I do think that psionics are harder to just drop into a module than anything else. Can it be done properly? I don't know. Would have to think about it, don't want to. Will they do it, maybe with an module or even AP that requires an extra book to play (the Psi book)? I wouldn't hold my breath for that, as something like that means lots of cancelled subscriptions.
Anyway, let's look at this: How to drop a ___ into a module:
Psionics mean more space. The general explanation might eat up no more space than, say, an alchemist with his special alchemy stuff, but you'll have to reprint any psi feats, have to explain the focus. That alone increases the space needed. And then you'll have to reprint, or at the very least summarise, all the powers the character uses. That can get real big real fast.
I'm not sure it's worth it, if you can accomplish similar stuff (flavour-wise) with sorcerers and so on.
So we really need a psi-book and modules dedicated to it (and requiring it). I don't think they'll do that with an AP. Maybe a couple of modules, or even a big super-module.
still no psionic class's?
Psionic class's what?
Core vs non core. All non core rules MUST be reprinted and done so in 2 to 4 pages. Even the summnor can be explained in 2 to 4 pages the psionc rules would need reprinted as they do not use any of the core rules
They are the only class that does not use the core magic rules, even the alchemist uses the core magic rules.
So if ya can reprint 11 pages + all used powers in 2 pages then do so.
With the SRD as a free resource or the ability to produce a free printable pdf is it necessary to fit the material in 2 pages or less, or even include it in the AP at all? I don't really have a dog in this fight, since I've never played psionics, I don't subscribe to the adventure paths (although my dm does and we are playing one), and from the sounds of it I don't think psionics goes far enough (I like the 'create-your-own-spell' systems like EoM and WoD). But if/when paizo develops their own psionic system couldn't they just have a psionic BBEG list his stats, spells, and other abilities then direct people to download an 11 page free psionic supplement from paizo if they have further questions. Downloading a free supplement is hardly onerous, and it frees up pages (whether it's 2,4, or 11) for further adventure material. Seems win-win to me. The supplement hardly needs to be all inclusive just enough to run npcs, and so shouldn't detract from sales of any psionic handbook. In fact it may boost sales by producing a buzz or assuaging fears of those who are on the fence or have had bad experiences with psionics in the past.
As a red-head, I take offense that that remark! ;P
You're lying" You're lying! I see your hair, and it is green!
And I'm NOT red-green blind!
:P
As a red-head, I take offense that that remark! ;PYou're lying" You're lying! I see your hair, and it is green!
And I'm NOT red-green blind!
:P
Ack! I've been discovered!!!
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Psionics mean more space. The general explanation might eat up no more space than, say, an alchemist with his special alchemy stuff, but you'll have to reprint any psi feats, have to explain the focus. That alone increases the space needed. And then you'll have to reprint, or at the very least summarise, all the powers the character uses. That can get real big real fast.
You forgot to mention the Display rules.
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With the SRD as a free resource or the ability to produce a free printable pdf is it necessary to fit the material in 2 pages or less, or even include it in the AP at all? I don't really have a dog in this fight, since I've never played psionics, I don't subscribe to the adventure paths (although my dm does and we are playing one), and from the sounds of it I don't think psionics goes far enough (I like the 'create-your-own-spell' systems like EoM and WoD). But if/when paizo develops their own psionic system couldn't they just have a psionic BBEG list his stats, spells, and other abilities then direct people to download an 11 page free psionic supplement from paizo if they have further questions. Downloading a free supplement is hardly onerous, and it frees up pages (whether it's 2,4, or 11) for further adventure material. Seems win-win to me. The supplement hardly needs to be all inclusive just enough to run npcs, and so shouldn't detract from sales of any psionic handbook. In fact it may boost sales by producing a buzz or assuaging fears of those who are on the fence or have had bad experiences with psionics in the past.
Paizo have stated they have no interest in doing something like that. Mostly because it then punishes people who don't have access to a computer.
Okay, one way that psionics could work in this system is to get rid of limits and make them Supernatural at will powers. You choose some generic powers at first level, then gain more as you gain levels, depending on your chosen discipline. It could work like this.
