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hi guys. i made a dwarf rouge and i want to concentrate on opening locks and fighting, but not on sneaking. firstly dose heavy armor affect my disable device check? also after i have taken the rouge at level 1 for the disable device class skill is there any point taking rouge further? thanks
ACPs affect all dex based checks, so yes it would.
The benefit of continuing on with rogue is that, at certain intervals (i forget how often) you get bonuses to your DD, perception checks to notice traps, and reflex saves and AC vs. traps.
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yes, a Rogue can be a decent melee combatant.
You will lack the high ac of a dedicated sword-swinger like a Fighter or Paladin (mostly due to no Armor Training and no Heavy Armor Proficiency) but will have other defenses. Namely, you Touch AC and Reflex Save will be higher, not to mention Improved Uncanny Dodge and Evasion (later, Improved Evasion)
Your damage will come from Sneak Attack, mostly, with some weapon damage thrown in there, almost as an afterthought. I would not "dump" strength, however, especially if you intend to be a primarily fighting Rogue. Elemental damage weapons (Flaming, Shock, etc) will help, as every additional d6 of damage does, and the Bleeding Attack Rogue Talent will yield damage over time every time you sneak attack something.
Other than that, the general "Adventurer's Tips" apply. Get the best armor you can afford (Chain Shirt +X, eventually, probably Mithril), and spend your money / treasure selections on things that will help that out. Rings of Protection, Amulets of Natural Armor, Belt of Dex, these are all great items for a Rogue.
Of course, don't neglect your Trapfinding/Disarming role, either. Eyes of the Eagle, Goggles of Minute Seeing, and Headbands of Int will help see and disarm traps. At lower levels, Elixirs of Vision and simple Cat's Grace/Fox's Cunning spells will carry the trick, also.
Finally, for feats, consider Dodge, Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Defense (if going TWF in general), and Toughness. To go with your Dwarven Con and Toughness, Favored Class for HP will yield basically 3 HP/HD for "free."
-t
hi guys. i made a dwarf rouge and i want to concentrate on opening locks and fighting, but not on sneaking. firstly dose heavy armor affect my disable device check? also after i have taken the rouge at level 1 for the disable device class skill is there any point taking rouge further? thanks
So you're basically thinking of a Dwarf Rogue/Fighter, with just enough Rogue to cover the basics of handling traps. Nice idea!
Armor check penalty does affect Disable Device, but since it used to be an Int-based skill, you might be able to convince your DM to allow a trait, rogue talent, or feat that would allow you to change that.
2nd level rogue offers Evasion, which is only useful in light armor. However it's also a base attack bonus, a reflex save, d8 (instead of d10) hp, and a rogue talent that you could trade in for a bonus combat feat if you wanted.
My suggestion - start with Fighter1/Rogue1. Either order has benefits: Fighter first and you could be a fighter pretending to be a rogue/trapfinder and eventually learn enough to be a rogue. You'd definitely want toughness to handle all the traps you'd set off. After that, add fighter until you feel you really need a few more skill points. After all, for traps it's best to have disable device and perception high, and Acrobatics would be a great one to keep high too, especially since you can tumble in heavy armor (go go dwarf), as long as you keep within your light load.
I wouldn't put more than 4 levels total into Rogue (to avoid losing an extra base attack bonus), but sprinkling one every 3-4 fighter levels would keep things interesting for you.
Enjoy!
I had made a 3.5 dwarven rogue/fighter with the basic ideas as the OC. He was an adventurer/treasure hunter/gambler. He wore heavy armor (and even had a tower shield he would pull out at times), and his skills were focused on open lock/disable, spot/listen/search, appraise, and the social skills of bluff/diplomacy/gather info/intimidate.
This worked a little easier in 3.5 because Disable Device was an Int skill, and Open Lock was a Dex skill but carried no armor check penalty. So wearing the heavy armor didn't hinder his ability to deal with traps or locks.
