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That's one.
There are also Jedi, fighting characters with magic effects which strictly support the fighting style.
There's also the Grey Mouser, chiefly a fighter (or rogue, depending on the story and your interpretation of the classes) who always has One Big Spell...which may or may not actually be helpful or relevant or not entirely imaginary.
Marvel Comics Thor and Gandalf also come to mind.
Exactly. The word is completely meaningless and tends to provoke flame wars. Seems like a dumb word to use if you are trying to talk about a subject if nearly everyone who uses the term has a different idea of what it means and it's bound to start arguments.

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The word isn´t meaningless because gamers for better or worse use that term now. Usually with clarification attached...like saying I´m gonna make a spellsword gish or caster gish or fighter gish. Gish is like the word sword. Sword covers a LOT of items...and people may argue what is and what isn´t a sword...but if your gonna have a discussion about swords without the word sword...well the discussion becomes cumbersome quite quickly...which is why the CO people adopted the word gish. A better word could have been chosen for sure...but that one stuck for some reason.

meatrace |

Urizen wrote:Okay, how does the "Eldrich Knight" [spelling?] prestige class not fill this nitch?meatrace wrote:Yes and yes. =)Urizen wrote:And has some genuinely irksome design mistakes. It is, however, a fantastic start.ProfessorCirno wrote:It's WotC IP.Hey guys
How about that Duskblade?
Most campaigns, and indeed the Pathfinder AP's, go from level 1 to maybe 15. If you have to spend the first 5 levels as a wizard (with no fighter-y abilities) and dip a level in fighter before getting there, that's over a third of your adventuring life NOT being what you want to be. Furthermore, the one ability that the Eldritch Knight has that blends both magical and martial is its capstone, for which you need to be 16th level. That's a lot of playing a gimped fighter, a nerfed caster, falling behind on every front before you get to do one cool trick. When you crit, AND haven't used your swift action to cast a quickened spell, use arcane strike or armor, etc.
Basically, it's not something you can be from level 1. We're getting 4 new base classes in the APG which no one asked for, so we know Paizo isn't aversed to new base classes as a solution to fill certain niches.
The better question is, why isn't Paladin a prestige class. Or ranger. They're clearly just warrior versions of existing spellcasting paradigms, with some flavorful abilities and a ton of roleplaying opportunities. That's all we'd like, one on our own team, that feels as different from wizard and fighter as ranger does from druid and fighter. Paladins, just like the other base classes, are based on fantasy archetypes we recognize from fiction. Wizard has Gandalf (among lots of others) Ranger has Drizzt and Aragorn, Rogue has the Grey Mouser, and the "gish" so to speak has Elric of Melnibone, Rand al'Thor, and Richard Rahl among others. Why is there no base class to represent these famous heroic fantasy characters?

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The reason I tend to view requests for a gish class as automatically munchkin is that everytime I see a thread where someone asks for a gish build, anything that's fairly balanced gets discounted as "not quite being what I want it to be." Hell, on another forum I saw a guy reject a 3.5 class that was literally a gestalt fighter/wizard, with the only sacrifice being the bonus feats from both classes.
So here's my proposed Gish, for all you Gish lovers:
Notes: A Gish does not suffer from a spell Failure chance no matter what armor is worn. A Gish cast spells spontanously. A Gish does not have a limit on the number of spells known, they follow the normal Sorcerer list when they gain a level, but studying captured spellbooks, scrolls, or researching spells can add to their number of spells known without limit. A Gish can cast cantrips (0-level spells) at will.
Level Base Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day Special
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st 1 2 0 2 3 — — — — — — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr), Arcane Bond, Arcane School, Cantrips, Scribe Scroll, Eschew Materials
2nd 2 3 0 3 4 — — — — — — — — Bonus Feat, Bravery +1
3rd 3 3 1 3 5 — — — — — — — — Armor Training 1
4th 4 4 1 4 6 3 — — — — — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr)
5th 5 4 1 4 6 4 — — — — — — — Weapon Training 1, Bonus Feat (Wiz)
6th 6/1 5 2 5 6 5 3 — — — — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr), Bravery +2
7th 7/2 5 2 5 6 6 4 — — — — — — Armor Training 2
8th 8/3 6 2 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr)
9th 9/4 6 3 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — — Weapon Training 2
10th 10/5 7 3 7 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr), Bravery +3, Bonus Feat (Wiz)
11th 11/6/1 7 3 7 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — Armor Training 3
12th 12/7/2 8 4 8 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr)
13th 13/8/3 8 4 8 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — Weapon Training 3
14th 14/9/4 9 4 9 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — Bonus Feat (Ftr), Bravery +4
15th 15/10/5 9 5 9 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — Armor Training 4, Bonus Feat (Wiz)
16th 16/11/6/1 10 5 10 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — Bonus Feat (Ftr)
17th 17/12/7/2 10 5 10 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — Weapon Training 4
18th 18/13/8/3 11 6 11 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 Bonus Feat (Ftr), Bravery +5
19th 19/14/9/4 11 6 11 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 Armor Mastery
20th 20/15/10/5 12 6 12 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 Bonus Feat (Ftr), Weapon Mastery, Bonus Feat (Wiz)