Psion
d6 hit die, slow BAB progression, Fast Will save progression. 2+Int skill. No armor, simple weapons only.
Level One - Psions choose a discipline from one of the following schools: Psychokinesis, Telepresence, Psychometabolism, Metacognition, Psychopathy, and Metacreativity. Once chosen, the psion gains 2 powers at first level, then 1 more every fourth level, to max out at 7 powers at 20'th level.
Psychokinesis
Telekinesis (Su): At will, the psion can move objects as per the Telekinesis spell, with the caster level being the Psion's level.
Pyrokinesis (Su): At will, the psion can create a ball of fire (1d4 damage), increase the damage of a fire by one die increment (d6 turns to d8), or decrease a fire by one die increment (d6 turns to d4). If this would lower the fire to below a d4, the fire goes out.
Telepresence
Line-to-sight Teleport (Su): At will, the psion can teleport to to 5 ft/level of psion.
Shift (Su): At will, the psion shifts over to the Astral Plane. This shift lasts as long as the Psion can maintain complete concentration.
Psychometabolism
Strength (Su): At will, the Psion can increase his strength score by +2. This increases to +4 at 6th level, +6 at 12th level, and +8 at 20th level.
Heal (Su): At will, the Psion can heal up to his constitution score in Hit Points. The Psion can only affect himself in this manner.
This is only an example of what it could be. I just kind of pulled this together in 20 minutes. In my opinion, this would work way better than a power point system. However, the amount of powers would be pretty extensive, and they'd have to be tweaked to not be overpowered. But with all the depictions of psionics, they seem to be more like super powers, usable at will. It would also allow for a great deal of versatility. A Psion using Psychometabolism would actually make a good front-line fighter, even with his d6 hit die.
Anyway, this just came to me, so let me know what you think.
What I said.Paizo have stated they have no interest in doing something like that. Mostly because it then punishes people who don't have access to a computer.
What a waste. I guess it is nice for those few that don't have a computer and can't find access to one. That being said, though, I seem to recall a series of posts by James Jacobs saying that 50 pages of adventure is all they could ever produce in a month. Space wasn't the limiting factor time, however, was. If this is the case then does it matter if and AP includes an additional 11 pages of psionic material? Is that going to increase the cost much? If it is already written and can just be added at the beginning or end of any applicable AP I still don't see it as being to much of an issue.
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Psionics would take up more then two pages unless you changed it.The most you would have to do is do the stat block of the NPC using Psionics, along with a short description to the few powers they have. That takes about 2 pages. It only takes a couple of pages in a Monster Manual to cover a creature and all of there their unusual abilities.
Two pages of an AP on a statblock is a lot, the only character in RotRL who gets that much is Karzoug himself.
I'm going to explain in more detail, although it has already been said.
Bit of an old example but... in the adnd Monstrous Manual they included psionic monsters.
Before I had a copy of the psionics rules I was not able to use those monsters.
As an example of why, these are the spell-like abilities of an Astral Deva:
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 13th)
At Will—aid, continual flame, detect evil, discern lies (DC 20), dispel evil (DC 21), dispel magic, holy aura (DC 24), holy smite (DC 20), holy word (DC 23), invisibility (self only), plane shift (DC 23), remove curse, remove disease, remove fear
7/day—cure light wounds, see invisibility
1/day—blade barrier (DC 22), heal
The rules are not listed, just the spells. These spells are all from the core rulebook so they don't need rules.
If the Astral Deva was given a spell from the APG then it would need to be explained in the Astral Deva's stat block because that spell would not be part of the core rules.
If I made a psionic Astral Deva and put it into an AP it would not just need a power list, it would need the rules for each and every power and the rules for how they work.
Why?
Because the APs assume that the player only has the Core Rulebook and Bestiary. Nothing else.
I think this assumption is a real strength of the APs and modules.
I'm cool with a psionics book for players and homebrew DMs (APG and Ultimate Magic are for players and homebrew DMs too) but I don't want it to be core.