The important feats I gave him were Imp Feint, Combat Expertise, Imp Trip, Power Attack. This also worked better in 3.5 due to the extra free attack with Imp Trip; in PF you'd need Greater Trip and Combat Reflexes to make the most of tripping, and without a high dex it becomes less useful for getting attacks after tripping. My dwarf would use either a flail as a one hand weapon or a guisarme as a two-handed reach weapon. He'd generally try to avoid toe-to-toe melee, but he would pull out a tower shield if need be to keep his AC up to let the tougher party members get flanks and what not. (Also, because the mechanics for trip were different in 3.5, it was still easy to trip someone while not having a great attack rating, since you only needed to make a touch attack to initiate the attempt and then it was a Str check to trip someone.)
So to do this in PF you have a couple obstacles. One is the ACP applying to disable device. Fortunately, fighter levels help to overcome this with the armor training ability. The armor expert trait helps as well. Eventually you would want mithral armor; not so much for the boost to ac from dex, but for the reduced ACP. Mithral Full Plate has an ACP of -3, so it wouldn't take much to negate that completely. (Fighter 7 with Armor Expert trait.)
Doing combat maneuvers with a rogue would be difficult in PF regardless, due to the lower BAB. So thats probably not really an option here. For combat effectiveness, I'm not sure what would work best for the dwarven/fighter rogue. Perhaps just going for straight damage, or maybe as a striker with Spring Attack/Vital Strike, although speed will be an issue on that account.
One big benefit in PF though is how the skills work. Since you don't have to 'cross-class' skills anymore, your fighter levels are just as good as rogue levels for upping important skills, although the rogue gets a lot more skill points each level. (In 3.5 the fighter levels sunk the skills, as all the skills would cost 2 skill points for the most part.) So it won't take a lot of rogue levels to keep the important skills maxed. Plus, the combination of many 3.5 skills (spot/listen/search into perception) makes it easier too.
So probably go more fighter than rogue. Maybe 4 to 8 levels of rogue over 20 levels just to get the basics without dropping too much BAB. That would also allow decent use of CMBs if wanted. Barbarian or Ranger levels could be mixed in too without hurting the character, so long as the concept fit, and they get more skill points than the fighter does. (Barbarian for the speed boost, Ranger for favored enemy and favored terrain (underground) and saving throw boost.) For Rogue talents I'd go with Trap Spotter and probably the minor/major magics. (If you put ranks in Spellcraft and take detect magic you can even identify magic items, though you'd never be as good at it as a primary caster.) Expeditious Retreat as the major magic for a striker type would be a solid choice.
For feat choices, probably best would be using Imp Feint and then maxing weapon specific feats (WF, WSpec, Imp Crit, etc.). Combined with the weapon training from the fighter levels this would keep attack and damage up pretty good. Another possibility would be to pick up 2 to 6 levels of Ranger for Two Weapon Fighting/Imp TWF and doing the shield slam trick (Imp Shield Bash, Shield Slam, Imp Bull Rush, etc). This would give more attacks, thus more opportunities for sneak attack, and also some tactical options with the free bull rushes. And the fighter levels would give enough feats to pull it off properly, possibly supplemented with the Combat Trick rogue talent. (Note that the TWFing gained from the Ranger levels would not work in heavy armor, so either would have to use a breastplate or mithral full plate.)
That sounds like a really cool character!
I would recommend skipping heavy armor. If you go for the mithral breastplate you only have a -1 ACP, and you still get a +6 AC (full is +9) The big benefit is that you still get evasion, and you don't even need a fighter level. Elven Chain is also a good option for you.
Consider levels in barbarian as well. You get more skills, more HP, a very nice speed bonus, the rage ability, and you can stack uncanny dodge with your rogue levels.
If you go with fighter, consider a tower shield. +4 to AC, and you can get total cover. When it comes time to pick a lock or whatever, take the shield off, and the ACP is gone. Tower shield + Dwarven waraxe sneak attacks= good times.
thanks for the help everyone. i think i will give him heavy armor and just max out skills in perception, disable device, acrobatic and swim. im not sure how many rouge levels to give him though. he only realy needs one but that seems a bit weird. im going to put all my normal feats into skill focus / deft hands to boost perception and disable device and fighter feats into weapon focus / specialisation
That seems quite doable.
I'd note that normally a character can't tumble in medium or heavy armor, but a dwarf character can since their speed is not reduced by armor.
