Kingdom Building

[Warforged Gardener]

I think logging isn't an analogue to farming simply because of the difference in time it takes to replenish your "crop." Given the abstract nature of the BP rules, it might be too longterm to integrate tree farming and logging.

[Alexander MacLeod]

Has the idea of Shrines, Temples, and Cathedrals providing a +1, +2, and +4 bonus based on the alignment of the deity worshiped there (as per the Alignment section on page 55 of Rivers Run Red) come up yet?

This would differentiate a temple of Calistria (+2 loyalty, +2 stability) from a temple to Erastil (+2 economy, +2 loyalty) or a temple to Asmodeus (+4 economy).

[Jason Nelson]

Alexander MacLeod wrote:

Has the idea of Shrines, Temples, and Cathedrals providing a +1, +2, and +4 bonus based on the alignment of the deity worshiped there (as per the Alignment section on page 55 of Rivers Run Red) come up yet?

This would differentiate a temple of Calistria (+2 loyalty, +2 stability) from a temple to Erastil (+2 economy, +2 loyalty) or a temple to Asmodeus (+4 economy).

Interesting idea. The specific effects of temples of different deities is the sort of thing I think would be good to see in a down-the-road expanded version of kingdom/city rules.

[Alexander MacLeod]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Interesting idea. The specific effects of temples of different deities is the sort of thing I think would be good to see in a down-the-road expanded version of kingdom/city rules.

[Mr. Burns] Excellent... [/Mr. Burns]

[Berhagen]

I collected some of the houserules and errata discussed in this thread here:

Kingdom & Cities Errata & Expansion

[Soullos]

This might be a stupid question but here goes: Do you need to build a Road first in order to convert that hex into a Farm? Seems like you do, based on the wording of the Farm description, but I want to make sure.

[Jason Nelson]

Soullos wrote:

This might be a stupid question but here goes: Do you need to build a Road first in order to convert that hex into a Farm? Seems like you do, based on the wording of the Farm description, but I want to make sure.

Nope. You don't need to build a road to build anything.

Roads just give you shorter overland travel times (per the Core Rules) and +1/4 bonus to Economy (per the kingdom rules).

[Soullos]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Soullos wrote:

This might be a stupid question but here goes: Do you need to build a Road first in order to convert that hex into a Farm? Seems like you do, based on the wording of the Farm description, but I want to make sure.

Nope. You don't need to build a road to build anything.

Roads just give you shorter overland travel times (per the Core Rules) and +1/4 bonus to Economy (per the kingdom rules).

That's even better. Thanks. :)

[Geeky Frignit]

Soullos wrote:

Jason Nelson wrote:

Soullos wrote:

This might be a stupid question but here goes: Do you need to build a Road first in order to convert that hex into a Farm? Seems like you do, based on the wording of the Farm description, but I want to make sure.

Nope. You don't need to build a road to build anything.

Roads just give you shorter overland travel times (per the Core Rules) and +1/4 bonus to Economy (per the kingdom rules).

That's even better. Thanks. :)

Actually, Step 5 of the Improvement Phase states:

pg 64; Rivers Run Red wrote:

You can develop any grassland or hill hex that contains roads into farmlands to help sustain your kingdom’s Consumption.

[Disenchanter]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Soullos wrote:

This might be a stupid question but here goes: Do you need to build a Road first in order to convert that hex into a Farm? Seems like you do, based on the wording of the Farm description, but I want to make sure.

Nope. You don't need to build a road to build anything.

Roads just give you shorter overland travel times (per the Core Rules) and +1/4 bonus to Economy (per the kingdom rules).

That isn't quite true.

According to Step 5 of the Improvement Phase, you can only convert grassland or hill hexes that contain roads.

Another ghost of preview rules filtering in?

EDIT:: Ninjaed.

[Randuril]

As far as the tenements go, I've added a house rule (no pun intended) that each new town/city gets a free tenement in calendar months 4-10 for their first year only, representing the temporary housing that newcomers would throw up. These do not cause unrest in the month that they are created, but will thereafter. This is only a boost of 7 BP per new town, but it gets them started a little faster.

[Jason Nelson]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Soullos wrote:

This might be a stupid question but here goes: Do you need to build a Road first in order to convert that hex into a Farm? Seems like you do, based on the wording of the Farm description, but I want to make sure.

Nope. You don't need to build a road to build anything.

Roads just give you shorter overland travel times (per the Core Rules) and +1/4 bonus to Economy (per the kingdom rules).

Umm, ignore everything that Jason Nelson guy says.

He doesn't know what the smurf he's talkin' about. :)

[Soullos]

What the smurf!? ...Oh well. ;) But seriously, thanks for the clarification guys.

EDIT: My avatar changed!? O.o

[Caineach]

Soullos wrote:

What the smurf!? ...Oh well. ;) But seriously, thanks for the clarification guys.

EDIT: My avatar changed!? O.o

Yes, if you say smurf, you get a random smurf. Even if its in a quote.

[thenovalord]

really

smurf

[ikki]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Alexander MacLeod wrote:

Has the idea of Shrines, Temples, and Cathedrals providing a +1, +2, and +4 bonus based on the alignment of the deity worshiped there (as per the Alignment section on page 55 of Rivers Run Red) come up yet?

This would differentiate a temple of Calistria (+2 loyalty, +2 stability) from a temple to Erastil (+2 economy, +2 loyalty) or a temple to Asmodeus (+4 economy).

Interesting idea. The specific effects of temples of different deities is the sort of thing I think would be good to see in a down-the-road expanded version of kingdom/city rules.

and then what would end up happening with opposed deities. Or if going for a single faith state..

[ikki]

Warforged Gardener wrote:

I think logging isn't an analogue to farming simply because of the difference in time it takes to replenish your "crop." Given the abstract nature of the BP rules, it might be too longterm to integrate tree farming and logging.

and tar, fuels of many types...

Also those hexes are 12 miles across.. thats over 50.000 acres.. each acre holding (over) a thousand trees. So even on a 240 month growing schedule, that is 200.000 TREES A MONTH that needs felling, treatment and transport one way or the other.
Quite a lot of job for just 250 workers ;)

Also might want to allow a single district in farms and forests.. mills etc.. without damaging the ability of the farm to produce to its fullest. Or half a district.

