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Hi, I thought I had this all sorted out, but recent rules discussion in my group have made me doubt things.
A Familiar:
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of
Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s
normal HD total, whichever is higher.
Does this mean the familiar gains feats as it levels? To my mind "feats" are an effect that are dependent on HD.
Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the
familiar’s base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will
+0) or the master’s (as calculated from all his classes),
whichever is better. The familiar uses its own ability
modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any of the other
bonuses that the master might have on saves.
Does this mean a familiar has no save-progression (other than its master's implicit progression)?
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the
familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an
animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever
is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability
modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers,
some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to
use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception,
Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
This suggests that familiars gain skillpoints as they level (meaning, as their master levels. Is this the case? How many skillpoints?
...
Do familiars get attribute bonuses at every 4th HD?
Effects relating to HD are spells like Sleep, Color Spray or Blasphemy. The familiar doesn't gain feats because he doesn't really level up. It doesn't gain new HD, it only follows the progression of its master. A familiar is not a real creature, it's a part of its master soul in the body of an animal (or some other creature).
Does this mean a familiar has no save-progression (other than its master's implicit progression)?
Exactly, a familiar base ST progress with those of its master.
This suggests that familiars gain skillpoints as they level (meaning, as their master levels. Is this the case? How many skillpoints?
No, Familiars don't gain skillpoints. For each skill and at any level, they have either the skill ranks of the base animal or of their master, which ever is the higher.
Do familiars get attribute bonuses at every 4th HD?
As I already said, familiars don't really level up, so no, they don't attribute bonuses.
Does this mean the familiar gains feats as it levels? To my mind "feats" are an effect that are dependent on HD.
Yes.
Does this mean a familiar has no save-progression (other than its master's implicit progression)?
Correct. Familiar basics states that you use either the familiar's base saves (and lists what those saves are) or the master's saves, which ever are better.
This suggests that familiars gain skillpoints as they level (meaning, as their master levels. Is this the case? How many skillpoints?
No, familiars do not gain skill points as the core states that you use either the skill ranks for a creature of that type or the master's skill ranks, which ever is better. But if you do wish to go that route, it would be 2+int modifier (what both animal and magical beast get).
Do familiars get attribute bonuses at every 4th HD?
Yes.
My group looked over the rules and did a fair bit of discussion over this topic. The wording in the core could go either way (Noir le Lotus' interpretation or the one I've listed above). We looked over the game effects at various levels and realized that without allowing for feats and HD gain, the familiar becomes less and less useful and more likely to die.
Once the interpretation goes towards allowing "virtual" feats (as the familiar will lose them if they lose their status as a familiar), then the familiar becomes more useful at higher levels.
Example: Deliver Touch spells becomes pretty well suicidal for a familiar at higher levels, 0' reach, has to enter the enemy's square causing an AoO, but if familiar has taken dodge/mobility/spring attack, it has a chance of doing so and surviving.
Currently the group's 15th level sorceress has a pseudo-dragon that has those "extra" feats and stat gains. Our interpretation has allowed the familiar to stay useful, but still cautious as it can still be taken out fairly easily if loiters where it shouldn't.
The RAW states that the familiar can deliver touch spells for the wizard. The wording suggests that this is intended to be melee touch spells, but doesn't exclude the possibility of range touch spells, which can always benefit from the +1 or +2 size bonus familiars usually have.
I remember doing this all the time in 3e but I honestly can't recall if that was in the rules or a house rule of the GM with whom I was playing at the time.
The RAW states that the familiar can deliver touch spells for the wizard. The wording suggests that this is intended to be melee touch spells, but doesn't exclude the possibility of range touch spells, which can always benefit from the +1 or +2 size bonus familiars usually have.
I remember doing this all the time in 3e but I honestly can't recall if that was in the rules or a house rule of the GM with whom I was playing at the time.
a touch spell is a spell with a Range of touch, spells that require a ranged touch attack are generaly effect spells with a Range other than touch, and are thus not touch spells. No having your raven deliver that acid arrow or scorching ray spell for you.
a touch spell is a spell with a Range of touch, spells that require a ranged touch attack are generaly effect spells with a Range other than touch, and are thus not touch spells. No having your raven deliver that acid arrow or scorching ray spell for you.The RAW states that the familiar can deliver touch spells for the wizard. The wording suggests that this is intended to be melee touch spells, but doesn't exclude the possibility of range touch spells, which can always benefit from the +1 or +2 size bonus familiars usually have.
I remember doing this all the time in 3e but I honestly can't recall if that was in the rules or a house rule of the GM with whom I was playing at the time.
That all makes sense but is too bad. Perhaps the ability to fire ranged touch spells (and not from sitting on your shoulder - make the familiar like a spell relay) is an ability that would interest high-level wizards when their familiar stops getting new abilities, rather than piling on a bunch of feats?
Of course, that's way off topic for this particular thread.
