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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The Armor Expert Trait reduces armor check penalty of all armor by +1.
Would this apply to shields too?
The text says when you wear armor of any sort, but it's not clear if it means anything listed in ther armor chapter og the rule book or specifically things that grant an armor bonus?
Shields are shields. Armor is armor. By that, I mean armor is that which requires armor proficiency in light, medium, and/or heavy. Shields require shield proficiency and are not covered by armor proficiencies. Using that example, they are two different classes of objects, and armor training would not cover shields.
It states armor, not shields so yes it does not work for them. I have no pity for the tower shield guys, ya make your choices and deal with em.
I've heard it argued that shields count as armor because they are on the ARMOR table, like how the weapons are on the WEAPONS table. I don't know if that's right, but it makes sense to me.
They are on the chart yes, but if ya notice they are on the Shield chart not the armor chart. They do not provide an armor bonus but a shield bounes in stead, they can not be used with an armor proficiency but need s shield proficiency
They simply are not the same thing. Maybe it should work like this, but as written it does not
They are on the chart yes, but if ya notice they are on the Shield chart not the armor chart. They do not provide an armor bonus but a shield bounes in stead, they can not be used with an armor proficiency but need s shield proficiency
They simply are not the same thing. Maybe it should work like this, but as written it does not
Though I am not disagreeing with your assertion (that armor and shields are different), the table is still THE SAME table. They are not two different tables.
Though I am not disagreeing with your assertion (that armor and shields are different), the table is still THE SAME table. They are not two different tables.They are on the chart yes, but if ya notice they are on the Shield chart not the armor chart. They do not provide an armor bonus but a shield bounes in stead, they can not be used with an armor proficiency but need s shield proficiency
They simply are not the same thing. Maybe it should work like this, but as written it does not
They are indeed. If ya notice the armored are in alphabetical order But the shields are not in the same chart. It is the same table but so are exotic weapons ans simple weapons...different charts layed out on the same table.
Shields are not listed as part of the armor, if they were bucklers would be in the light armor section and such, sorry not the same thing and the rules point out they are not the same thing.
So as written unless you choose to "forget" a bunch of rules they simply do not count as armor.
What chart really doesn't matter. Armor provides a an Armor bonus and shield provide a shield bonus. Two different things simple as that. They share some of the same features though. Such as an AC bonus, armor check penalty and arcane failure chance and that's why they are on the same table. But they still are different otherwise you couldn't stack armor and shields.
Now armor expert is trait and if a player wanted it to apply to shield. Traits are minor in nature and you can easily create your own with little impact.
armor and shields follow all the same rules, thier bonuses just have different names, i'd say it would work. but then, i hate armor check penalty and all my pcs have exclusively worn wither light armor or no armor. and only stuff without a check penalty, and only if it had a max dex equal to or higher than the pc's dexterity modifier up to 4 levels ahead.
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Weapons all follow the same "rules" as well, but that doesn't mean that weapon focus is interchangeable, at will, with all the weapons you carry. An amulet of natural armor+1 is not the same as bracers of armor+1 just because they both grant a +1 bonus to AC. Armor Expert specifically states it reduces the check penalty of ARMOR by one. It even goes as far to refer to the word "suit" in the description. Seems pretty cut 'n dry. This trait applies to armor only and does not extend to shields. I agree with voska in that, outside of society, it would be acceptable to house rule a Shield Expert trait. Of course it would also be a combat trait preventing a player from selecting both for the same character unless you modified that rule as well.
Benefit: When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit's armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0.(emphasis mine)
Even though shields and armor can give you an armor check penalty, this trait only reduces it from 'a suit of armor that you are wearing'. Some shields are custom built to be part of a suit of armor, but even then you'd apply it your ACP when wearing the suit of armor.
This would be different if the benefit merely read: Reduce your ACP by 1 to a minimum check penalty of 0.
By this RAW, people would argue that Shields count as a sort of armor, so it would apply. Simultaneously, the sentence following it refers to the armor which the trait affects being a "suit" that you "wear" in order for the trait to apply. Do you "wear" shields? Not really. Yes, you carry them. Yes, you use them. But wear them? By RAW, no, you do not wear them.
Shields are not the same as armor (though they provide AC like armor), both as function of mechanics and level of function. If I can use Full Plate as a weapon (this is not including Spikes or Gauntlets, which are weapons, not armor for the purposes of Full Plate), then by all means, shields and armor are the same thing. But you can't, and thusly, they aren't.
*Edit*
Personally, I probably wouldn't have a problem with a trait functioning exactly the same as this, except applying to shields, but the RAW is the RAW, and the intent is the intent.
@ Darksol - I guess the point I'm making is that you'd never say "Pass me my suit of shield" as you do say "What a lovely suit of armor, Madame."
And I agree. All I said was people are going to try and make a RAW argument for it and cited the example.
Of course; I wear armor to bed (yay Endurance Feat), but I don't wear shields to bed. I carry shields to bed, and I carry armor to bed on occasion, but I more commonly wear armor to bed.