies to become ghouls.
Thanks Mr. Miles, I appreciate the time you take to read and run through all the scenarios. I look forward to your reviews and try to learn from them.
If you have any questions you want answered please let me know. You can do it here or e mail me privately at
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I've noticed there are a few areas where the adventure calls for Bardic Knowledge checks. Some have Knowledges beside them (in the opening text you can do "Knowledge (Local) or Bardic Knowledge") but in later areas, like B5 of the Swift Prison, it only calls for Bardic Knowledge. As Bardic Knowledge is no longer a separate thing in Pathfinder, but instead bonuses to the normal Knowledge skills, what should these be replaced with? Knowledge (local)? History? :S
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I ran the adventure this weekend too and had almost the same mix of players. My gmae is a home game so I had all the same players, although a couple of new characters.
The Elemental fight was brutal, but survivable. Some players thought the fight at the end was anticlimatic, but if they lost character to the elemental, chances are I doubt if they would have felt that way.
The Mites saluting the Andorian characters at the end is a nice touch! Not only does it tie the stories together again, but it makes the Andorians feel like they took steps that ensured their success.
I want to see those Mites to show up in another adventure. perhaps they have to struggle against Dark Creepers taking over that buried section of the city.
Over all a good series.
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I got to play in this one last night, and I absolutely loved it! The party I was in consisted of a 7th level Sorcerer, a 7th level Barbarian, an 8th level Ranger (archer) and a 2/5 fighter / cleric (me.)
As I was playing a character with very heavy armor and no Dex, the sewer water was actually a bit of a challenge for me. Instead of risking the Acrobatics check to cross the rocks, our Sorcerer summoned a horse into the river o' poo for me to cross.
Then came the toughest encounter of the scenario. That mfing ghast completely OWNED my cleric. I was hit right away (even with an AC of 30) and failed that massively high save.
Were that particular encounter toned down a bit, I don't think this scenario is too tough. However, this was the one that almost did us in. We were finally able to kill him, and eventually my paralysis waned.
The final battle was great, but as I recently gained my fifth level of cleric (of Asmodeus) and fireball, I was a bit disappointed that there weren't more mooks. I really wanted to blow the hell out of some derro. However, a well-placed fireball and a daylight spell kinda ruined the derros' day, and a loud "Huzzah" echoed throughout the cave.
When I saw the mural, I figured out that Nefti and Kafar were gonna steal the bell. We went back to the chapel, and our DM said the bell was intact and stared at us until we set back on the right track. I might have perhaps made it so the bell was already gone, and there was nothing that could be done about it.
Anyway, great adventure Larry! I had a blast!
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I got to play in this one last night, and I absolutely loved it! The party I was in consisted of a 7th level Sorcerer, a 7th level Barbarian, an 8th level Ranger (archer) and a 2/5 fighter / cleric (me.)
** spoiler omitted **
Anyway, great adventure Larry! I had a blast!
Kikai, FYI society rules state that a character can not play down in level, thus the 8th level ranger was illegal for this mod since the highest tier is 6-7
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I would assume that since the girl who showed up with the 8th level ranger had already played every other scenario in the room the GM of this game allowed her to go ahead and play instead of sending her packing. Probably better to be inclusive rather than exclusive, wouldn't you agree?
Home game yes, but not for PFS, she could have made a 1st level character to play. This is a rather hard rule for PFS play.
2 things
1) the raging ghast, yes morale bounus...good catch, my orignal turnover just included and advanced HD ghast, so I am unsure of what to say....
2) I think the BIGGEST rule of PFS is Play, Play, Play and have fun (Someone may want to correct me on this).
Anyway, glad you enjoyed yourselves, and good rules goggles on the morale bonus! I love the idea of summononing a horse to avoid the stench and filth of sewer water, I got a good chuckle from that, well done!
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I would assume that since the girl who showed up with the 8th level ranger had already played every other scenario in the room the GM of this game allowed her to go ahead and play instead of sending her packing. Probably better to be inclusive rather than exclusive, wouldn't you agree?
I'd be comfortable with this decision and would have done the same thing in GM's position.
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kikai is in the right. So long as the average party level is still appropriate for the tier, it's (generally) alright if someone (especially just one person) is a tiny bit above or below the tier with their own personal level. Especially if they showed up for the game with their character ready.
I believe Josh would say 'play play play!' trumps in this situation.
