A friend of mine wants to continue pursuing his psionic fetish even into our Pathfinder games.
The GM has approved this notion, but has left it up to me (another player) to do the conversion work.
First, I wanted to know if somebody had already done so, and if so, where that info might be, what changes might have been made, and what kinds of balance/translation issues might I need to watch for.
For the moment, the psion (telepath) my friend (let's call him Ed) has created has had the following adjustments made (from a normal 3.5 psion)...
...d4 HD changed to d6 HD.
...Concentration skill exchanged for new Concentration mechanic (though all old psionic uses such as gaining focus are retained).
...All other skills (including autohypnosis, psicraft, and knowledge: psionics) are retained.
...Powers with XP costs have some other costs instead (such as temporary level loss to simulate strain or expensive material components).
...Feats at every odd level rather than every third level. Psion maintains bonus feats at old level placement.
Most everything else I've seen transfers over pretty directly. Still I am wary. What kinds of problems should my GM and I expect from having a psionic character in a rules set balanced for Pathfinder?
Also, what happens (normally) if a psicrystal is destroyed? Is there any kind of penalty or waiting period before the psion can get a new one? If so, that 's likely to change too.
OK, step one, check out Dreamscarred Press' Pathfinder Psionics page here. They have been working on pathfinderising the base classes, powers, skills etc.
Some pointers they are using that seem to work, that you could use for a 'quick and dirty' fix:
- Psicraft and spellcraft merged into the same skill.
- Concentration mechanic used, new uses for the concentration skill are carried to the Autohypnosis skill.
- Hit dice are upgraded in accordance with pathfinder standard for the psion and wilder (psion to d6, wilder to d8).
- BAB for the soulknife upgraded to full BAB to match with d10 hit dice.
- Psionic focus can be maintained or regained even if you are on 0 power points.
The work on powers is ongoing, some changes they are introducing involve some level 1 powers having a 'level 0' manifestation you can use without power points. They are still likely to change a lot before final release, so I don't recomend using them now. They initially nerfed some powers, then agreed to un-nerf them because they had gone too far. Currently, it's agreed the energy powers need the user to expend psionic focus or regain it, or wild surge in order to switch energy type. This was a bone of contention, some felt the powers should be locked into one energy type at time of choosing, others that it should be left as it was in 3.5. The current compromise was reached after it was pointed out that the 'blaster' build was one of the few good ones a wilder could pull off, and that with only eleven powers by level 20, they would be nerfed into uselessness without being able to change energy types. This could still change, though.
Likewise the class builds are likely to change a bit - the psion build is OK, the wilder has some surge types to add, the psychic warrior is looking very good. The soulknife they are working on may actually be too good, it's gone from being the one class the fighter could laugh at in 3.5 to being something more than awesome. In my opinion, it needs a little fine tuning downwards, but that is still to be worked on.
Now, I am using a 3.5 wilder in a pathfinder game, using not the new build from Dreamscarred but just the changes bullet-pointed above, and it measures up reasonably well. The only problem I have so far noticed is that it really suffers the lack of a 'level 0' option or a free use power such as the other spell-casters get.
Otherwise, the only problems you might face are the ones that the psionics system had in 3.5, that your psionic characters may be tempted to 'nova' the early encounters and then run out of juice later. It's much more sensible for them to concerve power early and save as much as possible for later encounters.
Personally I don't think Dreamscarred did a terribly good job with the conversion. There's a lot of copypasta of things that were ambiguous that were left that way, the paths to power are still there and with the exception of Schism which was slightly nerfed, remain unchanged. They didn't fix any of what I felt was the problem with Psionics (powers are too selfish, not enough group synergy) and a lot of the new dynamics like discipline abilities are really clunky.
That said, it's at least updated to be coherent in a PF universe, i.e. things say CMD, monsters are beefed, all the HD skills and whatnot jibe with the PF core. Although they have Knowledge (Psionics) as a separate skill still, which I'm ambivalent about, and they have Autohypnosis as the skill check for psionic focus rather than just a Concentration check (derp?).
I don't know how knowledgeable you are about Psionics, RD. The only thing you should really be wary of from a psionic character are psion-only tricks and gimmicky attacks like Ego Whip which if you're not expecting it can ruin your day as a DM (I'm sure I've ruined my DM's day with it many a time teehee).
Just noticed this was thread necromancy, but nonetheless timely for me because I'm starting a Telepath next week. First time playing Psionics in like 5 years. I'm excited. Let's dish!
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one suggestion I'd make on the 'railroad/stomp' question, especially since you have the boards is tell the psionic player that if you're unsure of something he's pulling, that you'll let it fly 'this time' but you're going to check between games and make sure the power really works that way. That way you can let him (hopefully honestly) stretch his wings while letting him know you *will* check on anything funny.