Well, seekerofshadowlight and meatrace have just highlighted what I said right at the start:
- A lot of 3.5 psionics lovers want psionics in Pathfinder.
- Paizo's basic formula does not fit with 3.5 psionics (allegedly) because they are too extensive a subsystem.
- Therefore Pathfinder Psionics must change radically to a more easily recognizable/describable system.
- If they change the psionics system, the 3.5 psionics-lovers will not like it.
See the problem?
So we either have to stick to the 3.5 system and find a way of making it/Paizo fit together, or else they may as well come up with a different system for unconventional magic, call it "Mysticism" or something, and leave the name "psionics" out of it and supported by 3rd parties for those that like them - that way you have a new system but you don't alienate the psionics-lovers.
Edit: and on the question of 'can you describe the psionics system in a page', here is what I wrote up in less than an hour:
Psionics is a system of ‘magic’ that uses a point-based casting system rather than spell slots. The ‘spells’ in psionics are referred to as powers (they tend to be a bit more flexible than spells), the ‘casting’ of a power is referred to as manifesting the power, and expends power points to do so.
Power Points
The number of power points a psionic character has is based on their character level and their primary manifesting attribute, just as a spell-caster’s number of spells per day depends on their level and casting attribute. A psionic manifesting character can expend as many power points on a power as they have manifesting levels – this is important, as some powers require you to spend extra points to get extra effects.
Powers Known
The number of powers a psionic character knows also depends on their class and level. Like a sorcerer, a psionic character simply knows their abilities; they do not get to change them once they know them except in special circumstances.
Augmenting Powers
Spending extra power points above and beyond the minimum needed to manifest the power is called augmenting the power. As stated above, this can be done to a total number of power points equal to the manifesters manifesting level (the same as a caster’s casting level). When a power is augmented it may gain new properties – extra dice of damage for damaging powers is most common, or increases in saving throw DC. These all depend on the specific description of the power.
Manifesting Powers
To manifest a power is a little like casting a spell – it has a manifesting time (like a casting time) and requires concentration with a concentration check, just as casting a spell does, and can provoke attacks of opportunity just as casting spells can. The major difference is that manifesting a power does not require special words, gestures, or materials (unless specified in a few rare powers). Thus, manifesters don’t have a ‘spell failure’ chance for wearing armour, although few do wear armour. When a power is manifested there is a ‘display’ which is an effect that can be perceived – usually by anyone, but some ‘mental’ displays could only be perceived by the manifester and the subject(s) of the power. It is up to the DM how the power displays, but most are pretty obvious: energy ray with a display of ‘visual’ would likely be a bolt of, say, lightning stretching from the manifester to the target. Displays should make the manifester fairly obvious in most cases, just as casting a spell makes a caster obvious.
The Definition of ‘Psionic’
Any creature with what are described as ‘psi-like abilities’ (an ability that mimics a psionic power) and/or with psionic power points has the psionic sub-type.
Autohypnosis and Psionic Focus
A feature of all psionic creatures is the ability to gain what is called ‘psionic focus’ – a state of mind where the psychic perceptions are heightened. To do this a check is made with the Autohypnosis skill against a DC of 20. This takes at least a standard action. This focus can be maintained to supply some advantages with some feats and/or class abilities, or expended as an effort of will to achieve the same. Once psionic focus is expended it must be regained normally.
Psionic Feats
Psionic feats can only be taken by psionic creatures. Some psionic feats require you to expend psionic focus in order to achieve an effect – metapsionic feats which function a little like metamagic usually require it, for example. Because of this additional requirement (and the difficulty of repeating it), psionic feats can sometimes achieve considerable effects.
Anything significant I missed out?
Indeed.
I'm not that familiar with various APs but I'm sure they never add new items, feats, prestige classes...Psionic character? Add the following line to Offense:
Power Points: XX; Manifester level: yyNow, presuming a 5th-level character, also...
Sign and you just eat up a massive word count and not explained how the powers work, you have changed it and made it simple and not used the rules from the XPH.