Slight issue with this one, actually kinda major. The Ghast which has barbarian levels gets the benefit of the rage. Rage is a MORAL BONUS, which undead are immune to, thus they should not get it.
I should have been much more clear about this in development--the ghast is a unique creature created by the grotto and does not have the immunity to morale effects.
As for the level 8 playing down to a Tier 1-7:
why didn't she make a new level 1?
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It sounds like they had three other level 7 players in tier 6-7. You mean she should have made a new level 1 to join them in tier 6-7 instead of using her level 8? o.O I suppose in my own experience with having players play down they were still in the 'overall' tier area even if they were above the 'played' tier. For example, I've run a 3-4 with all level 3-4 characters and maybe one level 5 PC that played (the adventure encompassing tier 1-7). I would have thought the same logic applied with this game. Does being outside the big tier change things?
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As for the level 8 playing down to a Tier 1-7:
why didn't she make a new level 1?
Both of the tables that were running tier 1-2 games had six players per table, and she had also played in both of those Scenarios before. It wound up being a judgement call on the part of all those running. Should she play a first level character through a scenario she had already played and increase a table to seven players, or play down one exp for a scenario she had never played and fill the fourth slot in a table that, prior to her arrival, only had three players? The three GMs agreed on what they thought the best decision would be and went with it.
As the (loose) organizer of the event, I let the GMs make their own decision without steering them one way or the other. It was, however, the same call I would have made.
As for the level 8 playing down to a Tier 1-7:
why didn't she make a new level 1?
Aren't players expected to play the same PC through multi-scenario series like TDWK? In this case, it sounds like she'd already played parts 1-3 with this PC.
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Aren't players expected to play the same PC through multi-scenario series like TDWK? In this case, it sounds like she'd already played parts 1-3 with this PC.As for the level 8 playing down to a Tier 1-7:
why didn't she make a new level 1?
Ayup, she sure had. At the end of TDWK 3, she had gotten the single xp that pushed her character up to 8.
I was only asking. :-)
Sounds like the GM made the right call for play play play purposes.
Yeah, that's a slight map error. There should be one more square to the south of each of the B9 stairs to indicate that you come down to B9 from B8 under the stairs from B7 down to B8. I hope that makes. It looks right now like those stairs come from nowhere in B9, but with a little 1 square 90 degree turn and the addition of one box to those stairs, it makes more sense.
Good catch!
Ahh okay. Well, noticing another thing. Minor Typo. There are two 'Player Handout 2'.
Another Typo (combat related)
** spoiler omitted **That's not what I see. Are you looking at her stat block on page 17? She has ...
Weapon Finesse
...listed as her feats.
On the commander, it says it's a 1d8/19-20.
That's an error. It should be 1d6--it was correct in the original turnover, too, but I must have changed it by accident.
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Ran this last week and the players had fun with it.
I had to talk up how big and heavy the bell was. The PLAYERS WANTED TO TAKE IT. So to keep the story in plot, the bell was 3ft tall and about 3-400 lbs. (luckily the group did not have a dwarf or a bag of holding.)
During the ghast fight, I had the ghast stay in the corners where he starts and attack as they came close. One PC Wizard who tried to rush past to help flank, got paralyzed on the AoO, then killed on the ghast's turn. (luckily the character had saved his gold and had enough to be raised.) The summoner, used up all his summons and lost his eidilon twice but they still won in the end. The Andorans wanted to follow the mites and help out.
Which brings me to my main question. Will there be a sequel to this with the characters recovering the bell? My players REALLY want closure.
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I have a question about area B9... The perception check DC 40 for the trap door down to the next area...
If My calculations are correct (A wisdom mod of +4, Class Skill +3, and maximum character level for pathfinder society play 12) you have a 19 perception score add to the max roll of 20 and you have a 39!!!
How are tier 1-2 suppose to make that?
You aren't supposed to make it. The "secret" door is open when the players find it. The door was not know to the guards prior due to the high DC when it is closed.
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I am getting ready to run this on Monday and have one question. It is a DC 17 Perception check to notice the ghast to the left of the entrance to the room he is in. Why wouldn't the ghast, assuming he was aware of the party, move to his spot and then attempt a stealth check while they were trying to open the door? At tier 6-7, his Stealth bonus is +16, I believe. Is it the stench that somehow lowers the DC of the check? Would it be wrong to have the ghast make a stealth check instead of relying on the static DC 17 Perception check?
It's best to always try to stick to the scenario as written, especially when it comes to tactics.