Lord Fyre RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |

The reason I tend to view requests for a gish class as automatically munchkin is that everytime I see a thread where someone asks for a gish build, anything that's fairly balanced gets discounted as "not quite being what I want it to be." Hell, on another forum I saw a guy reject a 3.5 class that was literally a gestalt fighter/wizard, with the only sacrifice being the bonus feats from both classes.
So here's my proposed Gish, for all you Gish lovers:
Notes: A Gish does not suffer from a spell Failure chance no matter what armor is worn. A Gish cast spells spontanously. A Gish does not have a limit on the number of spells known, they follow the normal Sorcerer list when they gain a level, but studying captured spellbooks, scrolls, or researching spells can add to their number of spells known without limit. A Gish can cast cantrips (0-level spells) at will.
Level Base Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day Special
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st 1 2 0 2 3 — — — — — — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr), Arcane Bond, Arcane School, Cantrips, Scribe Scroll, Eschew Materials
2nd 2 3 0 3 4 — — — — — — — — Bonus Feat, Bravery +1
3rd 3 3 1 3 5 — — — — — — — — Armor Training 1
4th 4 4 1 4 6 3 — — — — — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr)
5th 5 4 1 4 6 4 — — — — — — — Weapon Training 1, Bonus Feat (Wiz)
6th 6/1 5 2 5 6 5 3 — — — — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr), Bravery +2
7th 7/2 5 2 5 6 6 4 — — — — — — Armor Training 2
8th 8/3 6 2 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr)
9th 9/4 6 3 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — — Weapon Training 2
10th 10/5 7 3 7 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr), Bravery +3, Bonus Feat (Wiz)
11th 11/6/1 7 3 7 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — Armor Training 3
12th 12/7/2 8 4 8 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — Bonus Feat (Ftr)
13th 13/8/3 8 4 8 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — Weapon Training 3
14th 14/9/4 9 4 9 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — Bonus Feat (Ftr), Bravery +4
15th 15/10/5 9 5 9 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — Armor Training 4, Bonus Feat (Wiz)...
d12 hit die?

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Of course. Sorry, I forgot a few details like that.
Hit Die: d12
Skill Points/Level: 12
Class Skills: All
Inferiority Complex (Ex): A Gish character can, as a move action, make any other character up to 1.5 x the Gish's level feel inadaquate and inept. This results in a -2 Depression penalty on all rolls. Every three rounds that the character remains in the Gish's presense, this causes him to feel even more inferior, causing the penalty to increase by 1. When this penalty exceeds the character's level, the character dies from a combination of the overwhelming depression and exposure to the sheer unfiltered awesomeness that is the Gish. No save.

Lord Fyre RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |

Of course. Sorry, I forgot a few details like that.
Hit Die: d12
Skill Points/Level: 12
Class Skills: All
Inferiority Complex (Ex): A Gish character can, as a move action, make any other character up to 1.5 x the Gish's level feel inadaquate and inept. This results in a -2 Depression penalty on all rolls. Every three rounds that the character remains in the Gish's presense, this causes him to feel even more inferior, causing the penalty to increase by 1. When this penalty exceeds the character's level, the character dies from a combination of the overwhelming depression and exposure to the sheer unfiltered awesomeness that is the Gish. No save.
I don't know. I am still a little underwhelmed.
It is not quite what I want to be. :(