You did not explain the focus{ Who do you get it?, when do you loose it? what does it do?}, or display effects, or well anything really. And you 11 powers used up a whole page{11 would use up more then one page really], on top of your simple level three stat block. You easily used up twice to 3 times as much space as any other class of that level
exsample of what you left out from the book
Gain Psionic Focus
Merely holding a reservoir of psionic power points in mind gives psionic characters a special energy. Psionic characters can put that energy to work without actually paying a power point cost—they can become psionically focused as a special use of the Concentration skill.
If you have 1 or more power points available, you can meditate to attempt to become psionically focused. The DC to become psionically focused is 20. Meditating is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. When you are psionically focused, you can expend your focus on any single Concentration check you make thereafter. When you expend your focus in this manner, your Concentration check is treated as if you rolled a 15. It’s like taking 10, except that the number you add to your Concentration modifier is 15. You can also expend your focus to gain the benefit of a psionic feat—many psionic feats are activated in this way.
Once you are psionically focused, you remain focused until you expend your focus, become unconscious, or go to sleep (or enter a meditative trance, in the case of elans), or until your power point reserve drops to 0.
Now you could lose some of that, but the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs explain how it works in game. Something someone running a psionic NPC needs to know
Ninja'd you with an edit, seeker.
Ya still missed a great deal honestly. That however is a good intro but you still left out a damned lot that would need to be included
You would also now need to include the Autohypnosis skill and the line "you remain focused until you expend your focus, become unconscious, or go to sleep or until your power point reserve drops to 0."
I think what you wrote would need expanded a a bit to be useful to someone with no working knowledge of psionics
Yes, it would, as that is just a first draft knocked out in an hour - but that was also less than one page of A4, so I think it's doable on two pages to get what a DM needs to know. Would a DM need to know that psionic focus is lost if you sleep or get knocked out? How often would that actually be relevant for an NPC? Not often, I don't think. The point here is to include what is needed, enough to get the bare bones and feel of the system and run an NPC for an encounter or two, and skip the rest. Of course you would have to include the text for powers and psi-like abilities for any psionic characters as well ... still, with the PSRD I think it would be sufficient - especially as you can include a fair chunk of it as a standardised block.
In short ... it's doable with the 3.5-type psionics, if only just. I don't think it's any worse than including any other new system for 'eastern mysticism' should Paizo go that route instead. Invariably I think that any campaign source for the East of Golarian is going to include extra rules anyway, and is going to involve a 'must have' source book one way or another, so stripping the psionics system right down to the bare bones for inclusion and missing a lot of the details is not an issue so far as I can see. Those details matter ... for psionic PCs; for NPCs they often do not matter at all. If the game-mastery guide can advocate using the stats of a guard-dog for a human warrior if the DM needs to reskin it, the minor details of psionics are not going to be an issue if there are no psionic characters in the party, and if there are then you have access to the full rule-set anyway.
What are the other options? re-write the entire psionics rules, and risk alienating the psionics lovers and defeating the object of including psionics, or create another set of rules for 'eastern magic' and have to include that instead.
Thanks Meepo! Of course the acid test is giving it to someone who never played the 3.x psionics system and see if they could run a psionic NPC, but I think that's the core of it there.
Senevri, I agree - and if they could spend three pages on diseases, two on psionics is no cost at all. I mean, disease has it's place in a fantasy world, but it has restricted applications in role-playing.
On the subject of polymorph, Dreamscarred Press have nailed the psionic Metamorphosis power perfectly - in line with Pathfinder, avoiding being broken or over powered ... genius!
I guess no one liked my idea for psionics.
I guess no one liked my idea for psionics.
Sorry, but a lot of people like the psionics system from 3.5, and in a way that is the point of doing Pathfinder psionics.
Of course the acid test is giving it to someone who never played the 3.x psionics system and see if they could run a psionic NPC, but I think that's the core of it there.I can't see your write-up being any harder to use than the rules for the alchemist class, which has a similar complexity and word count.