And (of course)
Although they have Knowledge (Psionics) as a separate skill still, which I'm ambivalent about, and they have Autohypnosis as the skill check for psionic focus rather than just a Concentration check (derp?).
There's no skill check at all for gaining psionic focus in Psionics Unleashed; not sure where you're getting that from.
TOZ: Pretty much!
To those who think Psionicists 'go nova', you are very, very likely forgetting an often overlooked, but highly important rule about psionics: a psionicists cannot spend more PP on a power than his manifester level. A 1st level psion can only spend 1 PP, so he can only manifest unaugmented 1st level powers, for example.
To those who think Psionicists 'go nova', you are very, very likely forgetting an often overlooked, but highly important rule about psionics: a psionicists cannot spend more PP on a power than his manifester level. A 1st level psion can only spend 1 PP, so he can only manifest unaugmented 1st level powers, for example.
Right. The thing is the tricks that let one bypass that limitation are still there, albeit weaker than they were in XPH.
Any Psion takes the following path to power
-Psicrystal Affinity
-Psicrystal Containment
-Overchannel
-Quicken Power
-Psionic Meditation
-Psionic Endowment/Greater
-Empower Power (Optional-Blasters only)
-Expanded Knowledge: Schism (If not a Telepath)
-Talented (Optional)
Now you manifest Schism round 1. Manifest a buff with schism.
Then you have your main power, a quickened power, and schism power every round, then regaining psionic focus as a move action. If you're level 11 (the minimum level to have all this, or most of it) you end up spending 9+5(schism+overchannel)+9(quickened) every round.
Meatrace, I find your appraisal of DSP's psionics update amusing in it's parallel of some people's appraisal of Paizo's update of 3.5. Apparently they followed Pathfinder's example faithfully. :)
Well I get what you're saying, and don't completely disagree, but I think Paizo still did a much better job than DSP. DSP seems to have hardly done an update at all.
Meatrace, I find your appraisal of DSP's psionics update amusing in it's parallel of some people's appraisal of Paizo's update of 3.5. Apparently they followed Pathfinder's example faithfully. :)Well I get what you're saying, and don't completely disagree, but I think Paizo still did a much better job than DSP. DSP seems to have hardly done an update at all.
Most likely because all those that participated in the beta test wanted to just fit the system into Pathfinder, rather than change the system. I did not participate, and I rarely use psionics, but most people that participated like the XPH. They just wanted an update, more than a rework.
Most likely because all those that participated in the beta test wanted to just fit the system into Pathfinder, rather than change the system. I did not participate, and I rarely use psionics, but most people that participated like the XPH. They just wanted an update, more than a rework.Meatrace, I find your appraisal of DSP's psionics update amusing in it's parallel of some people's appraisal of Paizo's update of 3.5. Apparently they followed Pathfinder's example faithfully. :)Well I get what you're saying, and don't completely disagree, but I think Paizo still did a much better job than DSP. DSP seems to have hardly done an update at all.
I participated in a very marginal capacity (by feeding ideas through other people who were active participants). I like the XPH. A LOT. There are people who just don't like psionics. Some of them have legitimate complaints, some have misconceptions, and others are fun-hating jerks. We can't do anything about the jerks, but there's no reason not to address the legitimate problems with the system and actively work to clear up misconceptions.
It was DSP's book and they could have done anything they wanted with it. They have worked for years to keep the psionic system alive and published multiple books of new feats/prestige classes/powers/etc. I would have liked to see some of the best stuff added to the new core book. They didn't have to just regurgitate the XPH.
I just read some feedback during the playtest. My observations was what was made was what the majority of the playtesters were wanting. I can take or leave psionics. Personally, I find them more appropriate for scifi. I have a player that loves psionics, so I bought the book so he would have the options. Plus, almost ANYTHING can be mined for ideas, lol.
It was DSP's book and they could have done anything they wanted with it. They have worked for years to keep the psionic system alive and published multiple books of new feats/prestige classes/powers/etc. I would have liked to see some of the best stuff added to the new core book. They didn't have to just regurgitate the XPH.
That was their intention from the start, I believe. They were waiting for Psionics Expanded to start adding new stuff. (Part 1 available now!)
I think they pretty much followed paizo's example to the letter, though in retrospect they could have been a bit more innovative rather than copying this example from the start, but as a base to expand upon it works fairly well and they did some work on making it a better fit.