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The familiars never gain new HD from their Wizard 'owner' leveling. This was covered back in the 3.5 days and has not changed with the Pathfinder RPG. For spells and other effects that reference HD, they have the listed bit, but that's it. They gain no new feats, no new skill points, no ability points, etc.
Familiars and HD
“Familiar Basics: Use the basic statistics for a creature
of the familiar’s kind as described in the Pathfinder RPG
Bestiary, but with the following changes.” Page 82 Pathfinder Core Rule Book
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of
Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s
normal HD total, whichever is higher.
What effects are related to the number of HD.?
“As additional Hit Dice are
added, other abilities increase in power as well. Additional
Hit Dice usually results in better attack bonuses, saves, hit
points, and skills, as well as more feats.” Bestiary page 295
Ability boost, feats, and skill points are an effect of the number of HD a creature has.
When dealing with familiars you have to take what is in the bestiary into account.
Number of feats?
number of feats=1+[(HD-1)/2] thus the number of feats a creature has is an effect of the creatures HD.
Now I could do the same thing for ability boost and skill points but I think I have already made my point.
A creatures BAB is normally determined by HD as is hp, but the familiar specific rules over ride the general rules in this case.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Familiars and HD
“Familiar Basics: Use the basic statistics for a creature
of the familiar’s kind as described in the Pathfinder RPG
Bestiary, but with the following changes.” Page 82 Pathfinder Core Rule BookHit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of
Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s
normal HD total, whichever is higher.What effects are related to the number of HD.?
“As additional Hit Dice are
added, other abilities increase in power as well. Additional
Hit Dice usually results in better attack bonuses, saves, hit
points, and skills, as well as more feats.” Bestiary page 295Ability boost, feats, and skill points are an effect of the number of HD a creature has.
When dealing with familiars you have to take what is in the bestiary into account.
Number of feats?
number of feats=1+[(HD-1)/2] thus the number of feats a creature has is an effect of the creatures HD.Now I could do the same thing for ability boost and skill points but I think I have already made my point.
A creatures BAB is normally determined by HD as is hp, but the familiar specific rules over ride the general rules in this case.
Sorry, but that's incorrect. Feats, skills, and the like are not "effects."
This has come up several times before, and the folks at Paizo have backed me up on this. I think it was also clarified somewhere by WotC back in the 3.0/3.5 days, and the wording hasn't really changed much.
Effect is not defined by pathfinder so you must use the words normal meaning. "anything brought about by a cause or agent." Webster's New World College Dictionary fourth editon pg.453
The HD is the agent for deturmining the number feats a creature has.
"Creatures gain one feat at 1 Hit Die and one additional feat for every 2 Hit Dice above 1.” Bestiary page 296
You deturmine the number of feats a creature has based on its HD, thus feats are in this case an effect of a creatures HD.
So by RAW a familiar would gain feats. Now I will give you that may not be RAI. And from what you are saying, RAI is that familiars do not gain feats. I have not seen these post.
I go with what would be more fun, as long as it does not unbalance the game, and I do not think it would cause a problem.
In the end the rule need to be more clear on this area, and means more than just a post on the forms by one of the writers. So until they change how it is sayed in the core book I am going with familiars gain feat as a GM and as a player and see other wise as a house rule.
Having fun is the aim of the game.
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The HD is the agent for deturmining the number feats a creature has.
"Creatures gain one feat at 1 Hit Die and one additional feat for every 2 Hit Dice above 1.” Bestiary page 296
You deturmine the number of feats a creature has based on its HD, thus feats are in this case an effect of a creatures HD.
So by RAW a familiar would gain feats. Now I will give you that may not be RAI. And from what you are saying, RAI is that familiars do not gain feats. I have not seen these post.
Except that the familiar doesn't actually gain HD or levels. A familiar uses it's masters character level or it's normal HD, whichever is higher when determining effects related to HD. Things that have effects related to HD for instance are the spells Sleep and Color Spray. Familiars also don't get their own skill points since they have ranks in skill equal to whatever the base creature has or what their master has, whichever is greater. A familiar also uses it's masters BAB instead of it's own, again letting us know that the familiar does not actually gain HD or levels.
Old question, old answer. The familiar retains its own hit dice and does not acquire more. They aren't animal companions and they aren't intended to be.
if they retain their level from before they where a familiar then how would you determine that level?
Darkness falls across the land, the midnight hour is close at hand
Creatures crawl in search of blood, to terrorize y'all's neighborhood
And whosoever shall be found, without the soul for getting down
Must stand and face the hounds of hell, and rot inside a corpse's shell.
Necroing is bad, yadda yadda.
if they retain their level from before they where a familiar then how would you determine that level?
They retain their hit dice, which is different from their level.
If you check the stat blocks for the normal familiars, you'll see that they only have one hit dice (can be seen next to their HP in a parenthesis). Here's the bat as an example.However, Improved Familiars such as the Faerie Dragon have three hit dice, which means that they possess one additional feat compared to the normal familiars.