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Ran this one tonight for six players at tier 3-4. Nearly a TPK against the elemental. It didn't help that he used power attack after taking damage. 2d6+13 is a lot for level 2-4 PC's to handle. Only the 4th level bard made it out alive and that was only due to his uber-high AC against an AoO as he fled. Three players decided not to be raised, but two did. So only three players returned to continue the mod. They prepared better against the elemental and wiped him out before he could damage them the second time around. They were able to defeat the ghast, but ran out of time because of having to sell items and pool cash for the raise dead. This hosed the Andoran since both of his faction missions were in the last part of the scenario.
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The raging gast while it was made by the book, it was not logical or balanced. The base creature would have been made with a 40 point buy. Also while it makes since that rage is based off of Cha. Rage would not and should not boost Cha. The problem appeared to be two sets of stat boost when only one was needed.
Beside the problem with the raging gast for 3-4 tier. The scenrio was a lot of fun to run and my players had fun.
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Ran this last night in Tier 3-4, with a Fighter-4, Fighter-3, Cleric-4, Druid-2 (wolf animal comanion), and the NPC pre-gen Ezran (level 4) for the above-ground section only (they had no detect magic or arcane knowledge, and thus no way of actually identifying the
Hardest set of encounters this group has ever played (they've been playing together as a group since level 1). Warning - it is very easy to kill everyone at your table in Tier 3-4 without trying hard. I had to pull punches to prevent a TPK twice. First...
They healed up, and ran off to the local Temple where the dead fighter spent most of his prestige on a raise dead. Despite the scenario being on a timeline, if I hadn't let them rest they would have all been killed.
And then...
Again, total party kill if I hadn't have made the ghast play very dumb. He grabbed the (dying, paralyzed, sickened, infested with ghoul fever) dwaf cleric and carried him around, reducing him to single or no attacks as he tried to shove him into one of the cages. I started reducing the duration of the paralysis I "rolled" to let people get back into the fight. There was only one guy up by the end of it, plus the druid's wolf.
If the party didn't have a full cleric and a back-up healer, with wands of CLW for everyone, they wouldn't have survived either of these fights. There were some poor rolls, but nothing unexpected. And I'm a softy GM - I'll spread damage around if someone is teetering on the edge.
All of this as a warning: if you run this at tier 3-4, you will have to work to avoid killing PCs. Due to the high damage output of the monsters, you can go from decent shape to a TPK in only a couple of rounds.
However, still a fun scenario, it's nice to have to err on the side of awesome instead of making excuses for a cakewalk... thanks for a great series!
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I just ran this for a group of 6 players. It was played at 3-4 and was almost a TPK, despite the 3 higher level folks.
Inquisitor 6
Rogue 6
Monk 6
Wizard 4
Bard 2
Barbarian 1
APL: 5
So they make it inside the prison (Act 2) and mostly nothing happens. That is until they come across the Earth elemental in the prison yard. He does insane damage, but they manage to grease him. He sinks back into the earth while the rogue opens a door to a hallway and steps in. The elemental earthglides over there and pops up in front of him and grapples him. Next round, the rogue is down and the party is packing into this hall. He then proceeds to take out the monk. Afterwards, he then slams the barbarian (who is now doing the most damage to him) and drops him to 1 above is neg con. The barbarian fails the stabilization check and is dead dead. Needless to say the Inquisitor stops trying to be a party healer and manages to kill the earth elemental.
They talk to the painter (who some of the party is really happy to see again because they love him!) and make their way down below. The fight against the ghast is particularly brutual, but the monk is a half-elf (resistant to paralysis) and is high enough in his class to be immune to disease. The monk does drop from damage, but the party wizard is the luckiest SOB ever. He manages to use one of his school powers to dimension door behind the ghast and my dice start to fail. He rolls a (1,1,2 and 4,6,3) on all of his attacks (2 rounds worth) and just whiffs the wizard. The party takes the ghast down.
They go in to the Darklands and fight the derros with no problem. The wizard manages to cause a HUGE area to be difficult terrain, and the ranged inquisitor and rogue just pick them off as they come (the derros rolled suck initiative).
Out of all the lower tiered scenarios, this one was one of the hardest designed combat challenges for PCs I've ever run. I never imagined that at 3-4 there would have been a possible TPK. Had the bard and barbarian been 3 or 4 and the party decide to play up to 6-7, I think I would have definitely TPK'ed the table.