Fergie makes some good points regarding armor usage. Its a tradeoff though, wear the heavy armor if you prefer stronger AC, wear the medium armor if you prefer the better skills. Aside from Disable Device, your other skills affected by armor aren't quite as important. But evasion with the Mithral Breastplate is a nice benefit too. If I took enough fighter levels to reduce the ACP sufficiently by way of the fighter's Armor Training ability, I'd probably go with the heavier armors.
Keeping a shield handy is a good idea, even if you rarely use it. Its nice to be able to boost your AC when needed. And I think of this type of character as being the type who is ready for anything (my dwarf even carried a Portable Battering Ram!).
Generally keep in mind that rogue levels can be taken in 4s without affecting your BAB any futher. The rogue doesn't get an increase to BAB at levels 1, 5, 9, and every four levels thereafter. So those are good levels to keep in mind when deciding what class levels to take. For example, if you take 5 levels of rogue, you know that you can take up to another 3 more rogue levels without affecting your BAB.
I'd definitely want at least 4 lvls of rogue to get the second rogue talent and more importantly uncanny dodge, as that helps avoid sneak attacks from hidden attackers.
I think thats an excellent idea using your feats to boost Disable Device and Perception, as that will help to offset the ACP to Disable device. I'd also suggest maybe squeezing in Iron Will and maybe Greater Iron Will to help offset your poor Will save.
Don't overlook Improved Feint if you have a decent sneak attack. With a high bluff its a good way to get the sneak attack off.
For skills, I'd keep Disable Device and Perception maxed. I'd also keep Bluff and Diplomacy maxed too. If you have the skill points, I'd try to keep Use Magic Device maxed too (and maybe take Skill Focus with it!), as it is a very useful skill. Other good skills to have would be appraise, sense motive, survival, and knowledge (dungeoneering). Rogue gets all the social skills as class skills, so its good to be competent in those.
For abilities, I'd go Str highest, followed by Int, then Con Wis and Char, and Dex as the dump stat. Thats after racial modifiers.
Like I said, I think of this type of guy as the one whose ready for anything--he's always got the right item handy, he knows where to find the best places to eat, he can get by in the wilderness on his own, and he can handle himself in a fight. The dwarf rogue/fighter (with possibly some Ranger mixed in) can do all this quite well.
Currently playing a Dwarven Rogue in Second Darkness and he kick's Drow A$$. Most assuredly an undersung race/class combo. All I can say is a Dwarven War Axe sneak attack really hurts.
Enjoy what ever you play, and dont look to far ahead when developing your PC instead react to the environment the DM creates. My rogue took a few level of the Liberator PrC from the SDAP players guide and has had a lot of fun working that PrC into his persona.
Peace!
I think a regular build of rogue is a fine Melee combatant, thanks to Sneak attack and TWF, you don't even need to be particularly sneaky, you just need an ally to flank enemies with so you can make sneak attacks as much as you like.
good point. the idea behind him is he is more like a military engineer than a rouge. he is good at getting through obsticals by any means. he can pick locks, build bridges, use blast charges (if there are explosives in PF. i presume so but i havnt read it all yet. is there any way i can implement this in game? i meen can i use 'craft item' feats to help him make bridges out of materials he has lying around? i like the battering ram idea too but i imagine him as quite frail and unable too look after himself in the wilderness. he excells in urban / underground enviroments but i dont know if ranger would be a good way to go.
Probably Craft (alchemy) is the way to go for making explosives. Is there anything in the Adventurer's Armory that would fall along those lines? I haven't seen that book yet, but there might be something in there.
Ranger doesn't necessarily have to be a wilderness type. Just take favored enemy for a civilized type (e.g. human) and favored terrain for underground or urban. The big benefit to Ranger for your type of build is the extra skill points over a fighter and the boost to Reflex saves. So its a good way to keep your skills up without losing any BAB. That depends on how many rogue levels you have though. If you have say 4 rogue levels, taking another rogue level for more skill points would cost you one point of BAB (but also give +1d6 sneak attack). But if you took a level of Ranger instead of 5th level rogue you would get 2 less skill points than the rogue but would get a +1 BAB, and a +2 to Fort and Reflex saves. So its really a question of how important BAB is to you; if its very important, than some ranger levels can keep your skills higher without losing any BAB; if its not quite as important, than rogue levels will give you the skills and the extra sneak attack.
... Elven Chain is also a good option for you.
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A DWARF in Elven Chain? That's perverted! :D