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I don't know. I am still a little underwhelmed.
It is not quite what I want to be. :(
Ok, just for you, I came up with a brand new 1-level base class:
Class: Uber-Diety
Hit Dice: 1d(infinity)
Hit Points: infinite
Skill Points: infinite
Class Skills: All
Spells: You can cast any spell at will as a free action. You can also grant your followers the ability to cast divine spells.
Special Abilities: All of them. If you can find it in a book, you have the special ability.
Weapon Proficiencies: All Simple, Martial, and Exotic
Armor Proficiencies: Light, Medium, and Heavy
Ability Increases: At will.
Feats: You have them all.
BAB: + infinity
Saves: You succeed.
Combat Statistics: You defeat 12d8 opponents per round.

Ardenup |
Some Gish hate Mail
Actually, check this out:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXlTYYW9enwPZGQ3M3RicHRfMHFnODh4M2d3& hl=en
It's more in line with the majority of Gish class requests:
1.Bard Chassis
2.Ftr/Mage theme
3.Stabs dudes with magic.
4. Can be more melee OR Casting focused but NOT BOTH.
Please read abilities carfully. Note that the duration of melee prowess is limited. Consider it's balance VS Inquisitor.
Cheers.

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus |

Swordsmasher wrote:I keep seeing this word. What does it mean?
Also, is there a site somewhere that has a glossary for obscure gaming terms?
thanks.
Unfortunately, most gish's Ive seen tend to be focused on getting all of the benefits of a fighter and a wizard with as few of the drawbacks as possible.
Its sort of a curse word among gamers as well (like beardy or munchkin).
Gish is only a bad word when you apply it to a munchkin. Obveioulsy you have only seen munchkin gishes.

Senevri |
Well, that -2 to STR isn't so bad, and that +1 to hit and AC from small size does help a bit.
I really hope Gish isn't a Bad Word (tm), considering it is people's last name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_(disambiguation)
Lightning Warrior, anyone? :P
( found! it's in the spoiler block. )
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7029114&postcount=6

A Man In Black RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 |
eh ya may have never heard of it, but outside of gaming it's not an uncommon term for well something that has nothing to do with magic..well maybe it's magic..of a sort I guess
Unless you mean an actress from the first half of the century, a Creation Scientist, a 2005 video game, or a Smashing Pumpkins album when you say "something that has nothing to do with magic," then, no, it doesn't have some other meaning. Nowhere is "gish" used to mean something sexual or scatological outside of Urbandictionary, which also gives equally-spurious NSFW definitions for shoes and orange and algebra.
Hell, on another forum I saw a guy reject a 3.5 class that was literally a gestalt fighter/wizard, with the only sacrifice being the bonus feats from both classes.
On an unspecified forum in an unspecified context, an unspecified person said a thing. That's doubtful even if it is relevant.

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re: Duskblade
And has some genuinely irksome design mistakes. It is, however, a fantastic start.
Can you guys outline me the design problems with the Duskblade ? I have a player who plays one, he's rather happy, I'm rather happy, but I'm curious as to what opinions are about the class. Geniuine curiosity here, I'm not looking to pick a fight :)

Lord Fyre RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |

Lord Fyre wrote:I don't know. I am still a little underwhelmed.
It is not quite what I want to be. :(Ok, just for you, I came up with a brand new 1-level base class:
Class: Uber-Diety
Hit Dice: 1d(infinity)
Hit Points: infinite
Skill Points: infinite
Class Skills: All
Spells: You can cast any spell at will as a free action. You can also grant your followers the ability to cast divine spells.
Special Abilities: All of them. If you can find it in a book, you have the special ability.
Weapon Proficiencies: All Simple, Martial, and Exotic
Armor Proficiencies: Light, Medium, and Heavy
Ability Increases: At will.
Feats: You have them all.
BAB: + infinity
Saves: You succeed.
Combat Statistics: You defeat 12d8 opponents per round.
Now we are getting close! All it needs is the Harem as a class feature, and we are done.