[Sleeping Giant]

Question on something that came up. I assumed that this was just like character building but it came up as part of the building process. Houses are pre-requisites for many of the buildings but Tenements can be replaced for houses at a cheaper cost. So the thought came up of using the tenements to get the building built. Say for example a Luxury Store. Then after the Luxury store is built they want to replace the tenements with a shop in order to make the whole block a shopping block.

Is there anything saying that they cant besides me refuting and fighting with them that would defeat the meaning behind the houses requirement?

[Level76mage]

I think that the tenements can ONLY be replaced by houses, a houserule I made on a different note is that Mansions can also replace households, to be the basic building block of a very nice district, rather than have houses to support the luxury store while the rest of the buildings are mansions and noble villas.

[Alexander MacLeod]

OK, my next question is, how much does it cost to build a Pathfinder Lodge in one of your cities, and what would such a building's effects be for Economy, Loyalty, Stability, and Unrest?

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Smurfing is cool.

[Scipion del Ferro]

Alexander MacLeod wrote:

OK, my next question is, how much does it cost to build a Pathfinder Lodge in one of your cities, and what would such a building's effects be for Economy, Loyalty, Stability, and Unrest?

Maybe just use the Guildhall?

[ikki]

...and im a little nervous to see where it leads..

The function of time and wealth.

Never mind the caster tower trick, build for half the price and sell the items, getting more BP than invested in addition to having the building.

No, this is about players crafting. And Time.

Also the recommended size for part 4 was 80.
11 first hexes = 11 months.
Next 16 Hexes = 8 Months
Another 24 hexes = 8 months

Now at 51 hexes and 27 months. Thats the absolute minimum time required, could take longer but no shorter.

Another 3 months & 12 hexes and then the whole varnhold, another 16 = 79 (purrfect?)

Now note the time: 30 months. A time wherein you would as an adventurer expect to have hit level 20 twice :D But this is not about that.

No, but caster crafting.
With no more xp costs, the gates of crafting are wide open. At 1000gp/day or a average profit of maybe a bit below 500gp/day. A bit more with stuff like crafter artisan feats.
30 months*30 days*500gp = 450.000 gp.

So maybe there was some problem in the sales, days spent on adventuring etc.. and a mere 200.000 was made. This could still represent either a pile of BP (50-100?) or some rather huge loads of magic and other forms of personal wealth.
But once the city wealth accumulates, those dc 50 become easy as nothing, sales of magic should become easier.. and thus profits really cannot be held down anymore.

So perhaps it would just be easiest to allow crafting to create BP straight away? 1 month of crafting = 5 BP.

[Scipion del Ferro]

Remember, you can only sell 1 item per city district per month with an economy check. If the item doesn't sell for more then 4,000gp then they don't get the full BP value for it.

I'm not familiar with where you are getting 1,000/gp a day with making items? If you are referring to making a magic item at that rate remember you have to pay half that cost, and by RAW you can only sell an item for half the total price so you wouldn't make a profit.

[Jason Nelson]

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

Remember, you can only sell 1 item per city district per month with an economy check. If the item doesn't sell for more then 4,000gp then they don't get the full BP value for it.

I'm not familiar with where you are getting 1,000/gp a day with making items? If you are referring to making a magic item at that rate remember you have to pay half that cost, and by RAW you can only sell an item for half the total price so you wouldn't make a profit.

Yep, making and selling = same amount of gp. It may seem silly, but it's an intentional game mechanic to prevent earning money sitting around crafting stuff and instead encouraging adventurers to go ADVENTURING to get their loot.

[Attila Tormási]

Me and my group just started our kingdom last session.
We built the kingdom and cities for 13 month and it really started to grow now. I have 2 questions:

1., Taxation seems really unimportant. The potential to get +4 for the Economy check is really not worth to get the penalty for Loyalty.
Is it only there to get a bonus to the check if you need it? I thought from the name that it is really important to tax if you need more income.

2., During our 13 month of kingdom play unrest did not was an issue. To be honest I think it is too easy to get the kingdom running if you fill all the leadership roles. Can you tell me some common mistakes, cause I really think we did something really wrong, or overlooked some rules.

Thanks

[Hargor]

Attila Tormási wrote:

Me and my group just started our kingdom last session.

We built the kingdom and cities for 13 month and it really started to grow now. I have 2 questions:

1., Taxation seems really unimportant. The potential to get +4 for the Economy check is really not worth to get the penalty for Loyalty.
Is it only there to get a bonus to the check if you need it? I thought from the name that it is really important to tax if you need more income.

2., During our 13 month of kingdom play unrest did not was an issue. To be honest I think it is too easy to get the kingdom running if you fill all the leadership roles. Can you tell me some common mistakes, cause I really think we did something really wrong, or overlooked some rules.

Thanks

Hi Attila,

1. You are right taxation as always is not as beneficial as it seems. I think a kingdom without a taxation edict should pay double upkeep because most of the investments in new infrastructure is paid by taxes.

2. Where did your group get those 5 to 8 loyal NPC rulers that you need to keep the kingdom running?

[Attila Tormási]

Hargor wrote:

Hi Attila,

1. You are right taxation as always is not as beneficial as it seems. I think a kingdom without a taxation edict should pay double upkeep because most of the investments in new infrastructure is paid by taxes.

2. Where did your group get those 5 to 8 loyal NPC rulers that you need to keep the kingdom running?

1., Well seems at first glance as a good idea, maybe we will try out.

2., We have met with several additional NPCs along the way, there is another storyline played beside the official Kingmaker, and the characters have strong backgrounds (family etc.) in Brevoy.

[ericthecleric]

Sorry if this has already been asked, but are there rules for developing mines in the kingdom, or was that an oversight? I just couldn't find anything relating to them.

[Justin Sluder]

Julian Neale wrote:

Sorry if this has already been asked, but are there rules for developing mines in the kingdom, or was that an oversight?

Officially, no. But Jason posted some stuff earlier in the thread.

[ericthecleric]

Thanks Justin. I'll look through the thread to see what he's written.

[Justin Sluder]

Julian Neale wrote:

Thanks Justin. I'll look through the thread to see what he's written.

I was mistaken. It was a different thread found HERE.

[Leonal]

Just a question I got from one of my players.

In the description for watchtower it says "..serves as a guard post and landmark."
Does that mean it gives a +1 to loyalty as a landmark in addition to the regular bonuses, or is it just flavor text?
If it does I assume it doesn't stack if there's already a landmark in the hex?

