Alternate Feat Advice

[Venjor]

I am looking for advice on allowing certain feats into my game. Many of my players have extensive splat books from previous 3.x versions. Since PFRPG is still 3.x compatible, I generally allow some material from other sources into my PFRPG (since they spent a lot of money on these in the past). Typically, inclusion of other OGL materials hasn’t affected game play and has made many of my players happy to use favorite features, magic items and feats from other sources as supplements. Several have come up that I would like some advice. I am generalizing some of the descriptions since I don’t have the books in front of me.

1. Superior Finesse – Prereq – Weapon Finesse, Dex 13+
Benefit: Ch0ose any weapon eligible for Weapon Finesse. You may add your Dex bonus to damage instead of your Str modifier.

2. Ki of the Masters – Prereq: Wis 13+, Str 11+, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fists, BAB +3 or higher
Benefit: On a successful unarmed strike you can add your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength modifier to the damage roll. This feat is an extraordinary ability.

3. Unarmored Defense Proficiency - Prereq – None
Benefit: Your base AC is increased by a bonus determined by your level when you are unarmored. This bonus does not stack with any armor bonuses granted by armor. When wearing armor this bonus is not applied.
Special: This bonus is applied even when you are caught flat-footed or denied your Dex modifier to your AC. This bonus is an increase to the characters base AC and thus is not named.

Basically it allows a bonus to AC that scales from +1 at level 2 to +7 at level 20

4. There is a series of feats that sequentially have Unarmored Defense Proficiency as a preq: Unarmored Defense Focus which increases the AC bonus scaling to +1 at level 2 to +10 at level 20; Unarmed Defense Specialization which increases the AC bonus scaling to +1 at level 2 to +15 at level 20; and Unarmored Defense Mastery which increases the AC bonus scaling to +1 at level 1 to +20 at level 20.

These are considered general feats which gives me pause. Why wouldn’t any character take these, especially spellcasters? I can see if the feats were limited to the Fighter class such as Weapon Specialization, as these could give flavor for an unarmored fighter character without gimping him too hard at higher levels for not using armor. I’d appreciate feedback on these. Thanks.

[Venjor]

Venjor wrote:

I saw the thread on a Weapon FInesse feat for damage, which was great, so I guess I am looking for advice from people on teh 2-4 above. THanks all.

[xAverusx]

Venjor wrote:

3. Unarmored Defense Proficiency - Prereq – None

Benefit: Your base AC is increased by a bonus determined by your level when you are unarmored. This bonus does not stack with any armor bonuses granted by armor. When wearing armor this bonus is not applied.
Special: This bonus is applied even when you are caught flat-footed or denied your Dex modifier to your AC. This bonus is an increase to the characters base AC and thus is not named.

Basically it allows a bonus to AC that scales from +1 at level 2 to +7 at level 20

This basically allows characters to substitute feats for items, which I'm ok with. My question is: how do these feats interact with a monk's AC bonus?

You could always have it based off of BaB:
Characters get 1/2 their BaB (rounded down) to AC when unarmored for a feat). Does not stack with a monk's AC bonus, but maybe gives it a little boost instead so that monks can remain on the top of the unarmored AC charts.

Venjor wrote:

4. There is a series of feats that sequentially have Unarmored Defense Proficiency as a preq: Unarmored Defense Focus which increases the AC bonus scaling to +1 at level 2 to +10 at level 20; Unarmed Defense Specialization which increases the AC bonus scaling to +1 at level 2 to +15 at level 20; and Unarmored Defense Mastery which increases the AC bonus scaling to +1 at level 1 to +20 at level 20.

Specialization and Mastery seem a little excessive.

They may be able to get raw AC, but they are giving up access to stuff like fortification.

At most, these feats should be on par with the armor/shield a character can wear (with enhancement bonus) minus the special abilities the armor/shield can have.

So, a +5 shield and +5 armor... about 20. Maybe specialization and mastery aren't so excessive.

I guess the questions is: Is it a fair exchange?

You lose versatility in the form of feats. You gain money from not spending it on gear.

