Looking for some feedback on the Bard-like minion class I created.
Link: The Puppeteer
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Looking for some feedback on the Bard-like minion class I created.
Link: The Puppeteer
Love the flavor of the class! It seems like you put a lot of thought and work into this. The only thing that seems a bit overpowered to me is the number of cores. Eventually the puppetmaster would have 12 additional puppets in play, each with a 22 strength (with the right puppet knacks), and they have an unlimited duration. Given that they are constructs, they do not eat, sleep, etc. so right from the start the party never has to set a watch and eventually (hell even by 8th level), the puppetmaster has a ridiculous entourage of bodyguards. Maybe limit this by having a set duration and having a number of cores equal to 1+cha at first, and increase to 2+cha at 4th, etc.
Given that they are constructs, they do not eat, sleep, etc. so right from the start the party never has to set a watch
This I really enjoy about the class, and this is why they don't have Alarm on their spell list. = )
...and eventually (hell even by 8th level), the puppetmaster has a ridiculous entourage of bodyguards.
This I can see being of more concern. I originally wanted to outright destroy the Marionette with Sacrificial Doll, but I figured that if the thing had a ton of hitpoints left after the hit that wouldn't be fair to the player. I also wondered if they would really want to keep their Marionettes close to them when they could be fighting or "aid another" another player...
Maybe a multi-faceted approach. Put a limit of 2 marionettes can be Deployed at once with any Deployment action, and Deployment is a swift action (Standard to throw one)? I'll look into a way to have the Marionettes progress in hit dice other than tying it to the number of Deployable minions. I really wanted to avoid a chart for that too...
I'm kind of partial to the unlimited duration. I was going to introduce this class with a vigilante who gives Marionettes as dolls to children with Cut the Strings orders to protect them.
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Given that they are constructs, they do not eat, sleep, etc. so right from the start the party never has to set a watchThis I really enjoy about the class, and this is why they don't have Alarm on their spell list. = )
...and eventually (hell even by 8th level), the puppetmaster has a ridiculous entourage of bodyguards.This I can see being of more concern. I originally wanted to outright destroy the Marionette with Sacrificial Doll, but I figured that if the thing had a ton of hitpoints left after the hit that wouldn't be fair to the player. I also wondered if they would really want to keep their Marionettes close to them when they could be fighting or "aid another" another player...
Maybe a multi-faceted approach. Put a limit of 2 marionettes can be Deployed at once with any Deployment action, and Deployment is a swift action (Standard to throw one)? I'll look into a way to have the Marionettes progress in hit dice other than tying it to the number of Deployable minions. I really wanted to avoid a chart for that too...
I'm kind of partial to the unlimited duration. I was going to introduce this class with a vigilante who gives Marionettes as dolls to children with Cut the Strings orders to protect them.
RE: Cut the Strings-wouldn't the range still apply?
Also, if a puppetmaster cuts the strings, would that still count toward the number of cores they have in play or would they get another one the next day? It seems that with a static number of cores and permanent duration, every time cut the strings is used, it would decrease the number of available marionettes (at least until the tasks are finished).
I think you're going to be stuck with a chart. Every other companion class (which is what this is essentially) has an additional chart for those companions.
i also agree that the number of hit dice for the dolls seem a little high but beyond that i love this idea a lot, it seems really cool and i would love to see more knacks for them.
RE: Cut the Strings-wouldn't the range still apply?
Also, if a puppetmaster cuts the strings, would that still count toward the number of cores they have in play or would they get another one the next day? It seems that with a static number of cores and permanent duration, every time cut the strings is used, it would decrease the number of available marionettes (at least until the tasks are finished).
The idea behind Cut the Strings is to be able to send your Marionette on a little mission beyond its normal 45' without it panicking or doing what it was last doing over and over. It uses its partial mind (with an Int score of 10) and those three orders you gave it to work out what it's supposed to do and how to do it.
You wouldn't get a new Arcane Core unless the Marionette was destroyed on its mission, so yes, theoretically you could get stuck with one less Marionette than usual (puppet-napped!). Maybe I should make a spell that lets you render a Core inert at a distance...
One thing I was thinking of having was the drawback that if a mage got a hold of one of your prepared Cores, they would have an easier time casting Curses and the like on you. I figured that would have been too much to keep track of, though.
maybe a self destruct that the marionette can perform when in a worse case scenario he just makes his core inert so he doesn't impair the puppeteer.
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It seems odd to give them a fortification and a specific weakness involving crits. I would drop Resilience and leave the Critical Vulnerability.
Sacraficial Doll should be a sacrafice. Also consider adding in some other aspects for it like the Puppeteer fails a save and has the option to shift the effect to a marionette. You could add in based on descriptors.
A suicide bomb Marionette would be cool.
Knacks that let you use their senses, or extend their range would be neat.
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New Puppeteer Progression Chart
All-New Marionette Ability Sheet
Rearranged a few things. Swapped out the excessive number of Cores for some bonus feats. Made Sacrificial Doll a bit harder on the Marionette. Removed the link between the number of Marionettes and their hit dice, and went with a chart instead. Changed the number of prepared cores a Puppeteer can have. Explicitly stated that Marionettes were mute without Ventriloquism. Cleared up Cut the Strings and Marionette's range a little.
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New Puppeteer Progression Chart
All-New Marionette Ability Sheet
Rearranged a few things. Swapped out the excessive number of Cores for some bonus feats. Made Sacrificial Doll a bit harder on the Marionette. Removed the link between the number of Marionettes and their hit dice, and went with a chart instead. Changed the number of prepared cores a Puppeteer can have. Explicitly stated that Marionettes were mute without Ventriloquism. Cleared up Cut the Strings and Marionette's range a little.
