Just a heads up to those DM's an players trying out the Summoner before the APG comes out:
After plenty of gameplay and some number crunching, it came to my DM's and parties conclusion that the Large evolution for Eidolon's was over the top.
+8 strength is just a little too much of a boost. The compromise for balance thought up by my DM was to replace the bonuses from the Large Evolution with the Giant rebuild rules.
It really came to a head when my character's Eidolon was hypnotized (Rolled a 1 >.<) and ended up almost one-shotting my character -- and that was after the nerf!
So just a heads up for DM's to closely scrutinize Eidolon power balance -- it can get out of hand very quickly.
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Just a heads up to those DM's an players trying out the Summoner before the APG comes out:
After plenty of gameplay and some number crunching, it came to my DM's and parties conclusion that the Large evolution for Eidolon's was over the top.
+8 strength is just a little too much of a boost. The compromise for balance thought up by my DM was to replace the bonuses from the Large Evolution with the Giant rebuild rules.
It really came to a head when my character's Eidolon was hypnotized (Rolled a 1 >.<) and ended up almost one-shotting my character -- and that was after the nerf!
So just a heads up for DM's to closely scrutinize Eidolon power balance -- it can get out of hand very quickly.
5' corridors are the bane of your existence, I take it?
(I haven't tested the summoner yet so I can't really comment)
Ya know at 6th level you have 8 evo points 5 which you spent on large, ya could have a str of 26 if ya started at biped
However a druid's animal companion at level 6 say an ape would be 23 so your 3 points higher
But ya know the druid is getting 3rd level spells and wild shape while the summoner is getting 2nd level spells
I don't see overpowered yet
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Just a heads up to those DM's an players trying out the Summoner before the APG comes out:
Like seekerofshadowlight, I just don't see it as being overpowered. Compared to some of the druid animal companions, it's only marginally more powerful, and considering all of the other stuff the Druid has, it's not worth it.
Compared to the damage output of a fighter, it's not overpowered. Or to a paladin while smiting, or a ranger against a favored enemy...you get the idea.
It's good, to be sure, but can also be countered really easily. Nine dungeons out of ten your Large eidolon is going to have issues getting down 5' passages, it'll draw attention to itself frequently, et cetera.
I have a Player who is playing a Summoner. I have seen the 'problems'.
First of all, the Summoner is combat orientated. Anything out of combat is hard for it, unless he is willing to spend evolution points on skills.
Some solution for a kick ass Eidolon:
Use the Spell Dismissal! Very nice, by by Eidolon. See you tomorrow. Make sure you have 1 or 2 combats before the summoner can summon his Eidolong back.
Dominate is also very nice. If you feel that the Eidolon Ruined the combat before, Beat the summoner with is own Eidolon. Then the rest of the party.
As said before, make sure you use dungeons where large don't work. Then you see the power of Druids who can make the animal medium again.
I can see your problem however because a summoner who knows ho to play tactics and build his Eidolon is pretty awsome, but when he can't handle that, he would problaly not be able to handle a Nasty Druid, Ranger and Wizard.
I realized the Paladin might be a tad OP when a Glabrezu the PC's were fighting tore the Summoners Eidolon up. The Paladin practicaly took both it and the other Glabrezu on and out on his own (with the Oracle who did very little damage). I believe the Eidolon was actually large to boot. Needless to say, OP is relative and there's always something meaner and nastier the DM can throw at the PC's (I find Elementals and Dire beasts are nice foes to toss at Paladins for example).
Ya know at 6th level you have 8 evo points 5 which you spent on large, ya could have a str of 26 if ya started at biped
However a druid's animal companion at level 6 say an ape would be 23 so your 3 points higher
But ya know the druid is getting 3rd level spells and wild shape while the summoner is getting 2nd level spells
I don't see overpowered yet
I have to totally agree with this. During the playtest a lot of complaints boiled down to the Edolion being way more uber than the Druid's animal comapanion.
What people missed out was the fact that the Summoner and Edolion come as a single package and comparing the wrong halves. Comparing the Summoner with the Druid' Animal companion and the Edolion against the Wildshaping Druid gives a better balanced comparison.
James has stated that the "vision" for the class was the Edolion to be the PC and the Summoner the Animal Companion. It took me a while to get my head around this way of thinking but it makes more sense from this perspective.
Ya know at 6th level you have 8 evo points 5 which you spent on large, ya could have a str of 26 if ya started at biped
However a druid's animal companion at level 6 say an ape would be 23 so your 3 points higher
But ya know the druid is getting 3rd level spells and wild shape while the summoner is getting 2nd level spells
I don't see overpowered yet
I have to totally agree with this. During the playtest a lot of complaints boiled down to the Edolion being way more uber than the Druid's animal comapanion.
What people missed out was the fact that the Summoner and Edolion come as a single package and comparing the wrong halves. Comparing the Summoner with the Druid' Animal companion and the Edolion against the Wildshaping Druid gives a better balanced comparison.