[Ughbash]

When considering wether it is compatable with 3.5 consider what splat book it is from.

For example I THINK that your unarmored defense is from a Mongoose book called "Ultimate book of Feats". After renaming it to the "Ultimate book of Overpowered Feats" we banned this even from 3.5 games. In fairness there are some very nice feats in it however many of them were overpowered.

That is not really a Pathfinder issue so much as a 3.0/3.5 issue where a lot of "source books" from questionable sources were released under the d20 license.

[KenderKin]

Take the feats on a case by case basis and ask the PC what other feat he was going to take from RAW.

If it looks ok allow it but make it clear that it is a trial run and that you can decide later to change to the secondary feat...

[xAverusx]

Ok, Venjor has inspired me to create this feat:

Unfettered Defense
You learn a style of avoiding blows that comes from your understanding of combat.
Benefit: When unencumbered, in light or no armor, and not using a shield, you gain a special bonus to armor class equal to your base attack bonus. This special bonus does not apply to CMD or touch AC, nor does it stack with armor or shield bonuses. You lose this special bonus to AC if you are flat-footed.
Special: Monks receive a different benefit. A monk's AC bonus class ability doubles to +2 at 5th level, +4 at 10th level, etc.

Please add this to the pool of feats being considered/critiqued.

[snobi]

Ability substitution feats are some of the best feats out there.

Ughbash wrote:

For example I THINK that your unarmored defense is from a Mongoose book called "Ultimate book of Feats".

Thanks, I hadn't heard of that one. I know the 4 Unarmored Defense feats are in the AEG Feats book, though they may be in Ultimate Feats as well.

xAverusx wrote:

Unfettered Defense
You learn a style of avoiding blows that comes from your understanding of combat.
Benefit: When unencumbered, in light or no armor, and not using a shield, you gain a special bonus to armor class equal to your base attack bonus. This special bonus does not apply to CMD or touch AC, nor does it stack with armor or shield bonuses. You lose this special bonus to AC if you are flat-footed.
Special: Monks receive a different benefit. A monk's AC bonus class ability doubles to +2 at 5th level, +4 at 10th level, etc.

Please add this to the pool of feats being considered/critiqued.

Pretty reasonable. You sort of get it all in one feat, but that's offset by it not applying to touch attacks. Personally, I would drop the "Special" part, or at least edit it so that monks can end up with as much of an AC bonus at level 20 as say the thief. (Also, monks get their AC bonus at every 4 levels in PF.)

[xAverusx]

snobi wrote:

Pretty reasonable. You sort of get it all in one feat, but that's offset by it not applying to touch attacks. Personally, I would drop the "Special" part, or at least edit it so that monks can end up with as much of an AC bonus at level 20 as say the thief. (Also, monks get their AC bonus at every 4 levels in PF.)

Thanks. I was doing this all from memory, so oops on the monk bonus. Still +5 at 20th right?

Monks with this feat can still benefit from Bracers of Armor while a rogue cannot (aside from when they are flat-footed), so I think it's good enough.

Characters with this feat:
Rogue 20: AC +15 no shield, armor bonuses
Monk 20: AC +10+Wis Bonus +Bracers, etc

Without this feat:
Monk 20: AC +5+Wis Bonus +Bracers, etc

Monk still reigns supreme in Unarmored AC bonus.

[snobi]

Oh okay, that makes sense. And yes, it's a +5 bonus at 20th.

[hogarth]

The only ones I'd have a problem with are Unarmored Defense Focus/Specialization/Mastery, and I think those are even salvageable if you put a minimum BAB restriction on them (e.g. +6 BAB required for Focus, +12 BAB required for Specialization, +18 BAB required for Mastery, or something like that).

EDIT: Actually, as a PC, I'd be worried about monsters with high natural armor PLUS Unarmored Defense XYZ on top of that.

