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Just wondering what GMs who are playing with 6 players are doing to adjust the AP so that it is still challenging and will reward the correct XP for a party this large. My first thought was to max out HP on some of the early encounters (and possibly throw in another bandit or two). I'm also considering throwing in more "random" encounters. Yet another thought is to have 15 point buy as opposed to the 20 point I was originally planning on.
I'm still new to GMing and want this to be an enjoyable AP for everyone (ie.-I don't want all the encounters to get steamrolled) so any new thoughts or comments on what I'm planning on trying out would be appreciated.
The Core rules talks about scaling in i think the section on encounter design (I don't have my Core Rules handy), In general, tho, I'd say either increase the number of creatures by one or two, or use the advancement rules for monsters in the Bestiary. I'd add two more bandits to the first encounter, for example, and advance the tazylwyrm. Maybe add a level or two to the npcs.
Err on the side of caution until you get a handle on the math behind crs and stuff.
Well, it's been cited a number of times that a simple 50% increase in hp seems to work well for parties of 6. The biggest advantage of this is that at low levels, enemies are less likely to be "one-shotted" by PCs.
I'm also a big fan of the 15 point buy system. If you notice, the pregen characters are built with 15 points and there are only 4 of them. Given the increase in ability scores, characters will easily have an 18 by 4th level and can even have one (or two!) at first level if they're willing to take some penalties elsewhere.
IMO, the worst thing you can do is let the players get too powerful too quickly (like during character generation). It forces you to do more and more work as time goes on trying to balance the encounters. This AP in particular requires that players use more than brute force to solve problems. By that I mean - if they try to simply rush in and kill everything, they're likely to fail. If characters are powerful enough to kill all opposition, the story loses some of its charm.
I've been running for seven players.
To the planned encounters, here is what I've been planning so far:
B. Adding an ogre despoiling barbarian cairns at this hex. One of my players had a back story based on ogres killing his hometown, so I'm linking them in as a later threat with a tribe of ogres led by an ogre mage.
E. I added two giant centipedes eating the trapper. Didn't really throw too much at the players. Probably could've been a bit stronger
G. Added 2 kobolds to the radish patch. It was still pretty easy, but they managed to bloody some one or two players.
I. Doubling the frogs here. Might max their hit points too.
J. Giving the bear full hit points and placing an assassin vine at the temple.
L. Adding a cave fisher or two at the Gold Mine. Smart players might use them to get some silk rope and not kill them.
N. 3 hobgoblin fighters at the statue. The players have already encountered two hobgoblins and a worg working together. I'm incorporating a hobgoblin tribe into the Rivers Run Red part of my campaign.
P. Including an extra boar with Tuskgutter
R. Putting a slightly modified centipede swarm at the opening of the old sycamore.
U. Max hit points on the tatzylwyrms.
W. Adding an extra spider swarm at the fangberry thicket.
I haven't modded too much with the kobold den or the mite den. I'll probably max hit points on the creatures there. I'll also be adding another bandit lieutenant to the stag lord's camp and some extra bandits.
My players encountered the remaining four bandits from the Thorn River Ford Camp one night while everyone slept.. This was the first thing they did after defeating them at Oleg's. I might add something else sniffing around the abandoned camp when they finally explore the hex.
I'm sure I'll have to adjust some of Rivers Run Red, I just haven't really thought about it yet.
We've just finished "Stolen lands" with a party of five (Cleric, Cavalier, Rogue, Fighter and Wizard) with way above average stats (25 point buy)and several feats and options from old Wotc 3.5 books. The only upgrade the DM has done is to increase the monsters hit points by 50% and the adventure has been deadly. We somehow managed to survive but was really close to a TPK in several encounters
Since Each mob is assigned a unit of XP the easy way to ramp up encounters for me is.
(Encounter XP/4)*# of Party Members.
For example: The book says 3 goblin commandos at 200xp and 5 reg goblins at 135xp
Total xp: 1275/4 is 318.75(what a part of four would recieve for this encounter)
Say you have 10 party members. For them to all get the individual xp that the encounter provides you'll need an encounter xp of 3187.5
At this point you can level up the goblins to bring the XP in line or just add more goblins.
It'll be a while before I run this path, but in general, it's simpler to add more monsters, rather than boost the power of any given monster. The stats are typically already there for you, so no work to do. In the case of solo monster encounters however, that just doesn't seem right, so applying the advanced simple template is a good solution.