[ericthecleric]

(BTW, I see that a hex with a mine or whatever increases Economy by +1.)
Having read the kingdom building rules, here are some observations:
Seek to fill all the Leadership positions as soon as possible. (Rhetorical question) Who wants penalties for vacant slots?
It’s best to convert grassland to farmland as soon as possible, and to gain grasslands hexes first; however, forest hexes are good for building cities in (despite the additional +3 BP clearance cost), because that won’t diminish the potential number of grassland/farmland hexes.
Seek to build a good balance of hexes owned (ie. kingdom size) and bonuses to Economy, Loyalty, and Stability- but most especially Economy! For example, if you have 5 hexes (Command DC = 25), you’d need an Economy bonus of +15 to have a 50/50 chance of gaining extra BP as income, while if you have 80 hexes (Command DC = 100), you’d need an Economy bonus of +90 to have a 50/50 chance of gaining extra BP!
It would seem best to create cities with a theme, for example, ones that specialise in Economy, Loyalty, or Stability- but don’t go too far! For example, you could aim to build a Monument city (36 monuments for 216 BP and +108 Loyalty; or 34 monuments and one temple for 140 BP and +104 Loyalty), Graveyard city (36 graveyards for 144 BP and +36 Economy, +36 Loyalty; or 34 graveyards and one temple for 112 BP and +34 Economy, +34 Loyalty, +2 Stability), or Dump city (36 dumps for 144 BP and +36 Loyalty, +36 Stability; or 34 dumps and one town hall for 102 BP and +1 Economy, +35 Loyalty, +35 Stability), but such cities would be utterly bizarre and completely unrealistic! A city of Smithies (36 smithies for 216 BP and +36 Economy, +36 Stability) is arguably feasible- considering the location of the Stolen Lands between aggressive countries- but still a bit unlikely. Defense is important too, of course! So try to seek some level of realism; most towns would have one inn, a temple and some housing squares, for example. Good themes might be an entertainment town, nobles’ town, temple town, trade town, and so on, even if they might not be the best in terms of optimisation.

Here are some summaries that might help:

Reduction Cost Tiers

Spoiler:

[b]Arena (40 BP): A large public structure for competitions, demonstrations, team sports, or bloodsports. Halves cost of Garrison or Theater in same city; halves Consumption increase penalty for festival edicts; Stability +4; limit one per city.
___Garrison (28 BP/14 with Arena): A large building to house armies, train guards, and recruit militia. Halves cost of City Wall, Granary, and Jail in same city; Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.
______City Wall (8 BP/4 with Garrison): City walls do not occupy a city block— rather, purchasing a city wall fortifies one of a district’s four outer borders. A city wall cannot be built on a water border. Defense Modifier +4; Unrest –2.
______Granary (12 BP/6 with Garrison): A place to store grain and food. Loyalty +1,Stability +1.
______Jail (14 BP/7 with Garrison): A fortified structure for housing criminals. Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2
___Theater (24 BP/12 with Arena): A venue for providing entertainment such as plays, operas, concerts, and the like. Halves cost of Brothel, Park, and Tavern in same city; Economy +2, Stability +2.
______Brothel (4 BP/2 with Theater; must be adjacent to 1 house): A place to pay for companionship of any sort. Economy +1, Loyalty +2;Unrest +1.
______Park (4 BP/2 with Theater): A plot of land set aside for its natural beauty. Loyalty +1; Unrest –1.
______Tavern (12 BP/6 with Theater; must be adjacent to 1 house): An eatery or drinking establishment. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.

Cathedral (58 BP): The focal point of the city’s religion and spiritual leadership. Halves cost of Temple or Academy in same city; halves Consumption increase penalty for promotion edicts; 3 minor items, 2 medium items; Loyalty +4; Unrest –4; limit one per city.
___Academy (52 BP/26 with Cathedral): An institution of higher learning that can focus on any area of knowledge or education, including magic. Halves cost of Caster’s Tower, Library, and Magic Shop in same city; 3 minor items, 2 medium items; Economy +2, Loyalty +2.
______Caster’s Tower (30 BP/15 with Academy): The home and laboratory for a spellcaster. 3 minor items, 2 medium items; Economy +1, Loyalty +1. vv
______Library (6 BP/3 with Academy): A large building containing books, often presided over by a sage or other scholar. Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
______Magic Shop (68 BP/34 with Academy; must be adjacent to 2 houses): A shop that specializes in magic items and spells. City base value +2,000 gp; 4 minor items, 2 medium items, 1 major item; Economy +1.
___Temple (32 BP/16 with Cathedral): A large place of worship dedicated to a deity. Halves cost of Graveyard, Monument, and Shrine in same city; 2 minor items; Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.
______Graveyard (4 BP/2 with Temple): A plot of land to honor and bury the dead. Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
______Monument (6 BP/3 with Temple): A monument can be a statue of a city founder, a bell tower, a large tomb, or a public display of art. Loyalty +3; Unrest –1.
______Shrine (8 BP/4 with Temple): A small shrine or similar holy site. 1 minor item; Loyalty +1; Unrest –1.

Castle (54 BP): The home of the city’s leader or the heart of its defenses. Halves cost of Noble Villa or Town Hall in same city; Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Defense Modifier +8;Unrest –4; limit one per city.
___Noble Villa (24 BP/12 with Castle): A sprawling manor with luxurious grounds that houses a noble. Halves cost of Exotic Craftsman, Luxury Store, and Mansion in same city; Economy +1, Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
______Exotic Craftsman (10 BP/5 with Noble Villa; must be adjacent to 1 house): The workshop and home of an exotic craftsman, such as a creator of magic items, a tinker, a fireworks maker, or a glassblower. 1 minor item; Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
______Luxury Store (28 BP/14 with Noble Villa; must be adjacent to 1 house): A shop that specializes in expensive wares and luxuries. City base value +2,000 gp; 2 minor items; Economy +1.
______Mansion (10 BP/5 with Noble Villa): A single huge manor housing a rich family and its servants. Stability +1.
___Town Hall (22 BP/11 with Castle): A public venue for town meetings and repository for town records. Halves cost of Barracks, Dump, and Watchtower in same city; Economy +1, Loyalty +1,Stability +1.
______Barracks (12 BP/6 with Town Hall): A building to house city guards, militia, and military forces. Defense Modifier +2; Unrest –1.
______Dump (4 BP/2 with Town Hall): A centralized place to dispose of refuse. Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
______Watchtower (6 BP/3 with Town Hall): A tall structure that serves as a guard post and landmark. +1 Stability; +2 Defense Modifier;Unrest –1.