[Ughbash]

xAverusx wrote:

Characters with this feat:
Rogue 20: AC +15 no shield, armor bonuses
Monk 20: AC +10+Wis Bonus +Bracers, etc

Without this feat:
Monk 20: AC +5+Wis Bonus +Bracers, etc

Monk still reigns supreme in Unarmored AC bonus.

Paladin: AC +20 + dex +Chaarisma when smiting evil.

I would VERY much hesitate to give this feat. At level 20 a ranger paladin or Fighter gets +20 to AC or a 30 AC not counting Dex, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor etc.

It is like giving them non encumbering +5 full plate and a +4 Large shield that still lets them use dual wield or 2 handed weapons. With the money they save they can easily afford +5 natural armor and +5 Ring of protection giving them AC of 40 +dex + dodge.

IMHO, that makes for an overpowered feat. In a magic poor world it is even more powerful because people will me unlikley to aquire the +5 full plate and +4 shield that it would be equivalent to.

[AvalonXQ]

So when I saw the restrictions on Unfettered Defense I thought of something else:

Unencumbered Defense
Prereq: Deflect Arrows
Whenever you have at least one hand free (holding nothing) and not flat-footed, you gain an armor bonus to AC equal to the dodge bonus granted by the "AC bonus" class feature for a Monk of your character level.

This effectively doubles a Monk's AC bonus, it deals with the restrictions of unarmored/unshielded (because it wouldn't stack with other armor bonuses and you need a hand free).
It seems to address most of the Unfettered issues above.

[AvalonXQ]

Oh, and to provide yet another feat further in the "chain":

Responsive Defense
Prereq: Deflect Arrows, Unencumbered Defense, Snatch Arrows
Whenever you have at least one hand free (holding nothing) and are not flat-footed, you gain an armor bonus to AC equal to the dodge bonus granted by the "AC bonus" class feature for a Monk of your character level. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Unencumbered Defense.
Once per round when an opponent attacks you and misses, you may initiate a Combat Maneuver against that opponent as an immediate action. Your armor bonus granted by this feat must have applied to the attack that provoked your Combat Maneuver. This feat grants no special ability to reach your enemy, and the Maneuver is resolved as normal including attacks of opportunity if appropriate.

Too powerful? It seems far enough along in the feat chain to be fair.

[xAverusx]

Ughbash wrote:

Paladin: AC +20 + dex +Chaarisma when smiting evil.

I would VERY much hesitate to give this feat. At level 20 a ranger paladin or Fighter gets +20 to AC or a 30 AC not counting Dex, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor etc.

It is like giving them non encumbering +5 full plate and a +4 Large shield that still lets them use dual wield or 2 handed weapons. With the money they save they can easily afford +5 natural armor and +5 Ring of protection giving them AC of 40 +dex + dodge.

IMHO, that makes for an overpowered feat. In a magic poor world it is even more powerful because people will me unlikley to aquire the +5 full plate and +4 shield that it would be equivalent to.

You didn't even mention how a barbarian would rock face with this feat...

I appreciate the comments, but please help FIX the feat. I understand that this is/can be very powerful.

For example, a fix I might suggest is to reduce the bonus by half and allow it to stack with shields.

So:
Fighter 20 can have a +10 "armor" bonus from this feat and remain unencumbered or get into some +5 fullplate.

Unfettered Defense (version 3)
You learn a style of avoiding blows that comes from your understanding of combat.
Benefit: When unencumbered and in light or no armor, you gain a bonus to armor class equal to 1/2 your base attack bonus (rounded down). This bonus does not apply to CMD or touch AC, nor does it stack with armor bonuses. You lose this bonus to AC if you are flat-footed.
Special: Monks receive a different benefit. A monk's AC bonus class ability doubles to +2 at 5th level, +4 at 10th level, etc.

[Venjor]

Thanks all for the advice. Here is where I am. I like the new feat creation you all came up with - having it not apply if flat footed and using BAB as the bonus. I also like the feat doubling the monk AC. As for the Ki of the Masters, I'll consider it like the weapon finesse conversation chain. Most seem to approve of a feat that switches to DEX instead of STR if weapon finesse is the prereq and it applies to one weapon.