I like TheChosyn's formula as a great guide as to how many extra creatures you should add by the way.
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Since Each mob is assigned a unit of XP the easy way to ramp up encounters for me is.
(Encounter XP/4)*# of Party Members.
For example: The book says 3 goblin commandos at 200xp and 5 reg goblins at 135xp
Total xp: 1275/4 is 318.75(what a part of four would recieve for this encounter)
Say you have 10 party members. For them to all get the individual xp that the encounter provides you'll need an encounter xp of 3187.5
At this point you can level up the goblins to bring the XP in line or just add more goblins.
Now why didn't I think of this...this is so easy, yet a great suggestion!
You people and your "being good at math" nonsense.
You people and your "being good at math" nonsense.
Agreed, forget the math and roll on the random dragon table for each hex. That'll teach players to form big groups.
You can also add encounters from This thread on expanding the options in Kingmaker 1. There are a lot of choices here that can add to the players' XP options and that can make the Stolen Lands really come to life.
Creative Director
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It'll be a while before I run this path, but in general, it's simpler to add more monsters, rather than boost the power of any given monster. The stats are typically already there for you, so no work to do. In the case of solo monster encounters however, that just doesn't seem right, so applying the advanced simple template is a good solution.
I like TheChosyn's formula as a great guide as to how many extra creatures you should add by the way.
It's also safer. While making monsters more powerful can have the same effect at raising the average challenge, against a single PC a tougher monster is much more likely to get a kill in than a monster of an expected CR.
There's a big difference, for example, between a upgrading a group of goblins to CR 4 encounter and replacing a group of goblins with a single CR 4 barghest for a big fight against 1st level PCs. Both might be CR 4 encounters, and both might last equally long in a fight, but that barghest is going to MURDER the first 1st level PC he attacks in a round.
For larger groups, simply increasing the number of foes is almost always the better option than increasing a foe's hp or adding in/swapping out for tougher CR monsters.
With my two competing groups (of 5 & 7-8 respectively) I've found wandering monsters have more than evened things out, xp-wise, in the long run. While the Trolls and Will-o-wisp have been flat out PC killers (good for giving them a lesson in hubris), encounters with 4-6 River Elk or wild Boar seems to press them nicely to their limits. Also, using approximate rather than exact xp distribution makes things easier.
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I've just about finished my Kingmaker for 6 players conversion, just need to type up all my notes and find some way of re-balancing the Stag Lord's fort for 6 (everything else is done). I've used the same formula as TheChozyn to boost every encounter so that the PC's get the same amount of XP as a 4 person group does in the standard encounters, but i've tried to change the themes very little and I haven't added any crazy CR monsters that might wipe the party out.
Any interest in this? There seem to be a lot of fellow DM's running for 6 people, and I think my conversions worked out petty well.
Any interest in this? There seem to be a lot of fellow DM's running for 6 people, and I think my conversions worked out petty well.
I, too, would love to see this. I've got a group of six ready to play Kingmaker as soon as we finish my friends Savage Tides campaign. Will you post it here or would you prefer to send out an e-mail?
Any interest in this? There seem to be a lot of fellow DM's running for 6 people, and I think my conversions worked out petty well.
+1
i have 7 PC's!!
7 eh? This conversion won't be entirely optimal for them, but it will be closer to the mark than the standard. I'd suggest just throwing in a extra minion type i.e. bandit, mite etc. into each encounter to help address it. I'll get the conversion up within the next two days :)
no worries. they have no tank so sure it'll be a challenge.
they have done 3 session so far, and have gotten into the safe mode of shooting everything up really quick OR quite cleverly, making allies with many encounters.
To an extent, a party with more than 4 players will tend to self-correct as the campaign plays out. Since the party with more PCs will need to split wealth and XP into more shares, they will tend to advance more slowly (you may need to adjust by adding more opportunities to gain rewards every so often, though). Treat a party with 6 PCs as having an effective average party level of one higher than their actual average level (i.e., a party of six 3rd level PCs is roughly equivalent to a party of four 4th level PCs), a party with 8 PCs as having an effective APL of two higher than actual, etc.; you may need to watch the tougher encounters (APL+3) at certain points, but the extra actions the party gets from having more PCs tend to (more than) balance out their slightly lower individual power, especially at higher levels.