My main issue I have with their lack of work in balancing the powers, the work I appreciate most are the class make-overs, with some decent work on translating 3.5 to pathfinder, updating races, skills and feats in minor ways, in my opinion the powers especially could have used some more work in balancing things out, overall the book has some decent touches making it decent enough to recommend and ALOT better than I have come to expect from 3rd party products, I got decent hopes for their own input of products seeing bits and pieces of their work in psionics unleashed.
I think they pretty much followed paizo's example to the letter, though in retrospect they could have been a bit more innovative rather than copying this example from the start, but as a base to expand upon it works fairly well and they did some work on making it a better fit.
My main issue I have with their lack of work in balancing the powers, the work I appreciate most are the class make-overs, with some decent work on translating 3.5 to pathfinder, updating races, skills and feats in minor ways, in my opinion the powers especially could have used some more work in balancing things out, overall the book has some decent touches making it decent enough to recommend and ALOT better than I have come to expect from 3rd party products, I got decent hopes for their own input of products seeing bits and pieces of their work in psionics unleashed.
Most of the psionics fans considered the system mostly balanced, and only had issues with certain things which were addressed.
Most of the psionics fans considered the system mostly balanced, and only had issues with certain things which were addressed.I think they pretty much followed paizo's example to the letter, though in retrospect they could have been a bit more innovative rather than copying this example from the start, but as a base to expand upon it works fairly well and they did some work on making it a better fit.
My main issue I have with their lack of work in balancing the powers, the work I appreciate most are the class make-overs, with some decent work on translating 3.5 to pathfinder, updating races, skills and feats in minor ways, in my opinion the powers especially could have used some more work in balancing things out, overall the book has some decent touches making it decent enough to recommend and ALOT better than I have come to expect from 3rd party products, I got decent hopes for their own input of products seeing bits and pieces of their work in psionics unleashed.
I'd put forward that most psionic fans are not overly concerned with balance though, it might be slightly better balanced than 3.5 was, there are still things I'd change or would have expected to be changed
I do not complain much about it, I thought 3.5 psionics was pretty decent if far from perfect and DSP hasnt made it worse with some small improvements and updates
though in retrospect they could have been a bit more innovative rather than copying this example from the start
Actually they did have a bit of prescience with the favored class bonus for power points. I objected to this because it "power creeped" the psionic races over the core ones. Then Paizo got the APG out with more options for favored class options... Which then pegged the psionics races more or less squarely on par.
As one of those psionics fans, I would argue that most of us believe that psionics is easily one of the most balanced splatbooks 3.5 ever put out. I certainly do. And I also feel that, while some of the given flavor is non-standard for fantasy, much of the mechanics--power points in particular--feel more like how casting should work than the Vancian system ever did.
Right. The thing is the tricks that let one bypass that limitation are still there, albeit weaker than they were in XPH.Any Psion takes the following path to power
-Psicrystal Affinity
-Psicrystal Containment
-Overchannel
-Quicken Power
-Psionic Meditation
-Psionic Endowment/Greater
-Empower Power (Optional-Blasters only)
-Expanded Knowledge: Schism (If not a Telepath)
-Talented (Optional)
Note that, aside from Schism, all of those options are available to a sorcerer in one way or another (at least to some degree). Well, not the fiddling around with psionic focus, which is irrelevant to a sorcerer.
I don't like Schism either, but I would phrase it as "I don't like Schism", not that psionics is flawed. Similarly, I don't like the spell Simulacrum (for example), but I wouldn't say magic is flawed because of it.
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I have just 'dismissed' my psionic character from one of our current games due to 'shine' issues. As a level 6 telepath, I felt I was simply to good at the social non-combat parts of the game. I think the best way to gauge why psionics is OP is to gauge the powers to UM's spell creation rules.
The DSP book converted psionics to pathfinder, but I don't feel they used the same level of effort put foth by paizo.
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Right. The thing is the tricks that let one bypass that limitation are still there, albeit weaker than they were in XPH.Any Psion takes the following path to power
-Psicrystal Affinity
-Psicrystal Containment
-Overchannel
-Quicken Power
-Psionic Meditation
-Psionic Endowment/Greater
-Empower Power (Optional-Blasters only)
-Expanded Knowledge: Schism (If not a Telepath)
-Talented (Optional)Note that, aside from Schism, all of those options are available to a sorcerer in one way or another (at least to some degree). Well, not the fiddling around with psionic focus, which is irrelevant to a sorcerer.
I don't like Schism either, but I would phrase it as "I don't like Schism", not that psionics is flawed. Similarly, I don't like the spell Simulacrum (for example), but I wouldn't say magic is flawed because of it.