Waterfront (90 BP; must be adjacent to a water border): A port for arrival and departure when traveling by water, facilities for building ships, and a center of commerce. City base value +4,000 gp; 3 minor items, 2 medium items, 1 major item; halves cost of Guildhall and Market in same city, halves Loyalty penalty for tax edicts; Economy +4; limit one per city.
___Guildhall (34 BP/17 with Waterfront; must be adjacent to 1 house): A large building that serves as headquarters for a guild or similar organization. City base value +1,000 gp; halves cost of Pier, Stable, and Tradesman in same city; Economy +2, Loyalty +2.
______Piers (16 BP/8 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to a water border): Warehouses and workshops for docking ships and handling cargo and passengers. City base value +1,000 gp; +1 Economy, +1 Stability.
______Stable (10 BP/5 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to 1 house): A structure for housing or selling horses and other mounts. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
______Tradesman (10 BP/5 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to 1 house): A shopfront for a tradesman, such as a baker, butcher, candle maker, cooper, or rope maker. City base value +500 gp; +1 Economy, +1 Stability.
___Market (48 BP/24 with Waterfront; must be adjacent to 2 houses): An open area for mercantile pursuits, traveling merchants, and bargain hunters. City base value +2,000 gp; halves cost of Black Market, Inn, and Shop in same city; 2 minor items; Economy +2, Stability +2.
______Black Market (50 BP/25 with Market; must be adjacent to 2 houses): A number of shops with secret and usually illegal or dangerous wares. City base value +2,000; 2 minor items, 1medium item, 1 major item; Economy +2, Stability +1; Unrest +1.
______Inn (10 BP/5 with Market; must be adjacent to 1 house): A place for visitors to spend the night. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
______Shop (8 BP/4 with Market; must be adjacent to 1 house): A general store. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1.

Buildings That Have No Reductions In BP Cost!!

Spoiler:

Alchemist (18 BP; must be adjacent to 1 house): The laboratory and home of a creator of potions, poisons, and alchemical items. City base value +1,000 gp; 1 minor item; Economy +1.
Arena (40 BP): A large public structure for competitions, demonstrations, team sports, or bloodsports. Halves cost of Garrison or Theater in same city; halves Consumption increase penalty for festival edicts; Stability +4; limit one per city.
Brewery (6 BP): A building for beermaking, winemaking, or similar use. Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Castle (54 BP): The home of the city’s leader or the heart of its defenses. Halves cost of Noble Villa or Town Hall in same city; Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Defense Modifier +8;Unrest –4; limit one per city.
Cathedral (58 BP): The focal point of the city’s religion and spiritual leadership. Halves cost of Temple or Academy in same city; halves Consumption increase penalty for promotion edicts; 3 minor items, 2 medium items; Loyalty +4; Unrest –4; limit one per city.
Herbalist (10 BP; must be adjacent to 1 house): The workshop and home of a gardener, healer, poisoner, or creator of potions. 1 minor item; Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
House (3 BP): A number of mid-sized houses for citizens. Houses serve as prerequisites for many other buildings. The first house you build during any Improvement Phase does not count against the total number of buildings you can build during the phase. Unrest –1.
Mill (6 BP; must be next to a water border): A building used to cut lumber or grind grain. Economy +1, Stability +1.
Smith (6 BP): An armor smith, blacksmith, or weapon smith. Economy +1, Stability +1.
Tannery (6 BP; cannot be adjacent to a house): A structure that prepares hides and leather. Economy +1, Stability +1.
Tenement (1 BP): A staggering number of low-rent, cheap housing units. Tenements count as houses for the purpose of fulfilling building requirements, but building too many tenements can increase a kingdom’s Unrest quickly. You can build a house over an existing tenement for 2 BP. Unrest +2.
Waterfront (90 BP; must be adjacent to a water border): A port for arrival and departure when traveling by water, facilities for building ships, and a center of commerce. City base value +4,000 gp; 3 minor items, 2 medium items, 1 major item; halves cost of Guildhall and Market in same city, halves Loyalty penalty for tax edicts; Economy +4; limit one per city.

Buildings That Increase Defense

Spoiler:

Barracks (12 BP/6 with Town Hall): A building to house city guards, militia, and military forces. Defense Modifier +2; Unrest –1.
Castle (54 BP): The home of the city’s leader or the heart of its defenses. Halves cost of Noble Villa or Town Hall in same city; Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Defense Modifier +8;Unrest –4; limit one per city.
City Wall (8 BP/4 with Garrison): City walls do not occupy a city block— rather, purchasing a city wall fortifies one of a district’s four outer borders. A city wall cannot be built on a water border. Defense Modifier +4; Unrest –2.
Watchtower (6 BP/3 with Town Hall): A tall structure that serves as a guard post and landmark. +1 Stability; +2 Defense Modifier;Unrest –1.

Buildings That Increase City Base Value

Spoiler:

Alchemist (18 BP; must be adjacent to 1 house): The laboratory and home of a creator of potions, poisons, and alchemical items. City base value +1,000 gp; 1 minor item; Economy +1.
Black Market (50 BP/25 with Market; must be adjacent to 2 houses): A number of shops with secret and usually illegal or dangerous wares. City base value +2,000; 2 minor items, 1medium item, 1 major item; Economy +2, Stability +1; Unrest +1.
Guildhall (34 BP/17 with Waterfront; must be adjacent to 1 house): A large building that serves as headquarters for a guild or similar organization. City base value +1,000 gp; halves cost of Pier, Stable, and Tradesman in same city; Economy +2, Loyalty +2.
Inn (10 BP/5 with Market; must be adjacent to 1 house): A place for visitors to spend the night. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Luxury Store (28 BP/14 with Noble Villa; must be adjacent to 1 house): A shop that specializes in expensive wares and luxuries. City base value +2,000 gp; 2 minor items; Economy +1.
Magic Shop (68 BP/34 with Academy; must be adjacent to 2 houses): A shop that specializes in magic items and spells. City base value +2,000 gp; 4 minor items, 2 medium items, 1 major item; Economy +1.
Market (48 BP/24 with Waterfront; must be adjacent to 2 houses): An open area for mercantile pursuits, traveling merchants, and bargain hunters. City base value +2,000 gp; halves cost of Black Market, Inn, and Shop in same city; 2 minor items; Economy +2, Stability +2.
Piers (16 BP/8 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to a water border): Warehouses and workshops for docking ships and handling cargo and passengers. City base value +1,000 gp; +1 Economy, +1 Stability.
Shop (8 BP/4 with Market; must be adjacent to 1 house): A general store. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1.
Stable (10 BP/5 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to 1 house): A structure for housing or selling horses and other mounts. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Tavern (12 BP/6 with Theater; must be adjacent to 1 house): An eatery or drinking establishment. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Tradesman (10 BP/5 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to 1 house): A shopfront for a tradesman, such as a baker, butcher, candle maker, cooper, or rope maker. City base value +500 gp; +1 Economy, +1 Stability.
Waterfront (90 BP; must be adjacent to a water border): A port for arrival and departure when traveling by water, facilities for building ships, and a center of commerce. City base value +4,000 gp; 3 minor items, 2 medium items, 1 major item; halves cost of Guildhall and Market in same city, halves Loyalty penalty for tax edicts; Economy +4; limit one per city.