A Man In Black RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 |
meatrace wrote:Can you guys outline me the design problems with the Duskblade ? I have a player who plays one, he's rather happy, I'm rather happy, but I'm curious as to what opinions are about the class. Geniuine curiosity here, I'm not looking to pick a fight :)re: Duskblade
And has some genuinely irksome design mistakes. It is, however, a fantastic start.
The chief issue is that it uses a whole long list of spells in a way completely different from the way they were designed, requiring a combination of checking spell descriptions then checking the modifiers to those spells in the duskblade description. It's an awkward, kludgey design that's only somewhat acceptable because it's in a book that came out late in 3.5's life.

seekerofshadowlight |

Nowhere is "gish" used to mean something sexual or scatological outside of Urbandictionary,
I'll be sure to inform folks that they can stop using that word as you say it is not in use. In fact it is indeed in use,the folks who knew it didn't get it from Urbandictionary but ya know high school or collage the term is in use in both places now days
And as the highschool and the collage are at lest 80 miles apart and really in BFE to say it is not in use is simply not true. And as I said before it caused an issue once.
So yes about 5 or 6 years ago is when I heard that term with that meaning, so I think they may predate the Urbandictionary stuff, I really am not sure just found the site like last year myself.

A Man In Black RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 |
I'll be sure to inform folks that they can stop using that word as you say it is not in use. In fact it is indeed in use,the folks who knew it didn't get it from Urbandictionary but ya know high school or collage the term is in use in both places now days
We have only your word and UD's on that. There's an awful lot of people claiming some unspecified person said something at some unspecified time around here. Plus, generally it's frowned upon here and elsewhere to spam wizard threads with quotes from the Very Secret Diaries or Bloodninja's logs.
So. Unless we're going to derail discussion of bound items with discussions of alternate meanings for staff let's put this nonsense to bed.

Khuldar |

Kthulhu wrote:Now we are getting close! All it needs is the Harem as a class feature, and we are done.
Ok, just for you, I came up with a brand new 1-level base class:
Class: Uber-Diety
...
Armor Proficiencies: Light, Medium, and Heavy
...
And shield proficiency. It's lack is a glaring flaw in the class that makes it unplayable.

Lathiira |

Lord Fyre wrote:And shield proficiency. It's lack is a glaring flaw in the class that makes it unplayable.Kthulhu wrote:Now we are getting close! All it needs is the Harem as a class feature, and we are done.
Ok, just for you, I came up with a brand new 1-level base class:
Class: Uber-Diety
...
Armor Proficiencies: Light, Medium, and Heavy
...
Also missing immortality and invincibility. I didn't see anything about those, either. Are we sure it defeats only 12d8 opponents each round? I mean, that's a pretty weak ability even at 1st level.
Sorry, couldn't resist;)

TreeLynx |

A Man In Black wrote:Exactly. The word is completely meaningless and tends to provoke flame wars. Seems like a dumb word to use if you are trying to talk about a subject if nearly everyone who uses the term has a different idea of what it means and it's bound to start arguments.That's one.
There are also Jedi, fighting characters with magic effects which strictly support the fighting style.
There's also the Grey Mouser, chiefly a fighter (or rogue, depending on the story and your interpretation of the classes) who always has One Big Spell...which may or may not actually be helpful or relevant or not entirely imaginary.
Marvel Comics Thor and Gandalf also come to mind.
Heck, we can even add Wonder Woman, Etrigan, or maybe even Green Lantern to the mix, if we want to. The Jedi certainly aren't off of concept. I left out the Grey Mouser, mostly because I've found the actual mages in Leiber's Lankhmar stories to be more like outsiders or aberrants, and Grey Mouser always seemed to be mostly Magical Knacking it.
The idea of arcanist/warrior hybrid is not, in and of itself, horrible, and is partially supported. The new APG alchemist is a solid self buffing transmutation based Warrior/arcane hybrid. The new APG summoner happens to do alright as a Arcanist/warrior. The bard manages well as a Rogue/arcanist.
Some of this may be problems with certain arcane spells perceived as being a concern if put on a forward or halfback chassis. This leads to "balance" adjustments, where the arcanist/warrior who wants full arcane power misses out on a big chunk of being a warrior in order to have unrestricted access to the spell list. The worst part of it is, that I'm really convinced most hybrid concepts don't even want unrestricted access to all arcane spells. I don't really see most hybrid arcanist/warriors going after planar binding or scry, over, say, telekinesis.

seekerofshadowlight |

We have only your word and UD's on that.
Right back at ya, we only have your word it is not in use. I can back my story up but you only have you saying it does not mean that.See how that works there?
I am glad for ya guys that have not ran into this, but it is a common term outside of gaming among the younger crowd mostly.
I am playing a gish sounds as good {And needs are much explaining to make sense}as I am making a blue pancake, then acting all surprised when non gamers have no clue or think it means something else. Then saying..well..umm..you can't prove it means that..so there
And round and round we go.