While I agree that his write-up quite succinctly describes, in general, how psionics work, I never thought describing the system to be the big cost on word count. I believe that the biggest thing to omit or include the actual power and feat descriptions. I believe is what those is what balloons the size of the character stat block.
While I agree that his write-up quite succinctly describes, in general, how psionics work, I never thought describing the system to be the big cost on word count. I believe that the biggest thing to omit or include the actual power and feat descriptions. I believe is what those is what balloons the size of the character stat block.Of course the acid test is giving it to someone who never played the 3.x psionics system and see if they could run a psionic NPC, but I think that's the core of it there.I can't see your write-up being any harder to use than the rules for the alchemist class, which has a similar complexity and word count.
This is true. But unless you have very high levels involved, the number of feats and powers will not be astronomical, and many will be able to reference a spell instead. If what was said is true, that it's the time and not the page count that is the problem, then this is a non-issue as it's a case of copy-and-paste.
I like the idea of psychic powers but the d20 take on them wasn't even remotely what I wanted. Actually it just felt like "lets do the spell point magic system, yay!". I would rather prefer something akin Psychic feats from Call Of Cthulhu d20, maybe without ability damage, except for the most powerful psychic abilities. Or something along the lines the Green Ronin did with skill-based psychic abilities but not the things from Psionc Handbook (EPH was a small, small bit better but it still felt like recycled magic rules, which misses the point of psionics in my opinion).
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I've typically stayed away from posting in psionic threads because each time I read them, I see the wars start up between a few people, and because I've never really liked them. However, I've managed to have a (mostly) nice, adult flameless opposed convo in a 4e forum (which I also don't like), so I figured why not.
First, I'll give some information that I obtained from this year's Gen Con during a Paizo seminar. It was said that if psionics is done, it won't be for a very long time, even put after the potential Epic rules. If done, it will likely be on one of the heretofore unused livable planets, due to the major difference in workings. Reasons given for it not having been done, or possibility of not being done at all: ~70% of the fan base is against psionics altogether; they'd want to make sure to sit down and find a way to fix everything that people have complained about while still managing to keep the most people possible happy with the rules update/grade.
Anyway...I don't know how to play a psionic, and I did not find that printing of the rules sufficient to teach me, though kudos for putting it together. As for putting things in a 2 page drop in an AP for an NPC...sure maybe that can be done as you described (or even 3 when comparing contagious disease). However, how is that 2 page drop going to help any player, or DM (which I spend most of my time doing these days) properly know how to run or play a full psionic class? Maybe you don't need more than a few pages of rules for a going-to-die-anyway NPC BBEG (though as the DM who'd be running it, I'd really like more info over less), but you most certainly need a full class layout, plus the spell (power?) lists, etc., just like every other full progression (or even PrC) class.
@ YamadaJisho While going against psionic fans, I do like your idea, as it seems to keep things more in line with the rest of the system, which IIRC was one of the main arguments with the anti-psionics (Vancian vs PP).
**I apologize in advance if anyone feels I stepped on their toes, etc.
This is true. But unless you have very high levels involved, the number of feats and powers will not be astronomical, and many will be able to reference a spell instead. If what was said is true, that it's the time and not the page count that is the problem, then this is a non-issue as it's a case of copy-and-paste.While I agree that his write-up quite succinctly describes, in general, how psionics work, I never thought describing the system to be the big cost on word count. I believe that the biggest thing to omit or include the actual power and feat descriptions. I believe is what those is what balloons the size of the character stat block.Of course the acid test is giving it to someone who never played the 3.x psionics system and see if they could run a psionic NPC, but I think that's the core of it there.I can't see your write-up being any harder to use than the rules for the alchemist class, which has a similar complexity and word count.
I believe that even lower level characters will balloon up quick unless you are designing your spell lists specifically to use powers that are the same as spells (or similar enough to require only a few words after like [target self only] or [standard action casting time]).