Buildings That Increase Economy

Spoiler:

Academy (52 BP/26 with Cathedral): An institution of higher learning that can focus on any area of knowledge or education, including magic. Halves cost of Caster’s Tower, Library, and Magic Shop in same city; 3 minor items, 2 medium items; Economy +2, Loyalty +2.
Alchemist (18 BP; must be adjacent to 1 house): The laboratory and home of a creator of potions, poisons, and alchemical items. City base value +1,000 gp; 1 minor item; Economy +1.
Black Market (50 BP/25 with Market; must be adjacent to 2 houses): A number of shops with secret and usually illegal or dangerous wares. City base value +2,000; 2 minor items, 1medium item, 1 major item; Economy +2, Stability +1; Unrest +1.
Brothel (4 BP/2 with Theater; must be adjacent to 1 house): A place to pay for companionship of any sort. Economy +1, Loyalty +2; Unrest +1.
Caster’s Tower (30 BP/15 with Academy): The home and laboratory for a spellcaster. 3 minor items, 2 medium items; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Castle (54 BP): The home of the city’s leader or the heart of its defenses. Halves cost of Noble Villa or Town Hall in same city; Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Defense Modifier +8;Unrest –4; limit one per city.
Graveyard (4 BP/2 with Temple): A plot of land to honor and bury the dead. Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Guildhall (34 BP/17 with Waterfront; must be adjacent to 1 house): A large building that serves as headquarters for a guild or similar organization. City base value +1,000 gp; halves cost of Pier, Stable, and Tradesman in same city; Economy +2, Loyalty +2.
Inn (10 BP/5 with Market; must be adjacent to 1 house): A place for visitors to spend the night. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Library (6 BP/3 with Academy): A large building containing books, often presided over by a sage or other scholar. Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Luxury Store (28 BP/14 with Noble Villa; must be adjacent to 1 house): A shop that specializes in expensive wares and luxuries. City base value +2,000 gp; 2 minor items; Economy +1.
Magic Shop (68 BP/34 with Academy; must be adjacent to 2 houses): A shop that specializes in magic items and spells. City base value +2,000 gp; 4 minor items, 2 medium items, 1 major item; Economy +1.
Market (48 BP/24 with Waterfront; must be adjacent to 2 houses): An open area for mercantile pursuits, traveling merchants, and bargain hunters. City base value +2,000 gp; halves cost of Black Market, Inn, and Shop in same city; 2 minor items; Economy +2, Stability +2.
Mill (6 BP; must be next to a water border): A building used to cut lumber or grind grain. Economy +1, Stability +1.
Noble Villa (24 BP/12 with Castle): A sprawling manor with luxurious grounds that houses a noble. Halves cost of Exotic Craftsman, Luxury Store, and Mansion in same city; Economy +1, Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Piers (16 BP/8 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to a water border): Warehouses and workshops for docking ships and handling cargo and passengers. City base value +1,000 gp; +1 Economy, +1 Stability.
Shop (8 BP/4 with Market; must be adjacent to 1 house): A general store. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1.
Smith (6 BP): An armor smith, blacksmith, or weapon smith. Economy +1, Stability +1.
Stable (10 BP/5 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to 1 house): A structure for housing or selling horses and other mounts. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Tannery (6 BP; cannot be adjacent to a house): A structure that prepares hides and leather. Economy +1, Stability +1.
Tavern (12 BP/6 with Theater; must be adjacent to 1 house): An eatery or drinking establishment. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Theater (24 BP/12 with Arena): A venue for providing entertainment such as plays, operas, concerts, and the like. Halves cost of Brothel, Park, and Tavern in same city; Economy +2, Stability +2.
Town Hall (22 BP/11 with Castle): A public venue for town meetings and repository for town records. Halves cost of Barracks, Dump, and Watchtower in same city; Economy +1, Loyalty +1,Stability +1.
Tradesman (10 BP/5 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to 1 house): A shopfront for a tradesman, such as a baker, butcher, candle maker, cooper, or rope maker. City base value +500 gp; +1 Economy, +1 Stability.
Waterfront (90 BP; must be adjacent to a water border): A port for arrival and departure when traveling by water, facilities for building ships, and a center of commerce. City base value +4,000 gp; 3 minor items, 2 medium items, 1 major item; halves cost of Guildhall and Market in same city, halves Loyalty penalty for tax edicts; Economy +4; limit one per city.

Buildings That Increase Loyalty

Spoiler:

