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If an oracle has one of the mysteries (Lore or Nature) which allow Charisma to be used in place of Dexterity for Armor class, is this subject to the maximum Dexterity allowed by a type of armor?
I can see this going either way: if you are supernaturally aware of your surroundings, then limited flexibility of your armor is inconsequential. On the other hand, if the limited flexibility is merely a proxy for "encumbrance", then wearing full plate could reduce your awareness of your surroundings by more than leather armor.
A search didn't find anything and this wasn't covered in the APG playtest FAQ.
If an oracle has one of the mysteries (Lore or Nature) which allow Charisma to be used in place of Dexterity for Armor class, is this subject to the maximum Dexterity allowed by a type of honor?
I can see this going either way: if you are supernaturally aware of your surroundings, then limited flexibility of your armor is inconsequential. On the other hand, if the limited flexibility is merely a proxy for "encumbrance", then wearing full plate could reduce your awareness of your surroundings by more than leather armor.
A search didn't find anything and this wasn't covered in the APG playtest FAQ.
Yes, any time it says use [insert ability score] instead of dexterity, armor limits apply. Its similar to what happens with the duelist and canny defense.
If an oracle has one of the mysteries (Lore or Nature) which allow Charisma to be used in place of Dexterity for Armor class, is this subject to the maximum Dexterity allowed by a type of honor?
I can see this going either way: if you are supernaturally aware of your surroundings, then limited flexibility of your armor is inconsequential. On the other hand, if the limited flexibility is merely a proxy for "encumbrance", then wearing full plate could reduce your awareness of your surroundings by more than leather armor.
A search didn't find anything and this wasn't covered in the APG playtest FAQ.
Yes, any time it says use [insert ability score] instead of dexterity, armor limits apply. Its similar to what happens with the duelist and canny defense.
Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but is that the general opinion of the community? If so, is that just for balance reasons? It doesn't seem to make much sense intuitively... If your AC from dex is limited because the armor restricts your movement, why would your AC from charisma be limited for the same reason? The AC from charisma has nothing to do with your mobility...
It's more a matter of simplicity. You always remember that your max "Dex" bonus is such-and-such. Admittedly, it makes the strange situation that people might try to drop their Dex more and increase their Charisma. But in an oracle, that limitation then makes sense to keep oracles from being seriously SAD.
Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but is that the general opinion of the community? If so, is that just for balance reasons? It doesn't seem to make much sense intuitively... If your AC from dex is limited because the armor restricts your movement, why would your AC from charisma be limited for the same reason? The AC from charisma has nothing to do with your mobility...
And yet you're comfortable being able to charm yourself out of the way of attacks with Charisma?
Think of it like this: You're tuning yourself into the natural vibe of things, gaining a sense of when to dodge, and when to weave. Restrictive armor limits your ability to do this.
ORACLES DONT NEED ARMOR! THEY ARE PROTECTED BY THEIR GODS!
ORACLES DONT NEED ARMOR! THEY ARE PROTECTED BY THEIR GODS!
ORACLES DON'T NEED GODS! THEY SHARE A SYMPATHETIC RESONANCE WITH A UNIVERSAL CONCEPT OF REALITY!
ORACLES DONT NEED ARMOR! THEY ARE PROTECTED BY THEIR GODS!ORACLES DON'T NEED GODS! THEY SHARE A SYMPATHETIC RESONANCE WITH A UNIVERSAL CONCEPT OF REALITY!
WHAT HE SAID = PROTECTION!
WHAT HE SAID = PROTECTION!ORACLES DONT NEED ARMOR! THEY ARE PROTECTED BY THEIR GODS!ORACLES DON'T NEED GODS! THEY SHARE A SYMPATHETIC RESONANCE WITH A UNIVERSAL CONCEPT OF REALITY!
You have made me laugh out loud (yes, literally) more than once tonight as I have been perusing various threads. Thanks.
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Yes, any time it says use [insert ability score] instead of dexterity, armor limits apply. Its similar to what happens with the duelist and canny defense.