It may be that the page count is not the problem. I don't think though that, just because it isn't the primary issue with designing, that it would mean that they could, without thought, just give a few pages from an adventure to describing psionic rules along with the powers and feats used in the adventure.
IMO all open gaming content should be fair game for module creators and certainly open gaming content from Paizo itself (I can understand only supporting your own content). Non core open gaming content should be given a footnote about which book they can be found in. With a note at the beginning of the book that all the necessary rules for non core content can also be found in a web enhancement.
While I am fine with being told to see a non-core rulebook for additional information (like more information on a city, random monster tables, etc.), I prefer that Paizo continue what they have been doing and just have all the mechanics I need for non-core material in adventures. I would rather have the adventure be as self-contained as possible.
I like the idea of psychic powers but the d20 take on them wasn't even remotely what I wanted. Actually it just felt like "lets do the spell point magic system, yay!". I would rather prefer something akin Psychic feats from Call Of Cthulhu d20, maybe without ability damage, except for the most powerful psychic abilities. Or something along the lines the Green Ronin did with skill-based psychic abilities but not the things from Psionc Handbook (EPH was a small, small bit better but it still felt like recycled magic rules, which misses the point of psionics in my opinion).
Ironically, the whole system harks back to 1e AD&D psionics system, and the EPH was just a logical progression from that balanced up to work alongside conventional casting.
I don't buy that ~70% of the fan-base is against psionics, quite frankly from what I have seen it's more like ~30% is for it, ~20% are not keen on the idea and the other ~50% aren't bothered either way.
I think Paizo may well have the right idea in that any psionics system should be presented in such a way as to be entirely optional for everyone concerned.
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I like the idea of psychic powers but the d20 take on them wasn't even remotely what I wanted. Actually it just felt like "lets do the spell point magic system, yay!". I would rather prefer something akin Psychic feats from Call Of Cthulhu d20, maybe without ability damage, except for the most powerful psychic abilities. Or something along the lines the Green Ronin did with skill-based psychic abilities but not the things from Psionc Handbook (EPH was a small, small bit better but it still felt like recycled magic rules, which misses the point of psionics in my opinion).Ironically, the whole system harks back to 1e AD&D psionics system, and the EPH was just a logical progression from that balanced up to work alongside conventional casting.
I don't buy that ~70% of the fan-base is against psionics, quite frankly from what I have seen it's more like ~30% is for it, ~20% are not keen on the idea and the other ~50% aren't bothered either way.
I think Paizo may well have the right idea in that any psionics system should be presented in such a way as to be entirely optional for everyone concerned.
It will, I think, have to be an optional system.
In this case I can still envisage one way to get psionic characters into the APs.
Stat-up a load of psionic characters, publish them, and then include notes next to some characters/monsters in APs saying: "If you are using psionics, this character's stats can be replaced with stat block X on page Y of the Masters of Mind book."
Could do the same thing with APG classes: "If you are using the APG, this character's stats can be replaced with stat block X on page Y of the New Adventurers book."
This would mean an extra publication but it would give psionics fans more than just the odd token psionicist and still preserve the 'core only' nature of the APS and modules.
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Paizo have stated they have no interest in doing something like that. Mostly because it then punishes people who don't have access to a computer.All 2 of them.
IMO all open gaming content should be fair game for module creators and certainly open gaming content from Paizo itself (I can understand only supporting your own content). Non core open gaming content should be given a footnote about which book they can be found in. With a note at the beginning of the book that all the necessary rules for non core content can also be found in a web enhancement.
Anyone can manage to print out a web enhancement, even if they don't have a computer themselves.
This suggests that world internet usage is at 28.7%. Even though the stats are higher in North America (77%), Europe (58%) and Australasia (61%) they are far from 99.9%.
You might want to realise that Paizo sells plenty of books at FLGSs and that there are a number of subscribers who migrated from Dragon and Dungeon.
But it goes further than that: all of my gaming group are internet literate and have home access. However, I am the only one who downloads web enhancements or uses the PRD and other OGL sites.
If I didn't do it, nobody would. They would still want to enjoy the Paizo books they were buying.