Academy (52 BP/26 with Cathedral): An institution of higher learning that can focus on any area of knowledge or education, including magic. Halves cost of Caster’s Tower, Library, and Magic Shop in same city; 3 minor items, 2 medium items; Economy +2, Loyalty +2.
Brewery (6 BP): A building for beermaking, winemaking, or similar use. Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Brothel (4 BP/2 with Theater; must be adjacent to 1 house): A place to pay for companionship of any sort. Economy +1, Loyalty +2;Unrest +1.
Caster’s Tower (30 BP/15 with Academy): The home and laboratory for a spellcaster. 3 minor items, 2 medium items; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Castle (54 BP): The home of the city’s leader or the heart of its defenses. Halves cost of Noble Villa or Town Hall in same city; Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Defense Modifier +8;Unrest –4; limit one per city.
Cathedral (58 BP): The focal point of the city’s religion and spiritual leadership. Halves cost of Temple or Academy in same city; halves Consumption increase penalty for promotion edicts; 3 minor items, 2 medium items; Loyalty +4; Unrest –4; limit one per city.
Dump (4 BP/2 with Town Hall): A centralized place to dispose of refuse. Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Exotic Craftsman (10 BP/5 with Noble Villa; must be adjacent to 1 house): The workshop and home of an exotic craftsman, such as a creator of magic items, a tinker, a fireworks maker, or a glassblower. 1 minor item; Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Garrison (28 BP/14 with Arena): A large building to house armies, train guards, and recruit militia. Halves cost of City Wall, Granary, and Jail in same city; Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.
Granary (12 BP/6 with Garrison): A place to store grain and food. Loyalty +1,Stability +1.
Graveyard (4 BP/2 with Temple): A plot of land to honor and bury the dead. Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Guildhall (34 BP/17 with Waterfront; must be adjacent to 1 house): A large building that serves as headquarters for a guild or similar organization. City base value +1,000 gp; halves cost of Pier, Stable, and Tradesman in same city; Economy +2, Loyalty +2.
Herbalist (10 BP; must be adjacent to 1 house): The workshop and home of a gardener, healer, poisoner, or creator of potions. 1 minor item; Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Inn (10 BP/5 with Market; must be adjacent to 1 house): A place for visitors to spend the night. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Jail (14 BP/7 with Garrison): A fortified structure for housing criminals. Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.
Library (6 BP/3 with Academy): A large building containing books, often presided over by a sage or other scholar. Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Monument (6 BP/3 with Temple): A monument can be a statue of a city founder, a bell tower, a large tomb, or a public display of art. Loyalty +3; Unrest –1.
Noble Villa (24 BP/12 with Castle): A sprawling manor with luxurious grounds that houses a noble. Halves cost of Exotic Craftsman, Luxury Store, and Mansion in same city; Economy +1, Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Park (4 BP/2 with Theater): A plot of land set aside for its natural beauty. Loyalty +1; Unrest –1.
Shrine (8 BP/4 with Temple): A small shrine or similar holy site. 1 minor item; Loyalty +1; Unrest –1.
Smith (6 BP): An armor smith, blacksmith, or weapon smith. Economy +1, Stability +1.
Stable (10 BP/5 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to 1 house): A structure for housing or selling horses and other mounts. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Tavern (12 BP/6 with Theater; must be adjacent to 1 house): An eatery or drinking establishment. City base value +500 gp; Economy +1, Loyalty +1.
Temple (32 BP/16 with Cathedral): A large place of worship dedicated to a deity. Halves cost of Graveyard, Monument, and Shrine in same city; 2 minor items; Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.
Town Hall (22 BP/11 with Castle): A public venue for town meetings and repository for town records. Halves cost of Barracks, Dump, and Watchtower in same city; Economy +1, Loyalty +1,Stability +1.

Buildings That Increase Stability

Spoiler:

Arena (40 BP): A large public structure for competitions, demonstrations, team sports, or bloodsports. Halves cost of Garrison or Theater in same city; halves Consumption increase penalty for festival edicts; Stability +4; limit one per city.
Black Market (50 BP/25 with Market; must be adjacent to 2 houses): A number of shops with secret and usually illegal or dangerous wares. City base value +2,000; 2 minor items, 1medium item, 1 major item; Economy +2, Stability +1; Unrest +1.
Brewery (6 BP): A building for beermaking, winemaking, or similar use. Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Castle (54 BP): The home of the city’s leader or the heart of its defenses. Halves cost of Noble Villa or Town Hall in same city; Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Defense Modifier +8;Unrest –4; limit one per city.
Dump (4 BP/2 with Town Hall): A centralized place to dispose of refuse. Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Exotic Craftsman (10 BP/5 with Noble Villa; must be adjacent to 1 house): The workshop and home of an exotic craftsman, such as a creator of magic items, a tinker, a fireworks maker, or a glassblower. 1 minor item; Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Garrison (28 BP/14 with Arena): A large building to house armies, train guards, and recruit militia. Halves cost of City Wall, Granary, and Jail in same city; Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.
Granary (12 BP/6 with Garrison): A place to store grain and food. Loyalty +1,Stability +1.
Herbalist (10 BP; must be adjacent to 1 house): The workshop and home of a gardener, healer, poisoner, or creator of potions. 1 minor item; Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Jail (14 BP/7 with Garrison): A fortified structure for housing criminals. Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.
Mansion (10 BP/5 with Noble Villa): A single huge manor housing a rich family and its servants. Stability +1.
Market (48 BP/24 with Waterfront; must be adjacent to 2 houses): An open area for mercantile pursuits, traveling merchants, and bargain hunters. City base value +2,000 gp; halves cost of Black Market, Inn, and Shop in same city; 2 minor items; Economy +2, Stability +2.
Mill (6 BP; must be next to a water border): A building used to cut lumber or grind grain. Economy +1, Stability +1.
Noble Villa (24 BP/12 with Castle): A sprawling manor with luxurious grounds that houses a noble. Halves cost of Exotic Craftsman, Luxury Store, and Mansion in same city; Economy +1, Loyalty +1, Stability +1.
Piers (16 BP/8 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to a water border): Warehouses and workshops for docking ships and handling cargo and passengers. City base value +1,000 gp; +1 Economy, +1 Stability.
Smith (6 BP): An armor smith, blacksmith, or weapon smith. [i]Economy +1, Stability +1.
Tannery (6 BP; cannot be adjacent to a house): A structure that prepares hides and leather. Economy +1, Stability +1.
Temple (32 BP/16 with Cathedral): A large place of worship dedicated to a deity. Halves cost of Graveyard, Monument, and Shrine in same city; 2 minor items; Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.
Theater (24 BP/12 with Arena): A venue for providing entertainment such as plays, operas, concerts, and the like. Halves cost of Brothel, Park, and Tavern in same city; Economy +2, Stability +2.
Town Hall (22 BP/11 with Castle): A public venue for town meetings and repository for town records. Halves cost of Barracks, Dump, and Watchtower in same city; Economy +1, Loyalty +1,Stability +1.
Tradesman (10 BP/5 with Guildhall; must be adjacent to 1 house): A shopfront for a tradesman, such as a baker, butcher, candle maker, cooper, or rope maker. City base value +500 gp; +1 Economy, +1 Stability.
Watchtower (6 BP/3 with Town Hall): A tall structure that serves as a guard post and landmark. +1 Stability; +2 Defense Modifier;Unrest –1.

[Jagyr Ebonwood]

Leonal wrote:

Just a question I got from one of my players.