James has stated that the "vision" for the class was the Edolion to be the PC and the Summoner the Animal Companion. It took me a while to get my head around this way of thinking but it makes more sense from this perspective.
I've done alot of playtesting with the summoner, and while the large evolution looks nasty on paper, in practice it is far less of a problem. And it is very well balanced against the druid, which is the fairest means of comparison.
The eidolon is stronger then the animal companion (though not not much better then the big cats) but the summoner is far less capable then a druid of equal level.
And while +8 is alot, you pay through the nose in evolution points to get it. That +8 strength costs you alot of other things you could have potentially gotten. The opportunity cost is high.
I've done alot of playtesting with the summoner, and while the large evolution looks nasty on paper, in practice it is far less of a problem. And it is very well balanced against the druid, which is the fairest means of comparison.The eidolon is stronger then the animal companion (though not not much better then the big cats) but the summoner is far less capable then a druid of equal level.
And while +8 is alot, you pay through the nose in evolution points to get it. That +8 strength costs you alot of other things you could have potentially gotten. The opportunity cost is high.
The best way to compare is Eidolon v Wildshaping Druid and Summoner v Animal Companion.
Just a heads up to those DM's an players trying out the Summoner before the APG comes out:Like seekerofshadowlight, I just don't see it as being overpowered. Compared to some of the druid animal companions, it's only marginally more powerful, and considering all of the other stuff the Druid has, it's not worth it.
Compared to the damage output of a fighter, it's not overpowered. Or to a paladin while smiting, or a ranger against a favored enemy...you get the idea.
Comparing the all the time damage of a class or class ability (which the eidolon is) to the conditional abilities of another class - like Ranger's Favored Enemy or Paladin's even more limited Smite - is exceedingly disingenuous. It makes the all-the-time ability class look weaker than it truly is and makes the conditional ability classes look much more powerful than they actually are - which hurts them significantly as the probably won't be able to be identified in order to fix them.
Alright, let's look at it like this:
At level 7, and Eidolon has 10 evo points.
Biped starting strength is 16
16
+3 just from being an Eidolon
+8 from Large Evo
That's 27 alone, not counting any other evolutions or items.
Now with a Large Greataxe, that Eidolon would be doing 3d6 + 12 on each hit, and it gets two attacks on a full attack, still not including any items or other items or evolutions (though you'd really need to give him martial weapon prof. as a feat or an evolution), nor ability increases.
Throw in a +2 str item, another +2 str evolution and you've got a killing machine.
This all includes a faster str/dex and natural armor progression than a Druid Animal Companion. A comparable Ape would start with str 13, get +8 at level 4, +2 from progression, for a 22.
Alright, let's look at it like this:
At level 7, and Eidolon has 10 evo points.
Biped starting strength is 16
16
+3 just from being an Eidolon
+8 from Large EvoThat's 27 alone, not counting any other evolutions or items.
Now with a Large Greataxe, that Eidolon would be doing 3d6 + 12 on each hit, and it gets two attacks on a full attack, still not including any items or other items or evolutions (though you'd really need to give him martial weapon prof. as a feat or an evolution), nor ability increases.
Throw in a +2 str item, another +2 str evolution and you've got a killing machine.
This all includes a faster str/dex and natural armor progression than a Druid Animal Companion. A comparable Ape would start with str 13, get +8 at level 4, +2 from progression, for a 22.
Wrong comparison, The druids animal companion is the lesser part of the pair, the eidolon is the stronger part of the pair in the case of the summoner. Compare the eidolon to a wildshapping druid.
Druid Starting strength of 19 (17+2 racial) +1 stre at level 4 that 20. When wild shaped into a large animal, thats 24 str and he can easily have items that dont eliminate slots on his Animal companion.
So In tiger form, 2 claws at 1d8+7 (with grab) and a bite 2d6+7. Not to mention if it charges it gets pounce for an additional 2 rakes. at 1d6+7 each.
So 3 attacks for a total of 2d8+2d6+21 or when charging 4d8+2d6+35.
Alright, let's look at it like this:
At level 7, and Eidolon has 10 evo points.
Biped starting strength is 16
16
+3 just from being an Eidolon
+8 from Large EvoThat's 27 alone, not counting any other evolutions or items.
Now with a Large Greataxe, that Eidolon would be doing 3d6 + 12 on each hit, and it gets two attacks on a full attack, still not including any items or other items or evolutions (though you'd really need to give him martial weapon prof. as a feat or an evolution), nor ability increases.
Throw in a +2 str item, another +2 str evolution and you've got a killing machine.
This all includes a faster str/dex and natural armor progression than a Druid Animal Companion. A comparable Ape would start with str 13, get +8 at level 4, +2 from progression, for a 22.
You can't look at the Eidolon as a single entity. To draw any real comparisons you need to compare the wildshaping druid and animal companion with both Eidolon and Summoner. Not the Eidolon in isolation against the Druid animal companion.