The problem with the idea of "I want psionics to be utterly unique and not copy magic at all" is that it can't. It honestly can't. Vancian magic in D&D is this bloated, lumbering hivemind that devours all it sees to incorporate it's magical ideas into the great biomass.
You can't really have distinct psionics when the wizard is casting Telekinesis or Charm Person.
The problem with the idea of "I want psionics to be utterly unique and not copy magic at all" is that it can't. It honestly can't. Vancian magic in D&D is this bloated, lumbering hivemind that devours all it sees to incorporate it's magical ideas into the great biomass.
You can't really have distinct psionics when the wizard is casting Telekinesis or Charm Person.
QFT.
What is like the magic system about 3.5-style psionics? Well, the powers are divided into nine levels with roughly analogous power level to the spells of the same level. This largely makes balancing the two easier and of course level is important for save DCs, concentration checks and so on so that's a 'Rosetta Stone' standard you pretty much have to use.
Other than that and the effects of the powers, which as Prof C points out above is pretty much unavoidable because magic can do anything, what's so similar about it?
Nothing, really. You merely have fitted the psionics system to the bare minimum of the general mechanics to make it work.
I've generally found that psionics does not have the staying power of magic. They have a better resource system, but less resources.
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I've generally found that psionics does not have the staying power of magic. They have a better resource system, but less resources.
Somebody wrote a comparison of how magic and psionic resources in the now archived thread.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/archives/psionics8qe5k&page=2
That's the 2nd of the big psionics thread that I can remember. Same old story. People don't understand it, cry broken, and uses that everytime psionics come back up. Ignoring the fact that magic probably also did extremely broken things until people figured out how to stop it and/or possibly even noticing that things don't work as those people claim.
The Paizo staff (mainly James Jacobs) has already stated that if and when they do psionics it will be user friendly with the current system in place and the psion will most likely be similar to the sorcerer. This is their current thoughts but is by no means what they will stick with when it comes down to making the class. So for everyone saying "Psionics will take up too much space", Paizo is aware of this and will probably make it so it fits with the current magic system and only adds to it in a unique way. I trust them on this. For everyone saying "Psionics HAS to be different from magic", you are correct but it does not have to be different in every conceivable way. As long as it fits with the current system, they could do whatever they want. If they make a Vancian psionic that is different from the sorcerer and wizard, I will eat that up like candy because at least I will have workable psionics rules for this system that I like.
Good lord, this topic and the one on Epic rules always goes the same way. Half of the people are against it for silly reasons and the other half are for it for different silly reasons. The thing that gets me is that people on either side of the fence have to scream from the top of their lungs "IF THIS PRODUCT IS RELEASED (OR NOT RELEASED IN THE WAY I WANT IT) I WILL NOT PURCHASE IT". Fine so be it. Paizo makes the majority of their money from APs and other stuff. And I'm guessing that while initially you all will be hesitant against it, when the products actually come out (and you see the playtests for them) you will shell out the money for them because they will change something about it that will draw you in. WoTC did it for years, and now Paizo will do the same, the difference between the companies is that with Paizo you, the consumer, get a feeling that you contribute to the end product. Face it, you might as well start saving your hard earned money now because it is only a matter of time.
Well, cutting the PP to 1/4 (round up) for psions/wilders but making it recoverable with, say, 15min-30min meditation is one way to give them staying power, while assuring they don't nova too much per combat.
OR: Cut max PP to, oh, about 50% of what it is now, and add a fatigue effect: A psion can recover their PP by 15 minutes of meditation, but each time they recover, the maximum PP they can recover is reduced by..say, 20% rounded up. They can recover their true maximum PP with the usual 8H rest. This could even be static, precalculated one, so a 10th level psion, instead of having 70ish PP would have something like 35, which is reduced by 7 each time they recover, so 35/28/21/14/7.
You could even leave the lowest number to be ALWAYS recoverable - 7 persistent PP for a 10th level psion isn't much leeway, but they wouldn't be COMPLETELY powerless.Or some variant thereof.