Mirror, Mirror |
We have only your word and UD's on that.
*failed my WILL save*
Go to a college sporting event, look-up the star player of the home team, and shout the following:
"Yeah [visiting team name]! Gish [home team star player]'s mother!"
If the term does not exist, you will be safe. If it does, in fact, exist, you will soon be clobbered by a horde of drunken frat guys and roid-head wannabes.

A Man In Black RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 |
I can back my story up but you only have you saying it does not mean that.
Do so. Because Google doesn't seem to have heard of it. Plus the whole "We don't spam bound item threads with alternate definitions of staff" thing that you didn't address at all.
Go to a college sporting event, look-up the star player of the home team, and shout the following:
"Yeah [visiting team name]! Gish [home team star player]'s mother!"
"Yeah [visiting team name]! Ladle [home team star player]'s mother!" will get the same results, and yet any actual discussion of the term ladle is probably something to do with cooking or food service. Put any random nonsensical word there and you get the same results.

KenderKin |
I am working on a bladesinger this is what I have so far.
Any comments/feedback would be appreciated....
Bladesinger
Bladesinger represent up close combat and spell casting. Bladesingers are often scouts, trackers, and search for lost persons and items. The Bladesinger has unique mastery of a single specialized weapon, to the exclusion of all others, skill in combat and spell casting.
Bladesingers gain some specific benefits but at the cost of versatility in both combat and spellcasting.
Role: Bladesingers are deft skirmishers, either in melee or through spells at range, they are capable of skillfully dancing in and out of battle. Their abilities allow them to deal with foes.
Alignment: .
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The Bladesinger's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Table: Bard
Level BAB Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Spells
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Weapon of choice, eschew materials 1 — — — — —
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Quicken Spell (EX) 2 — — — — —
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 3 — — — — —
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 3 1 — — — —
5th +4 +4 +1 +4 4 2 — — — —
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Quicker spell (EX) 4 3 — — — —
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 4 3 1 — — —
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 4 4 2 — — —
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 5 4 3 — — —
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Quick spell (EX) 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 5 5 5 5 5 5
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Bladesinger.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bladesinger selects a single bladed one-handed melee weapon from the following list (the choice is made at first level and can never be changed): dagger, sickle, shortspear, hand axe, rapier, kukri, shortsword, longsword, scimitar, bastard sword, and the elven curved blade. The Bladesinger is proficient in the selected weapon. The bladesinger gains a 5 point penalty to use any other weapon, and loses any racial weapon bonuses.
The Bladesinger is proficient with both light armor and medium armor. The Bladesinger can never learn to utilize a shield and suffers a penalty to armor class equivalent to the shields bonus. A bladesinger wearing heavy armor loses all bladesinger abilities while wearing the armor.
Spells: A bladesinger casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a bladesinger must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Bladesinger's spell is 10 + the spell level + the Bladesinger's Charisma modifier.
Table: Bladesinger Spells Known
Level Spells Known
0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st 4 2 — — — — —
2nd 5 2 — — — — —
3rd 5 3 — — — — —
4th 6 3 1 — — — —
5th 6 4 2 — — — —
6th 7 4 2 1 — — —
7th 7 5 3 2 — — —
8th 8 5 3 2 1 — —
9th 8 5 4 3 2 — —
10th 9 5 4 3 2 1 —
11th 9 5 5 4 3 2 —
12th 9 5 5 4 3 2 1
13th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2
14th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2
15th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3
16th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3
17th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3
18th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3
19th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3
20th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3
Like other spellcasters, a Bladesinger can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Bladesinger. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
A bladesinger's selection of spells is extremely limited. A bladesinger begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bladesinger Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bladesinger knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Bladesinger Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the bladesinger has gained some understanding of through study.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a bladesinger can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the bladesinger loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A bladesingger may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.
At second level the Bladesinger gains quicken spell (EX) as the feat of the same name except the quickening of the spell costs a slot 3 levels higher rather than 4. The bladesinger style of combat prevents the character from ever gaining or they lose the use of the following meta-magic feats:
Still spell, silent spell. The bladesinger style of movement and vocalizations during combat prevents the character from ever casting without both movement and noise…..
At sixth level the Bladesinger gains quicker spell (EX) which allows a quickened spell that costs a slot two levels higher to cast rather than 4. At fifteenth level the Bladesinger gains quick spell (EX) which allows a spell to be quickened at a cost of one spell slot higher.