I'd also note that's 8 feats, plus a lot of damage (every time you overchannel) Since concentration isn't a skill anymore, you're risking losing the power everytime you overchannel. Don't forget your Schism manifests at a lower manifester level.
I'd also note that's 8 feats, plus a lot of damage (every time you overchannel) Since concentration isn't a skill anymore, you're risking losing the power everytime you overchannel. Don't forget your Schism manifests at a lower manifester level.
Right. The thing is the tricks that let one bypass that limitation are still there, albeit weaker than they were in XPH.Any Psion takes the following path to power
-Psicrystal Affinity
-Psicrystal Containment
-Overchannel
-Quicken Power
-Psionic Meditation
-Psionic Endowment/Greater
-Empower Power (Optional-Blasters only)
-Expanded Knowledge: Schism (If not a Telepath)
-Talented (Optional)Note that, aside from Schism, all of those options are available to a sorcerer in one way or another (at least to some degree). Well, not the fiddling around with psionic focus, which is irrelevant to a sorcerer.
I don't like Schism either, but I would phrase it as "I don't like Schism", not that psionics is flawed. Similarly, I don't like the spell Simulacrum (for example), but I wouldn't say magic is flawed because of it.
And, really, I don't even begin to understand how people can still be using the 15 minute adventuring day. I do my best to keep the PCs feeling the crunch and having a reason to be out and about, dealing with things on a timer, or otherwise not able to just kill room one, retreat, come back a day later and kill room 2, rinse and repeat. Even in Kingmaker, where there often are only one or two encounters a day, my PCs are novaing.
And casters can certainly Nova each encounter as well. And better, to boot.
And, really, I don't even begin to understand how people can still be using the 15 minute adventuring day. I do my best to keep the PCs feeling the crunch and having a reason to be out and about, dealing with things on a timer, or otherwise not able to just kill room one, retreat, come back a day later and kill room 2, rinse and repeat. Even in Kingmaker, where there often are only one or two encounters a day, my PCs are novaing.And casters can certainly Nova each encounter as well. And better, to boot.
I am not arguing that novaing is a smart move tactically in a standard adventure, I'm saying it's still there and was hardly touched.
I guess I'll have to see how their Psionics Expanded turns out to really be the judge.
Also I'll say that the book smells like burnt peanut butter. WTF?!
Our goal with Psionics Unleashed was indeed to update the 3.5 ruleset into Pathfinder. We have loads of ideas and concepts that we want to present, but to present them we need a finished rule system to build upon. Considering the number of people who wanted an upgrade of the core book first and more material later, we chose to do one book which was backwards compatible (as far as we could) and then focus on new stuff in the upcoming books.
Psionics Expanded, our second book, is already under way, we have released Part 1 as a single PDF and we have two other parts waiting for illustrations.
In PsiEx we present classes such as the Aegis, who forms a combat suit from ectoplasm, the Exemplar, who channels psionic energy into his allies, the Marksman, who is the ranged combatant extraordinaire, the Vitalist, who binds all allies into a collective and strengthens them and finally, the Tactician, who uses the Collective, but to enhance his allies and drive co-operation and group-think.
Dreamscarred Press did exactly what the overwhelming percentage of their respondents told them they wanted... adjust and retool the XPH into a Pathfinder compatible format.
So if Paizo is going to do anything with psionics, the first thing you kiddies need to give up is backwards compatibility with the old system because someone else already did that gig.
What's the point of Paizo doing psionics?
a) To do a psionics version for PF? It has been done by DSPb) To bring psionics-lovers more on board? in which case they need to see your first comment above, because that is what the 'lovers' want
c) To 'fix' the psionics system for the haters, who don't care either way anyway? What's the point.
I'm not even sure there is a need for Paizo to do a psi book at this time, if they wished they could always make a licensing arrangment to include the DSP material into the Golarian setting as well as PFS use.
There isn't.
I have just 'dismissed' my psionic character from one of our current games due to 'shine' issues. As a level 6 telepath, I felt I was simply to good at the social non-combat parts of the game. I think the best way to gauge why psionics is OP is to gauge the powers to UM's spell creation rules.
The DSP book converted psionics to pathfinder, but I don't feel they used the same level of effort put foth by paizo.
I think they used as much effort as three part-timers with day-jobs could put into it, to be fair.
Psionics Expanded, our second book, is already under way, we have released Part 1 as a single PDF and we have two other parts waiting for illustrations.
Speaking of, I haven't heard anything about additional work...
As one of those psionics fans, I would argue that most of us believe that psionics is easily one of the most balanced splatbooks 3.5 ever put out. I certainly do. And I also feel that, while some of the given flavor is non-standard for fantasy, much of the mechanics--power points in particular--feel more like how casting should work than the Vancian system ever did.