Looks better! Should the combat knacks say something about marionette size? I noticed it stated marionettes were small except with knacks but i didn't notice a knack that allowed for increased size. If they do go up a size category, you might want to decrease the range to which they can be thrown. Overall great looking class...I might try and introduce one of these as a villain in my campaign or see if my GM would let me play one :D
EDIT: oops, i did miss the size increases!
It seems odd to give them a fortification and a specific weakness involving crits. I would drop Resilience and leave the Critical Vulnerability.
Part of the reason I give them Fortification is the idea that they're solid wood (or porcelain, or whatever)- precision matters little when you're trying to hack them apart. Stabbing them in the joint is just about as effective as the head- it's all wood, except for the Core, which is darn hard to hit. But when you do, boy is it good.
Sacraficial Doll should be a sacrafice. Also consider adding in some other aspects for it like the Puppeteer fails a save and has the option to shift the effect to a marionette. You could add in based on descriptors.
Apparently I was ahead of you on the Sacrifice bit. Like I said, originally I wanted to destroy the doll outright, but thought that would screw the player too much. Now they take double damage, which with their low Hit Dice relative to encounters, ought to do the job.
Knacks that let you use their senses, or extend their range would be neat.
I'll see what I can do. I thought that Cut the Strings would be good for them range-wise... how far do your combats typically range? 45' covers most combats I've been in, but my experience is limited.
Looks better! Should the combat knacks say something about marionette size? I noticed it stated marionettes were small except with knacks but i didn't notice a knack that allowed for increased size. If they do go up a size category, you might want to decrease the range to which they can be thrown. Overall great looking class...I might try and introduce one of these as a villain in my campaign or see if my GM would let me play one :DEDIT: oops, i did miss the size increases!
Aha, I should clear that up too. My writing assumes that the Puppeteer keeps her Marionettes Diminutive for easy storage until they are Deployed. Since they can grow during or after deployment, they can be Diminutive while "thrown" and then grow as they hit the ground.
Thanks for all the feedback, keep it coming!
Maybe you should include the Repair xxx Damage spells to her spell list?
Maybe you should include the Repair xxx Damage spells to her spell list?
I might if I had access to those sources. All my books except for the Rulebook and Bestiary are packed for the move, and I can't find those spells in either one... those were in Eberron, if I remember right?
Yes. Basically functions as Cure XXX Wounds, but only works on constructs. Answer me: if you deactivate a Marionette, it still will be damaged when you deploy it again?
if you deactivate a Marionette, it still will be damaged when you deploy it again?
Yes. As it stands, you'd need to use Mending on it or figure out some way of using the Craft skill to fix it. I should also add Stone Shape and Wood Shape to the spell list, as they seem appropriate...
Edit: And Make Whole. 1d6 per level, seems like a decent replacement for the Cure chain. Don't know how it is I missed that one.
Revised the Marionette Ability Table to actually include its abilities. Added four new Puppet Knacks, three of which were based on suggestions. Added Make Whole to Spell List at 1st level. Cleaned up various text.
i think the understudy knack is pretty cool, i might throw out there it would be cool if there was a way for the puppeteer to remain alive in his Marionette even after his body is killed.
i just imagine the idea of the party going on a mission to resurrect the puppeteer with him in the Marionette.
i think another idea which would be cool would be the Marionettes using their strings as weapons to grapple and trip also you should also consider adding the 3.5 feat swam fighter as a knack for the Marionette's to use, it would allow more than one Marionette to occupy the same square as the enemy they are fighting.
i think another idea which would be cool would be the Marionettes using their strings as weapons to grapple and trip also you should also consider adding the 3.5 feat swam fighter as a knack for the Marionette's to use, it would allow more than one Marionette to occupy the same square as the enemy they are fighting.
As it stands, you assign your Marionette's skill points and feats like a mini-character, so there's no reason you couldn't have the Marionette take Swarm Fighting (if your DM allows it).
As for combat maneuvers, the size penalties for Marionettes is pretty stiff, except for advanced Combat Marionettes. That's what's kept me from really exploring those areas with the puppets.
Rearranged the Puppet Knacks. Made it clearer that Combat, Skillful, Spell-Slinging and Healing Puppet couldn't apply to the same Marionette. Added three more Knacks, based on Northbrb's suggestion (size penalties weren't as bad as I thought they were). Added Fabricate at 5th level, Stone Shape at 4th level, and Wood Shape at 3rd level. Changed Prodigy of Puppetry into two feats, so that a Puppeteer couldn't have four Marionettes by 4th level.
it all looks great, i will be adding this class to my group with your permission of course i think it will be a great addition for me and my friends.
is there a way for me to copy this to my computer so i have a copy for myself, as long as you don't mind me copying it.
is there a way for me to copy this to my computer so i have a copy for myself, as long as you don't mind me copying it.
I certainly don't mind you having a copy of it. You should be able to click on "File-Download" and save it as your favorite file type. They were originally made using the OpenOffice program suite.
thank you
Added five new Puppet Knacks, for a total of 26. Might get to run one soon to test the balance of some of these...
Folded some of the Improved/Supreme Puppet Knacks into their base ones as level improvements instead, so that players aren't "forced" to waste Knack slots on pseudo-required upgrades. Also, turned the Knacks list into a bulleted list for visual ease.
Fixed the saving throws on the Marionettes' ability table. Included the Marionette Ability Table in the class description for illustration.