Mirror, Mirror |
"Yeah [visiting team name]! Ladle [home team star player]'s mother!" will get the same results, and yet any actual discussion of the term ladle is probably something to do with cooking or food service. Put any random nonsensical word there and you get the same results.
Unlikely, since people know what a ladle is. Now SPOON is another story, but that DOES have another connotation. However, type "SPOON" into Google, and check the entry in Wikipedia, and no mention of "spooning" is available (it IS under spooning, but that was not the assignment). Also, GOOSE is not listed, though if you goosed a co-worker, then claimed the word did not exist, so you had done nothing, you would likely be hit (and fired).
Arguing that a term does not mean something because of a lack of refrences is just nonsense, and you know it. "Sexting" was not a real word 10 years ago. 5 years ago, you would have been hard pressed to find it defined on-line. Now, it's in the AP news wires as an uncommon term (uncommon, since they still feel the need to define it).

Kolokotroni |

A Man In Black wrote:"Yeah [visiting team name]! Ladle [home team star player]'s mother!" will get the same results, and yet any actual discussion of the term ladle is probably something to do with cooking or food service. Put any random nonsensical word there and you get the same results.Unlikely, since people know what a ladle is. Now SPOON is another story, but that DOES have another connotation. However, type "SPOON" into Google, and check the entry in Wikipedia, and no mention of "spooning" is available (it IS under spooning, but that was not the assignment). Also, GOOSE is not listed, though if you goosed a co-worker, then claimed the word did not exist, so you had done nothing, you would likely be hit (and fired).
Arguing that a term does not mean something because of a lack of refrences is just nonsense, and you know it. "Sexting" was not a real word 10 years ago. 5 years ago, you would have been hard pressed to find it defined on-line. Now, it's in the AP news wires as an uncommon term (uncommon, since they still feel the need to define it).
Hmmm i wonder what other gamer terminology can be used as slurrs at sporting matches? I'll have to think on that, imagine the confusion on the opposing team when you call them forum trolls. Maybe munchkins? Your mother wears kneepads of allure? This could be productive.

seekerofshadowlight |

"Plus the whole "We don't spam bound item threads with alternate definitions of staff" thing that you didn't address at all.
It is not spamming it is the topic of the thread. The OP did not know what the word was, and well ya may not like it but "Gish" has some strong non-gaming meanings. I am very much on topic, You seem to want to ignore facts is all.

Kolokotroni |

"A Man In Black wrote:It is not spamming it is the topic of the thread. The OP did not know what the word was, and well ya may not like it but "Gish" has some strong non-gaming meanings. I am very much on topic, You seem to want to ignore facts is all."Plus the whole "We don't spam bound item threads with alternate definitions of staff" thing that you didn't address at all.
While it may be true there are other meanings of the word, do you really think the poster was asking about sporting matches? If someone says gish here or on any other rpg forums, i think its rather safe to say they mean some kind of fighter mage (whether its a githyanki or not). I dont think it was necessary to point out the other meanings.

seekerofshadowlight |

Yes it is, the other term is becoming more common, mostly with the younger crowd. Where do you get new gamers? See this is how I ran into the issue by someone being insulted because she thought another player was making a crass comment and was really confused.
Gamers need to know that term can mean and does indeed mean something insulting and sexual to some people. Who do not know it's same lame injoke that needs to be explained to be understood.

pres man |

Yes it is, the other term is becoming more common, mostly with the younger crowd. Where do you get new gamers? See this is how I ran into the issue by someone being insulted because she thought another player was making a crass comment and was really confused.
Gamers need to know that term can mean and does indeed mean something insulting and sexual to some people. Who do not know it's same lame injoke that needs to be explained to be understood.
My guess if some uses such as you indicate is "common" it is probably only so in a particular region.