Compared to the wizard or sorcerer, they are nerfed to hell and back in the 'one big fight scenarios' you sometimes get in some games if you do this; that's what people forget: casters can also nova. That's the problem with limiting the power points - I've just completed a seriously big combat like that with a wilder, and even though I was frugal with the power points and eked them out longer than the wizard in the party's spells, they were all out before the end of the battle. If I'd been limited to 1/4 or even 1/2 of my power points, my character would have been unable to contribute effectively at all.
The simplest and most effective solution is the one used against casters going nova: don't let them forget that the fifteen minute adventuring day is not an option.
There's a more number -crunchy comparison here between 3.5 psionics and Pathfinder casting.
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If you all look at this amount of heated arguing and disagreement in this thread, you will see for yourself why there will probably not be a psionic AP from Paizo. It's too controversial a topic.
There are many groups that don't use psionics at all (3.5 or otherwise) that would be very likely to cancel their subscriptions for the psionic AP. There are also many groups who would not like any "new" rules that apply to a Pathfinderized psionic system that may cancel their AP subscription. That leaves a relatively small portion of Paizo's current customer base (not the RPG customer base as a whole, but Paizo's currently established fan base) who may be on board for their AP.
Bottom line: The audience is too splintered to make a psionic AP viable economically - and not just because of the word count arguments that seem to creep up - especially when you consider that APs are Paizo's bread and butter product for generating income. The payoffs just not worth the risk.
I removed a couple posts that didn't keep things civil. In other news, please keep things civil.
The Paizo staff (mainly James Jacobs) has already stated that if and when they do psionics it will be user friendly with the current system in place and the psion will most likely be similar to the sorcerer. This is their current thoughts but is by no means what they will stick with when it comes down to making the class. So for everyone saying "Psionics will take up too much space", Paizo is aware of this and will probably make it so it fits with the current magic system and only adds to it in a unique way. I trust them on this. For everyone saying "Psionics HAS to be different from magic", you are correct but it does not have to be different in every conceivable way. As long as it fits with the current system, they could do whatever they want. If they make a Vancian psionic that is different from the sorcerer and wizard, I will eat that up like candy because at least I will have workable psionics rules for this system that I like.
Good lord, this topic and the one on Epic rules always goes the same way. Half of the people are against it for silly reasons and the other half are for it for different silly reasons. The thing that gets me is that people on either side of the fence have to scream from the top of their lungs "IF THIS PRODUCT IS RELEASED (OR NOT RELEASED IN THE WAY I WANT IT) I WILL NOT PURCHASE IT". Fine so be it. Paizo makes the majority of their money from APs and other stuff. And I'm guessing that while initially you all will be hesitant against it, when the products actually come out (and you see the playtests for them) you will shell out the money for them because they will change something about it that will draw you in. WoTC did it for years, and now Paizo will do the same, the difference between the companies is that with Paizo you, the consumer, get a feeling that you contribute to the end product. Face it, you might as well start saving your hard earned money now because it is only a matter of time.
I knew I remembered seeing some of the Paizo staff chime in their thoughts on what they might do in the future with psionics.
I've always been in the camp that psionics is another form of magic, regardless of what they name things. I never liked the psionic classes getting their own versions of metamagic and item creation feats, since it made it impossible to make a character that could combine psionics with core magic and still be good at it.Psionics has been the most often changed system in the game since 1st edition. If I remember correctly, the only thing that has been consistent with it is the PowerPoint mechanic. If Paizo redoes psionics as a Vancian system, I'll be sad to see the PowerPoints go, but it doesn't mean that I wouldn't buy the book. I'd actually be happiest if the psionics book did things the Vancian way, and then introduced a spell point variant that all caster classes could use. (It could work and still keep proper class flavor if prepared casters still had to prepare spells, but just added up all the points at the beginning of the day.)
I think that a reasonable facsimile of the 3.5 psions could be made with a set of sorcerer bloodlines and customized spell lists. Some of the augments could maybe be done as metamagic, but that's one that might be hard to get right.