In the description for watchtower it says "..serves as a guard post and landmark."
Does that mean it gives a +1 to loyalty as a landmark in addition to the regular bonuses, or is it just flavor text?
If it does I assume it doesn't stack if there's already a landmark in the hex?

No, it's just flavor text. The section talking about landmarks refers to pre-existing features that would already be in a hex, such as an impressive natural feature like the tree the mites live under in Kingmaker, or New Hampshire's Old Man of the Mountain (though it fell apart several years ago, so New Hampshire lost a point of Loyalty :-p ).

In my current campaign (using the kingdom rules, but not Kingmaker plot) the PCs are thinking of building a bridge across a river. Now, at that particular site, there used to be a grand dwarven bridge that was the pride of the region, but it was destroyed in a massive flood over 100 years ago. The party could build a standard bridge as per the rules, but I'm also allowing them to rebuild the dwarven bridge if they want to. I don't have exact numbers on it yet, but I decided it would take at least a year to complete, and would require a lot of BP, but it would count as a Landmark and give a +1 Loyalty.

[Garreth Baldwin]

So I know James has already talked about this but I'm still confused about Unrest from buildings. My example is a Black Market which adds +1 Unrest. I see three ways this could go:

1. Build a Black Market, it adds +1 Unrest for that month. The next month everyone is okay with it and Unrest resets to 0 every month.

2. Build a Back Market, it increases the Unrest by +1 from then on, relying on other things to balance out the Unrest.

3. Build a Black Market, it adds 1 Unrest per a month from then one. (I know this isn't how it should work, if Unrest were cumulative it would be unbeatable, all kingdoms would fall into chaos.)

Can anyone help me out? I think that option 2 is the right way to go, but I'm not sure and we're about to start kingdom building.

[Kvantum]

As far as I understand it #2 is the correct interpretation. That's how I'd rule it, anyway.

You could just build a Park with it to offset things.

[Geeky Frignit]

Garreth Baldwin wrote:

So I know James has already talked about this but I'm still confused about Unrest from buildings. My example is a Black Market which adds +1 Unrest. I see three ways this could go:

1. Build a Black Market, it adds +1 Unrest for that month. The next month everyone is okay with it and Unrest resets to 0 every month.

2. Build a Back Market, it increases the Unrest by +1 from then on, relying on other things to balance out the Unrest.

3. Build a Black Market, it adds 1 Unrest per a month from then one. (I know this isn't how it should work, if Unrest were cumulative it would be unbeatable, all kingdoms would fall into chaos.)

Can anyone help me out? I think that option 2 is the right way to go, but I'm not sure and we're about to start kingdom building.

It is actually #1. It only adds Unrest on the month it is built.

pg. 58 states "If a building affects Unrest, it does so only once, when it is first constructed." It's the last sentence of the first paragraph under the Building Types heading. Unrest does not automatically reset to 0 at the beginning of each month either. It remains (as a penalty to all rolls) until it is removed by one of the various methods of removing it (i.e. Royal Assassin or unrest clearing building).

[vagrant-poet]

Geeky Frignit wrote:

Garreth Baldwin wrote:

So I know James has already talked about this but I'm still confused about Unrest from buildings. My example is a Black Market which adds +1 Unrest. I see three ways this could go:

1. Build a Black Market, it adds +1 Unrest for that month. The next month everyone is okay with it and Unrest resets to 0 every month.

2. Build a Back Market, it increases the Unrest by +1 from then on, relying on other things to balance out the Unrest.

3. Build a Black Market, it adds 1 Unrest per a month from then one. (I know this isn't how it should work, if Unrest were cumulative it would be unbeatable, all kingdoms would fall into chaos.)

Can anyone help me out? I think that option 2 is the right way to go, but I'm not sure and we're about to start kingdom building.

It is actually #1. It only adds Unrest on the month it is built.

pg. 58 states "If a building affects Unrest, it does so only once, when it is first constructed." It's the last sentence of the first paragraph under the Building Types heading. Unrest does not automatically reset to 0 at the beginning of each month either. It remains (as a penalty to all rolls) until it is removed by one of the various methods of removing it (i.e. Royal Assassin or unrest clearing building).

I don't think so, #1 implies that the gained unrest dissappears. Think of the unrest gained like hp damage. A one time increase that stays until healed, ala Stability check, that unrest doesn't go away on its own, but it is only inflicted upon the buildings construction and never again for that specific building, though other Black Markets will cause the same upon completion.

[underling]

I had a thought about city population and the discrepancies we see in Varnhold, Tatzleford and Fort Drelev. I understand the official position James put out that population doesn't matter, but if your players are like mine, they will expect logic and consistency in the way the city rules model settlements. So here is my quick and dirty fix:

The 250 * #bulding squares is a maximum population for that settlement. Population from the construction of new buildings arrives over the course of a year or so, giving consistent growth over time. Morale and other events (BBEGs, wars, monster attacks, etc...) can stunt or even reverse that growth. I don't really think these growth numbers need to be quantified, but I guess you could if you wanted to.

So, Varnhold has such a low population because it was almost destroyed. Fort Drelev is small (and shrinking ) because of extreme mismanagement. Tatzleford is small because it is new. As long as management is well run, it should be growing swiftly to its potential size over the next 12 kingdom turns.

Thoughts?

[Caineach]

underling wrote:

I had a thought about city population and the discrepancies we see in Varnhold, Tatzleford and Fort Drelev. I understand the official position James put out that population doesn't matter, but if your players are like mine, they will expect logic and consistency in the way the city rules model settlements. So here is my quick and dirty fix:

The 250 * #bulding squares is a maximum population for that settlement. Population from the construction of new buildings arrives over the course of a year or so, giving consistent growth over time. Morale and other events (BBEGs, wars, monster attacks, etc...) can stunt or even reverse that growth. I don't really think these growth numbers need to be quantified, but I guess you could if you wanted to.

So, Varnhold has such a low population because it was almost destroyed. Fort Drelev is small (and shrinking ) because of extreme mismanagement. Tatzleford is small because it is new. As long as management is well run, it should be growing swiftly to its potential size over the next 12 kingdom turns.

Thoughts?

I think this works well, and was considering something like it myself before deciding that quantifying it would be way too much of a hassle. I was considering actually having mechanical effects for population though, and if you didn't have the population to fill out a building it wouldn't work at full capacity. It got overly complicated way too quickly, but I like the concept still. I am going to be describing Rostland as actively pushing settlement, once my players hit kingdom building. That is why the population grows so rapidly.