seekerofshadowlight |

It is now in the high schools here and at lest one collage 80 or so miles north. This is not an urban area at all, so ya know to say it's not spreading is a bit odd as ya know folks know of the term on the other side of the country as well and ya know how terms spread from collage to collage anyhow. Points to "no shave November"
I am not sure where it came from but it has been in use around here for about 5 years, that being said is is known to more folks now then 5 years back.
Kinda like the term "wog" Ya know Can I make a "wog" may sound fine to gamers if wog was made to mean fighter/mage but ya know that term is an insult to some folks. Just because I never heard it used as a kid or in this area{heard it used when I got about 20 though in another state} I guess means it is not offensive to anyone anywhere.
Why keep using a term that means something sexual to non gamers if ya know ya plan to bring in new players? I have had friends of my bro who are collage age see me reading a 'gish" thread and come to the wrong ideal of just what kinda of site I was reading.

pres man |

It is now in the high schools here and at lest one collage 80 or so miles north. This is not an urban area at all, so ya know to say it's not spreading is a bit odd as ya know folks know of the term on the other side of the country as well and ya know how terms spread from collage to collage anyhow. Points to "no shave November"
I am not sure where it came from but it has been in use around here for about 5 years, that being said is is known to more folks now then 5 years back.
Kinda like the term "wog" Ya know Can I make a "wog" may sound fine to gamers if wog was made to mean fighter/mage but ya know that term is an insult to some folks. Just because I never heard it used as a kid or in this area{heard it used when I got about 20 though in another state} I guess means it is not offensive to anyone anywhere.
Why keep using a term that means something sexual to non gamers if ya know ya plan to bring in new players? I have had friends of my bro who are collage age see me reading a 'gish" thread and come to the wrong ideal of just what kinda of site I was reading.
I'm sure staff, rod, and wand all have "special" meanings to non-gamers, why use those terms?
What you are asking is the equivalent to saying, if you work in a store that sells different types of hot drinks, you shouldn't use the word "tea-bag" to describe the bag of tea that is placed in hot water, because there is a sexual use of the term as well.
According to the 2nd ammendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
I have the right to the arms of a mammal of the family Ursidae.
Here's a word you can use next time someone gets the wrong impression, "Context."
Seriously, are we so worried that someone will be too stupid to understand the context a word is used as they will confuse it for something inappropriate? Is that how low the standard of intelligence has become, that people that can't understand how a word relates to other words around it should be making the rest of us restrict our word choices? Really? I mean, yeah someone might come in and say, "I know a meaning of that word, but from the way you are using it, obviously that isn't what you mean. What do you mean by that word?" That is fine, which I pretty sure is what the OP was asking about.

seekerofshadowlight |

yep but staff, rod and wand have a common context. Now ya can make em sexual but the common context is not. Where as "gish" is sexual in the common context
Ya are using a made up word with a common sexual meaning and then going "Oh but it's not sexual!"
And ya can say context all ya want but the word means what it means. You are using it out of context, gamers who want it to mean fighter/mage are using it out of context.
Ya can explain to the New gamer ya just lost that ya know she and everyone she knows has the word all wrong, but ya still got off on the wrong foot and maybe lost a gamer over something silly
Staff, wand , rod have many meanings but most folks know the standard non-sexual meaning to them, ya have to make them sexual. Gish is sexual, not made to be. It is an excepted sexual term made by some folks who did not grasp it's old school meaning anyhow to mean something else.
Then when someone points out it is a sexual term ya get all strawman about "well ya ya can make it that way"...it is that way.

pres man |

yep but staff, rod and wand have a common context. Now ya can make em sexual but the common context is not. Where as "gish" is sexual in the common context
Ya are using a made up word with a common sexual meaning and then going "Oh but it's not sexual!"
And ya can say context all ya want but the word means what it means. You are using it out of context, gamers who want it to mean fighter/mage are using it out of context.
Ya can explain to the New gamer ya just lost that ya know she and everyone she knows has the word all wrong, but ya still got off on the wrong foot and maybe lost a gamer over something silly
Staff, wand , rod have many meanings but most folks know the standard non-sexual meaning to them, ya have to make them sexual. Gish is sexual, not made to be. It is an excepted sexual term made by some folks who did not grasp it's old school meaning anyhow to mean something else.
Then when someone points out it is a sexual term ya get all strawman about "well ya ya can make it that way"...it is that way.
Contradiction error ... error ... error ...
EDIT: Also if someone is going to abandon gaming because of one word ... yeah, not a big loss I'm thinking.