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To an extent, a party with more than 4 players will tend to self-correct as the campaign plays out. Since the party with more PCs will need to split wealth and XP into more shares, they will tend to advance more slowly (you may need to adjust by adding more opportunities to gain rewards every so often, though). Treat a party with 6 PCs as having an effective average party level of one higher than their actual average level (i.e., a party of six 3rd level PCs is roughly equivalent to a party of four 4th level PCs), a party with 8 PCs as having an effective APL of two higher than actual, etc.; you may need to watch the tougher encounters (APL+3) at certain points, but the extra actions the party gets from having more PCs tend to (more than) balance out their slightly lower individual power, especially at higher levels.
But I would like my players to actually advance as fast as a party of four would, without stomping all over the encounters.
Also, I'm aware things will (eventually) even out, but with the game as written 6 PC's stomp all over most of the first chapter.
Conversion is almost ready, 8,000 words later lol. Admittedly a lot of that is copy and paste but still ;)
To an extent, a party with more than 4 players will tend to self-correct as the campaign plays out. Since the party with more PCs will need to split wealth and XP into more shares, they will tend to advance more slowly (you may need to adjust by adding more opportunities to gain rewards every so often, though). Treat a party with 6 PCs as having an effective average party level of one higher than their actual average level (i.e., a party of six 3rd level PCs is roughly equivalent to a party of four 4th level PCs), a party with 8 PCs as having an effective APL of two higher than actual, etc.; you may need to watch the tougher encounters (APL+3) at certain points, but the extra actions the party gets from having more PCs tend to (more than) balance out their slightly lower individual power, especially at higher levels.
it doesnt work so well with solo monsters who may chew in a round one PC very easily if the PC is 2 level too low...i think one of the writers alluded to this somewhere
Finally finished it; the formatting took me forever. Enjoy.
I guess I am missing something.......is there a link somewhere?
Finally finished it; the formatting took me forever. Enjoy.I guess I am missing something.......is there a link somewhere?
I guess it's this thread here.
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I guess it's this thread here.Finally finished it; the formatting took me forever. Enjoy.I guess I am missing something.......is there a link somewhere?
Yeah sorry I was mega-rushed and didnt have time to include a link lol.
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I am running a party of 5 right now, all kids 15-10 and all first time D&D/Pathfinder players. It is a BLAST! The party consist of Dragon line/Sorc, Cleric, Druid with tiger companion, Ranger, and Rogue. So far they haven't really breezed through an encounters save the first one at the Trading Post.
Between the wandering monsters which have been VERY challenging, Will-o-wisp, 2 wild boars, and a werewolf, they are moving along quite well. They just made 2nd level at the end of our last session. So far they defeated Haps and friends, the Thorn River crew, met and befriended the fey pranksters, de-traped the glade, found the Temple of the Elk and gave peace to its guardian, met Bokken and were treated to a delicious supper of moon radish soup at Oleg's.
So far I think the challenge and XP level for thier party is about spot on. Can't wait for the big showdown with the Stag Lord!
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I have 10 players with a slightly open ended game concept. I never have all 10 players at my table at the same time and most can make it through one session due to real life.
We play every other Saturday from 11 AM - 9PM
I have to ajust encounters on the FLY a lot. Party size ranges from 4-8 and changes 2-3 times during the game.
I tend to throw more mooks in than anything else. I don't increase the level of any NAMED bad guy so far. We are 1/4 the way through stolen lands but are purposly playing slower.
Slow progression table to allow me to add my own idea into the fray plus expand on player backgrounds.
We are play a VERY low powered game.
Base Stats are 10 + racial adjustment plus some random table rolls for extra background info.
All players started at level 0 (-500 xp) and gained a NPC class at random.
Each player gains 1 stat point / lv and at the 4/8/12/16/20 levels they get 2 stat points. Stats max at 23 is the base was 10.
Not a tradition game but so far 3 sessions in of 30 hours of play the highest level is 2 and so far it has gone better than my last 2 campaigns which I didn't think I could beet Age of Worms.
Kingmaker rocks!
Important note, with the Troll stronghold at the end of #32, your going to be adding extra trolls.
I seriously reccomend changing the scale of the hideout from 5 ft. to 10 ft.
I seriously reccomend changing the scale of the hideout from 5 ft. to 10 ft.
Yeah, with extra monsters and PCs it might get cramped. But be aware that the trolls become more dangerous if they have too much room to move around in.
:D No harm!