A wildshaped Druid built for damage will pound an Eidolon into the ground. A Summoner can hold his own against the same Druid's Animal Companion. The two classes are fairly balanced in that respect.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Kolokotroni :)
Its like saying the Summoner is OP against the Paladin because the Eidolon can pound the Paladin's mount.
Maybe I am over looking something bout how you getting 2 attacks with a great ax at +12 at level 7?
A weapon is not a natural attack so you would not gain 2. At 7 your BAB is +7/+2 not +7/+7
Maybe I am over looking something bout how you getting 2 attacks with a great ax at +12 at level 7?
A weapon is not a natural attack so you would not gain 2. At 7 your BAB is +7/+2 not +7/+7
BAB also has nothing to do with damage, which the +12 was. Which is why it was after a 3d6.
sorry missed that, But we know the Eidolon is a little more powerful then the Animal companion, while the summer is much weaker then the druid. And the Animal companion can not be dismissed by a spell.
I am just not seeing over powered here. People are looking at the Eidolon in a vacuum which is a flawed way to do it. The summoner is neat but no where near the druids power level.
This whole bloody game is assessed in a vacuum, or in "best possible conditions." See my previous post in the thread.
This whole bloody game is assessed in a vacuum, or in "best possible conditions." See my previous post in the thread.
The only thing you can learn by testing something in a vacuum is that they all fall at the same rate.
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It isn't really overpowered, it's been tested before. A fighter can beat it at raw damage hands-down, and druids could probably beat it when you combine wildshape, natural spell and their animal companion.
And, lest you forget, a fighter's raw powers from feats can never be dispelled. A dismissal sends the eidolon packing for-was it a whole day or something? I have to reread it. In that case, that doesn't take them out for a while, that takes them out for almost a whole session. If they can call it back the next round, you're still spending you turn with 3/4ths less power (and you're squishier than normal without meat shield #1).
I think there are waaaay more flaws to the eidolon that an intelligent enemy can exploit than pluses.
I think you identified the exact moment you failed to research, sir. I'd watch out for that foot and mouth disease in the future, were I you.
This whole bloody game is assessed in a vacuum, or in "best possible conditions." See my previous post in the thread.
Assessing in a vacuum does not mean taking two specific class abilities and comparing them to say whether a whole class needs work or not.
It'd be like saying the Summoner is weak because his spellcasting is so much weaker compared to any full caster. It's simply not taking into account the whole class.
Test the whole class in a vacuum, yes. Grab the Eidolon and compare it to a Paladin's Mount or Druid/Ranger's Animal Companion and crying foul is simply bad math. It's just not equivocal, and there's no way to make it so.
This whole bloody game is assessed in a vacuum, or in "best possible conditions." See my previous post in the thread.The only thing you can learn by testing something in a vacuum is that they all fall at the same rate.
That and that dwarves look funny when they try to breathe in the Great Nought!
That and that dwarves look funny when they try to breathe in the Great Nought!This whole bloody game is assessed in a vacuum, or in "best possible conditions." See my previous post in the thread.The only thing you can learn by testing something in a vacuum is that they all fall at the same rate.
Yes but my experiments show that they burst nicely.
Better than Gnomes...
1. Although Eidolon's can probably be very strong they are the main feature of the class.
2. Although the Spell Dismissal can be used it is not necessarily a terribly elegant way to handle the situation. (Although I think a summoner should encounter it once his characters lifetime probably). It is not like every caster has the spell prepared, and why would they? Now is it is a diviner who has been scrying on the players..... that is another thing..... ;-). (Also known as: Use intelligent enemies intelligently..... dominate the Barbarian, Dismiss the Eidolon, etc)
One minor comment though: The "Large" eidolon issues arent a big issue if the small areas are only smaller for a short while. Summoners can also use "Reduce Person" on their Eidolons..... and of course you can always squeeze.
However, if it is really overpowering, it is of course good to limits its use once in a while, and squeezing penalties are still not Nice :-)
One minor comment though: The "Large" eidolon issues arent a big issue if the small areas are only smaller for a short while. Summoners can also use "Reduce Person" on their Eidolons..... and of course you can always squeeze.
Are eidolon's humanoids?
*edit* bipedal =/= humanoid.
One minor comment though: The "Large" eidolon issues arent a big issue if the small areas are only smaller for a short while. Summoners can also use "Reduce Person" on their Eidolons..... and of course you can always squeeze.
Are eidolon's humanoids?
*edit* bipedal =/= humanoid.
Summoners can cast such spells on their Eidolon, regardless of type.
really? where's that mentioned?
really? where's that mentioned?
d20PFSRD/pg 34 of Advanced Playtest
Share Spells (Ex) The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
Cool. I sit corrected.
Cool. I sit corrected.
Note it just says Summoner so spells cast by "friendly units" will have the usual restrictions. Nor would wands/scrolls of spells cast by the Summoner not on his spell list be effective.