voska66 |

yep but staff, rod and wand have a common context. Now ya can make em sexual but the common context is not. Where as "gish" is sexual in the common context
Ya are using a made up word with a common sexual meaning and then going "Oh but it's not sexual!"
And ya can say context all ya want but the word means what it means. You are using it out of context, gamers who want it to mean fighter/mage are using it out of context.
Ya can explain to the New gamer ya just lost that ya know she and everyone she knows has the word all wrong, but ya still got off on the wrong foot and maybe lost a gamer over something silly
Staff, wand , rod have many meanings but most folks know the standard non-sexual meaning to them, ya have to make them sexual. Gish is sexual, not made to be. It is an excepted sexual term made by some folks who did not grasp it's old school meaning anyhow to mean something else.
Then when someone points out it is a sexual term ya get all strawman about "well ya ya can make it that way"...it is that way.
To be honest rod has sexual meanings too and so do staff and wand to a lesser degree.
Personally I think gish just sounds silly and I don't use the term.

seekerofshadowlight |

Pressman, if a young female gamers leaves your group because she finds the other male players to be crass and vulgar or thought they were talking about something else, before ya even get started.it is indeed an issue.
And I have no clue who you see what I sad as a contradiction.
1: It is a sexral term
2: I has an old school meaning that is not used
3: most folks who use it in game have no clue about 2 and are useing it out of context
4: It is a modern sexual term when use to mean a generic fighter/mage is being used out of context.
How is any of that a Contradiction?

meatrace |

yep but staff, rod and wand have a common context. Now ya can make em sexual but the common context is not. Where as "gish" is sexual in the common context
No, it ISN'T. It's an album by the Smashing Pumpkins, the last name of the actress Annabeth Gish, among other things. It's common IN YOUR AREA stop saying that because two retarded kids you hang out with use the term that everyone uses it. I've never heard it. Nor had I heard Blue Waffle. You act like there's not internet where you live or at college. You ever think they got it off the internet? Naw.
Stop acting like this is a common term IT IS NOT, no matter how many times you insist. No one I know has ever used that term to your meaning, and it is OUT OF CONTEXT ON THESE FORUMS.

![]() |

The word isn´t meaningless because gamers for better or worse use that term now. Usually with clarification attached...like saying I´m gonna make a spellsword gish or caster gish or fighter gish. Gish is like the word sword. Sword covers a LOT of items...and people may argue what is and what isn´t a sword...but if your gonna have a discussion about swords without the word sword...well the discussion becomes cumbersome quite quickly...which is why the CO people adopted the word gish. A better word could have been chosen for sure...but that one stuck for some reason.
If you have to explain what a word means every time you use it then that word is pretty much meaningless. I could point you to all the different discussions where people are debating what 'gish' means but you can just look in this thread. MiB made a whole thread on "what is a gish" a while ago. Basically if you want to talk about making a spellsword it's easier and more clear to just say "This is a spellsword", the word gish doesn't add clarity, it detracts and draws trolls like flies.
Incidentally this confusion isn't limited to Paizo's boards, it's pretty much universal. Search Google for Gish and you come up with nothing useful. Google "What is a Gish" and you come up with a discussion that looks almost exactly like this on another forum.

Mirror, Mirror |
No, it ISN'T. It's an album by the Smashing Pumpkins, the last name of the actress Annabeth Gish, among other things. It's common IN YOUR AREA stop saying that because two retarded kids you hang out with use the term that everyone uses it. I've never heard it. Nor had I heard Blue Waffle. You act like there's not internet where you live or at college. You ever think they got it off the internet? Naw.
Stop acting like this is a common term IT IS NOT, no matter how many times you insist. No one I know has ever used that term to your meaning, and it is OUT OF CONTEXT ON THESE FORUMS.
So, "because two retarded kids you hang out with" do NOT use the term, since "no one I know has ever used that term to your meaning", it is somehow NOT a common term??
And I would stop using that word. Sarah Palin is outraged:P