I don’t know about that. I have an oracle player in one of my games, and without anything specific to point to, it’s a pretty compelling argument to say that it’s not the same. The only time Dex penalties are mentioned in the revelation is where it says:
Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class.
…and that has nothing to do with armor.
We’ve envisioned it as a monk’s addition of Wisdom to AC, but whereas the monk has trained to use Dex along with the awareness of Wis, the Oracle’s revelation of Cha is so overwhelming, it replaces his/her natural reflexes.
As such, armor penalties do not apply. However, will be happy to revisit it shown a rule to the contrary.
…and that has nothing to do with armor.
We’ve envisioned it as a monk’s addition of Wisdom to AC, but whereas the monk has trained to use Dex along with the awareness of Wis, the Oracle’s revelation of Cha is so overwhelming, it replaces his/her natural reflexes.
As such, armor penalties do not apply. However, will be happy to revisit it shown a rule to the contrary.
You do realise that monks can only do that while wearing absolutely no armour at all, right?
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You do realise that monks can only do that while wearing absolutely no armour at all, right?
Yeah. Two separate points you’re quoting. One is the direct rules-based application of the oracle’s use of Cha instead of Dex to AC. The only time the rules mention Cha/Dex substitution is “when you would lose Dex.” The rules mention nothing about Cha being limited by armor penalties.
Then I went on to make a RP point about why it would be the case in-game that an oracle would not lose Cha to armor penalties, likening the Cha “awareness” to the monk’s Wis “awareness.” Of course it’s different—monks have Wis, oracles have Cha; monks add Wis to Dex, oracles replace Dex with Cha; as you point out, monks only add Wis when not wearing armor, etc.
I was just making an analogy, not saying it was the same.
As such, armor penalties do not apply. However, will be happy to revisit it shown a rule to the contrary.
Well according to the write up of the ability
Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.
I think its pretty clear that it functions as Dex with all assorted drawbacks
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As such, armor penalties do not apply. However, will be happy to revisit it shown a rule to the contrary.Well according to the write up of the ability
Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.I think its pretty clear that it functions as Dex with all assorted drawbacks
Not really, in fact, you’re making my point.
Nature’s Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger. You may add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class and CMD. Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class.
Sidestep Secret, a supernatural ability that also applies to Reflex saving throws, specifically states that the maximum Dex bonus applies to Charisma, whereas Nature’s Whispers (an extraordinary ability that also applies to CMD) does not. Though similar, these are two different abilities. You cannot make “clear” determinations that because one of them functions one way, the other one therefore must as well.
To be clear: I have no horse in this race. I have no oracle character and have no particular desire to see the rule interpreted any specific way. If shown a rule that limits the Cha bonus of Nature’s Whispers’ benefit due to armor, I will concede. So far, however, the point has not been made.
As such, armor penalties do not apply. However, will be happy to revisit it shown a rule to the contrary.Well according to the write up of the ability
Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.I think its pretty clear that it functions as Dex with all assorted drawbacks
That's an interesting point. If sidestep secret goes out of its way to point out that the armor's max dex DOES apply to the charisma mod, does that mean that it doesn't apply to nature's whispers? They feel the need to point it out in one, but not the other, so it's clearly a different situation!
I am of the boat that if it is replace Dex bonus for Armor Class then Max Dex from Armor applies. They called that out on The Lora Oracle ability so that to me spells that they intended abilities along those lines to fucntion that way.Going to FAQ it and see if we can get an offical response.
Also, Nature's Whisper says you lose your CHA bonus to armor if you would normally lose your DEX bonus, but Sidestep Secret doesn't.
Not really sure how these two things are supposed to work.
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This is definitely a question worth having a Developer review / FAQ. I think the Sidestep Secret describes the fact that maximum Dex penalties from Armor apply, and Natures Whispers do not have any of that wording. Therefore, I would assume the mysteries ARE different. Nature's Whispers AC bonus should function irregardless of armor worn, and it says is only lost during certain Conditions. Wearing armor isn't a condition, but flat-footed is.
Digging up the old post again.
Anything new on this yet?
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As DM, I would rule the Cha to AC is not limited by max Dex, because of the wording of the power. I have been wrong before, however. :)