[underling]

Caineach wrote:

underling wrote:

I had a thought about city population and the discrepancies we see in Varnhold, Tatzleford and Fort Drelev. I understand the official position James put out that population doesn't matter, but if your players are like mine, they will expect logic and consistency in the way the city rules model settlements. So here is my quick and dirty fix:

The 250 * #bulding squares is a maximum population for that settlement. Population from the construction of new buildings arrives over the course of a year or so, giving consistent growth over time. Morale and other events (BBEGs, wars, monster attacks, etc...) can stunt or even reverse that growth. I don't really think these growth numbers need to be quantified, but I guess you could if you wanted to.

So, Varnhold has such a low population because it was almost destroyed. Fort Drelev is small (and shrinking ) because of extreme mismanagement. Tatzleford is small because it is new. As long as management is well run, it should be growing swiftly to its potential size over the next 12 kingdom turns.

Thoughts?

I think this works well, and was considering something like it myself before deciding that quantifying it would be way too much of a hassle. I was considering actually having mechanical effects for population though, and if you didn't have the population to fill out a building it wouldn't work at full capacity. It got overly complicated way too quickly, but I like the concept still. I am going to be describing Rostland as actively pushing settlement, once my players hit kingdom building. That is why the population grows so rapidly.

I envisioned having the building take full effect as soon as it was built, but have the population grow between 5-10% (roll a d6?) of potential max each month until max size is reached. Some cities will continue to grow indefinately as the PCs keep filling squares, but others will be abandoned once they reach a certain size and purpose.

So Varnhold could have almost 4750 people due to its 19 buildings. Once stabilized, it would grow between 235-475 people a month barring negative events. that would take somewhere between 10 and 20 months to reach full potential size. Not too quick, but would bring the oddball settlements back in line with the rules.

I think this would be simple enough to use and more realistic to boot.

[Garreth Baldwin]

So my players started talking about building a city the other night and the party realized something. They want a city in the trees. They'd like to be able to build in forest squares but the druid is very very against clearing part of the forest for a city. Since the prebuilt character include a druid I was wondering if any at Paizo had thought about this? Any chance that we may eventually get rules for treetop villages and underground strongholds? For right now I'm considering just doubling the cost of all the buildings but it only cost half as much time and BP to clear a forest hex for the city. Does this sound reasonable to anyone? I was thinking it may also increase their defense value, but there will be some buildings that just can't be build, like city walls.

[Caineach]

Garreth Baldwin wrote:

So my players started talking about building a city the other night and the party realized something. They want a city in the trees. They'd like to be able to build in forest squares but the druid is very very against clearing part of the forest for a city. Since the prebuilt character include a druid I was wondering if any at Paizo had thought about this? Any chance that we may eventually get rules for treetop villages and underground strongholds? For right now I'm considering just doubling the cost of all the buildings but it only cost half as much time and BP to clear a forest hex for the city. Does this sound reasonable to anyone? I was thinking it may also increase their defense value, but there will be some buildings that just can't be build, like city walls.

I love the idea. House rule away. What your thinking sounds fun. I recommend using the rules fast and loose to get the story you and your players want.

[James Jacobs]

Garreth Baldwin wrote:

So my players started talking about building a city the other night and the party realized something. They want a city in the trees. They'd like to be able to build in forest squares but the druid is very very against clearing part of the forest for a city. Since the prebuilt character include a druid I was wondering if any at Paizo had thought about this? Any chance that we may eventually get rules for treetop villages and underground strongholds? For right now I'm considering just doubling the cost of all the buildings but it only cost half as much time and BP to clear a forest hex for the city. Does this sound reasonable to anyone? I was thinking it may also increase their defense value, but there will be some buildings that just can't be build, like city walls.

The kingdom building rules had to fit in 10 or so pages. There's NO WAY we could encompass every possible situation, so we had to settle for just presenting the basics. If you want to build a treehouse city... go for it! If you want to build a floating city in a lake, go for it! If you want a theocracy in a desert, go for it! Just because we didn't mention a possibility in the article doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means we didn't have room to cover every possible option. That kind of thing would require a huge book of its own.

[cappadocius]

James Jacobs wrote:

That kind of thing would require a huge book of its own.

2nd Quarter 2011?

[deinol]

cappadocius wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

That kind of thing would require a huge book of its own.

2nd Quarter 2011?

Ultimate Kingdoms?

War and the King?
Nation Mastery Guide?
Advanced Kingdom Guide?

I've already signed up for this book. ;)

[Kvantum]

cappadocius wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

That kind of thing would require a huge book of its own.

2nd Quarter 2011?

Sadly, I think it'll be waiting until 2012. The hardbacks for 2011 are pretty much set. Ultimate Magic (and then probably Ultimate Combat), Bestiary III, and World Guide: Tian Xia.

But yes, if anything put into Pathfinder as just a trial run deserves its own book, it is absolutely the domain and city rules.

[Justin Franklin]

Kvantum wrote:

cappadocius wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

That kind of thing would require a huge book of its own.

2nd Quarter 2011?

Sadly, I think it'll be waiting until 2012. The hardbacks for 2011 are pretty much set. Ultimate Magic (and then probably Ultimate Combat), Bestiary III, and World Guide: Tian Xia.

But yes, if anything put into Pathfinder as just a trial run deserves its own book, it is absolutely the domain and city rules.

Well actually since it is 3 or 4 hardcover core rulebooks per year we are missing at least one (as Tian Xia willl be in the Campaign Setting line). Also they have said that there will be one player's book (Ultimate Magic) one monster book (Bestiary 3) and one DM book (?).

[Garreth Baldwin]

James Jacobs wrote:

The kingdom building rules had to fit in 10 or so pages. There's NO WAY we could encompass every possible situation, so we had to settle for just presenting the basics. If you want to build a treehouse city... go for it! If you want to build a floating city in a lake, go for it! If you want a theocracy in a desert, go for it! Just because we didn't mention a possibility in the article doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means we didn't have room to cover every possible option. That kind of thing would require a huge book of its own.

I realize you have to worry about spacing and word count and everything, I just wanted to put my 2 cents in and ask that if you ever do a rulebook for kingdom building to consider those things. As is I LOVE the kingdom building rules you came up with and the Kingmaker game in general. Its been great for my group as its something never really done before in a prebuilt game. Thanks for this awesome new way to look at adventuring.