I'm still waiting for someone to implement a smarter Power Point (mana) system. I'd rather see smaller pools, with the cost of abilities scaling down as you gain levels. I played a game where we went to a fairly high level (18) and I was pumping out augmented level 9 powers like they were candy (specifically the area effect level drain from Complete Psionics).
For example, at level 1, you have a pool of ~18-20 points, 1st level powers cost 7-8 points. As you go up in levels, your pool goes up slowly, while the cost of 1st level powers goes down. By around 13th level, 1st level powers become free. Every time a new level of powers are gained, their cost is high, allowing you to cast 2-3 of them, but making lower level powers significantly cheaper.
I would love to play Psionics again but I don't think that will ever happen (unless a GM runs a 3.5 game). DSP did 'rewrite' psionics for pathfinder, but they didn't do a very good job in my opinion. Not to mention it doesn't say Paizo on the book, so no GMs in my area would use it.
I showed up the DSP party a little late and it seemed that most things were done already. I tried to have a little input about feats and the power of the classes/races and was simpely written off. The biggest problem I have is with the Psion. Dispite having limited powers know, its still the Wizard of the Psion world. Yet it gains extra class stuff as a Sorcerer. The Soulknife gave them much trouble too. I'm not sure if it got balanced before hitting the press, but the tipical responce was "Your just trying to brake the character, the class is perfect as is."
Well Snopaws, does it help that a large help that a large chunk of the Psionics using community has said "yes" to DSP's update. I can understand mistrust of 3rd parities especially if they were around for the train wreak that was 3.0 supplements, however at some point they need to get over it.
The Pathfinder Wizard gets extra stuff, so does the Sorcerer, both have more tactical flexibility then a Psion. Wizards get 3, Sorcerers 5, Psions 4. Wizard gets a free familiar. Sorcerers get free bonus spells. Psions get to nova :P
The Soul Knife was a bad class, really bad. Which is why it was so hard, basically rebuilding the class from scratch. Again you joined late but there were a number of fans and testers during the open testing that helped number crunch it, much the same way the cavalier got number crunched in APG. The first go on the Soul Knife was an overshoot but it did get brought back. Maybe thats what you read and misunderstood. I can see about digging the drafts out of personal archive and you can look at the differences as it progressed. May change your mind. Is it a bit strong? Maybe, but any class that can shift it's Wealth by Level off it's main weapon (cough Magus cough) does on paper generally look nicer.
Anyone who says the Soul Knife was perfect "as was" in 3.5 never played one or tried to use it a serious villain. Under powered, to say the Healer may have been on par or maybe better doesn't do it justice.
I would love to play Psionics again but I don't think that will ever happen (unless a GM runs a 3.5 game). DSP did 'rewrite' psionics for pathfinder, but they didn't do a very good job in my opinion. Not to mention it doesn't say Paizo on the book, so no GMs in my area would use it.
I agree that DSP didn't make a perfect system (IMO). But I doubt that Paizo would do a better job; take a look at the Words of Power system as an example.
Well Snopaws, what did you expect to change radically from 3.5?
Power point system? Everybody wanted to keep that.
Psions got a few tweaks in the same way that Wizards did.
Psychic Warriors got some new toys in the warrior paths, but as one of the most balanced classes in 3.5 not a huge amount was going to change - they basically just got up-gunned to Pathfinder standard.
Soulknives got a complete overhaul from top to bottom, and boy did they need it in the same way that the barbarian, fighter, ranger and paladin got overhauls in pathfinder. The new soulknife can go up against a fighter and stand his ground, as opposed to having to run and hide from a monk.
Wilders got surge bonds in the same way that sorcerers got bloodlines - in fact they arguably got less, as sorcerers got extra bloodline spells while only the Student wilder gains any extra powers at all.
In short, the classes were upgraded very much the way that Paizo did the core classes.
Rules? Likewise, such as needed it were streamlined and simplified.
Powers? Again, these were changed along the lines that Paizo set out for Pathfinder - with particular attention paid to the metamorphosis powers, just as Pathfinder addresses polymorph.
Perhaps one reason there were few radical changes were that there didn't need to be many radical changes.
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Powers? Again, these were changed along the lines that Paizo set out for Pathfinder - with particular attention paid to the metamorphosis powers, just as Pathfinder addresses polymorph.
OK for the sake of being fair, this is one thing I ABSOLUTELY FREAKING LOVE about DSP psionics. The metamorphosis powers are extremely well designed and useful, unlike Polymorph for the most part. The changes and bonuses you get are codified and you don't have to look up a monster to see if it has x, y, or z.