/The bard was immune from all damage because she made the GM mint julep cupcakes (or maybe because she never got into the fray). LOL :)
Hey Larry here (the author). While it seemed these combats were hard, I hope everyone had fun. I read a lot of threads earlier about things being a cake walk and easy for "optimized players". I wanted to give them a challenge, but maybe I went too far. Its funny, I thought the hardest encounter I ever wrote took place against the BBEG in Shadows over Absalom, but I hear that particular BBEG is a cake walk....
I appreciate this feedback as it greatly helps me to grow. Thanks for taking the time to do so, and I hope, most of all, everyone had fun. Glad to hear you liked the painter, he was a blast to invent!
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Hey Larry here (the author). While it seemed these combats were hard, I hope everyone had fun. I read a lot of threads earlier about things being a cake walk and easy for "optimized players". I wanted to give them a challenge, but maybe I went too far. Its funny, I thought the hardest encounter I ever wrote took place against the BBEG in Shadows over Absalom, but I hear that particular BBEG is a cake walk....
I appreciate this feedback as it greatly helps me to grow. Thanks for taking the time to do so, and I hope, most of all, everyone had fun. Glad to hear you liked the painter, he was a blast to invent!
That Earth Elemental is just particularly NASTY! I was sitting in shock because I didn't think he would be tearing up the party so much. I was happy they had low level characters with them, otherwise they would have taken on his bigger brother in 6-7 and definitely TPK'd. It was a lot of great fun though. My favorite low level multi-scenario arc ending for sure! And the ending seems like it will translate over nicely to setting the basis for a higher level scenario(s) come Season 3!
Back in the day I asked if I could continue the scenario on, or make up another arc involving the bell of obedience, but at that time the powers that be had no plans to do any more with this arc. Now that we have new powers that be, maybe I might ask them. However I did ask Mark about another multi scenario arc, but at the time he had no spots for it, with season 3 starting, who knows.... At any rate I love writing for Paizo!
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Holy necro, Batman!
I planned on running Rules of the Swift this Sunday but ... the game is going to be held at my home, and my table doesn't suit more than 4 players. They'd wish to play Tier 3-4 and ... right the moment I saw "Tier 3-4, large earth elemental" my jaw dropped. Without saying I knew that'd cause a huuuuuuge load of problems.
And as I ranted on Crypt of Fools, the male ghast with barbarian levels seems a little shrewd. Is that a ghoul with the advanced template and class levels? I noticed this combination gives +8 +8 +6 +6 +4 +2 to stats. R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S !
I'll give a good warning to the players and ask if they wish to play this or do I select some other scenario...
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They'd wish to play Tier 3-4 and ... right the moment I saw "Tier 3-4, large earth elemental" my jaw dropped. Without saying I knew that'd cause a huuuuuuge load of problems.
I almost GM'ed my very first TPK on this encounter. The party wasn't particularly well built for this encounter either (fighter focused on trip, paladin, bard, and summoner). The problem that I had with the encounter as a TPK is that it just seemed totally random to the players, and wouldn't have been a heroic death at all.
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They'd wish to play Tier 3-4 and ... right the moment I saw "Tier 3-4, large earth elemental" my jaw dropped. Without saying I knew that'd cause a huuuuuuge load of problems.I almost GM'ed my very first TPK on this encounter. The party wasn't particularly well built for this encounter either (fighter focused on trip, paladin, bard, and summoner). The problem that I had with the encounter as a TPK is that it just seemed totally random to the players, and wouldn't have been a heroic death at all.
My first TPK came from this series' previous scenario, Crypt of Fools. I begin to understand why Larcifer's avatar is a laughing devil...
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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The tier 3-4 in this adventure is just ridiculous. Our magus almost got one shot'd (ok, 2 slams 1 round) by the elemental, but managed to survive somehow. But none of the pc's could make the ghast's insane saves. Thankfully the witch finished her paralyzation and was able to run away to get help.
It looked like it could have been a good ending to a good series, but Josh had to mess with it. (see above, Larcifer submitted an advanced ghast originally, josh made it the barbarian and made the rulings that it could benefit from raging.)
The 3rd scenario in the series was my favorite until First steps 2 came out. But I'm sorry to say I'll never run this or at least I won't run the 4th in the series, unless they're over the 3-4 tier no play zone.
When I played it, we managed to survive the earth elemental through some GM pity (it could have crushed the more squishy characters easily, if it had focused on them). I don't remember too much trouble with the ghast, though.