I have a player in my group whose character is starting to get a little tiring.
The character in question is a 10th-level human monk who has put all of his general feats into Fleet, thereby giving him a base land speed of 90 ft. (and an insane jump check to boot). He also picked up Deflect Arrows, Mobility, and Spring Attack as his bonus monk feats.
He then proceeds to come out from behind total cover, smacks some enemy aside the head, then gets back behind total cover--over and over and over again. Alternatively, he will make several jump checks as part of his movement to get to and from a safe place in similar skirmishing fashion.
Due to the nature of turn-based combat, this tactic makes him nigh invulnerable in most terrain.
The only ways I know of to thwart this are to have the enemies prepare actions to make ranged attacks against him when he pops out (often thwarted by his Deflect Arrows feat), have the enemies move up to and around his total cover (he simply moves elsewhere and most enemies can't hope to keep up with him anyways), or to have the battle in a large open area with little to no cover (which isn't prudent or realistic most of the time).
How can I do a better job at challenging this particular player character?
Sounds like this player has come up with a way to make the Monk work in your campaign. Why punish that?
As for concerns about invulnerability - obviously this Monk is performing single standard attacks, so I'm doubting he's doing much damage.
Ready the enemies melee attack for the Monk and smack him when he comes in. Most monsters of appropriate CR will severely outdamage a Monk engaging in this kind of tactic.
Well unless he has the PHB II feats which let him make multiple attacks then he's getting a single attack a turn at level 10. This is a pretty underwhelming build. Lots of mobility but really low damage. I wouldn't worry about it too much aside from occasionally having an enemy Ready An Action to attack him as soon as he get's within range. Kind of like how you can Ready An Action in case of a charge.
One of a monk's most powerful abilities is his Flurry of Blows and this guy is basically forgoing it for the option of not being hit very often.
Now if he had fidangled a way to get a full-round attack during his movement then he might need a stern crushing.
[edit] Hit him with a tanglefoot bag.
Sounds like this player has come up with a way to make the Monk work in your campaign. Why punish that?
Who said anything about punishing him? I'm trying to SAVE him. His own build is beginning to make the game unfun and uninteresting for him. That means he has failed as a player and I've failed as a GM. I'm looking for new ways to challenge him in order to make the game fun again for everyone involved.
Now if he had fidangled a way to get a full-round attack during his movement then he might need a stern crushing.
[edit] Hit him with a tanglefoot bag.
Such as when he gets the party wizard to polymorph him into something with pounce?
That isn't the worst of it I assure you.
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If he morphs into something with pounce he can't both pounce and leave in the same round. It only functions on a charge, which is distinctly different from a spring-attack. Since a charge is a full-round action which requires movement (negating the 5ft. step) his turn would end instantly in that event.
I'd recommend having him specialize in combat maneuvers and help his team by interrupting those who are being especially annoying. Since he can "hit and run" these, the opponent will have little way to respond to the threat.
Make him fight a blue dragon in a desert.
If he morphs into something with pounce he can't both pounce and leave in the same round. It only functions on a charge, which is distinctly different from a spring-attack. Since a charge is a full-round action which requires movement (negating the 5ft. step) his turn would end instantly in that event.
I'd recommend having him specialize in combat maneuvers and help his team by interrupting those who are being especially annoying. Since he can "hit and run" these, the opponent will have little way to respond to the threat.
Yeah, I forgot about that when posting.
Make him fight a blue dragon in a desert.
Well that certainly solves the problem...for one fight...
That's the question, should you make most of your encounters designed to take his advantage ? That's certainly possible, the bestiary has lots of monsters fast enough to get to the monk, or with another way to best him (yay bulette), but that can get a little annoying for him too.
Maybe one risky fight once in a while is enough.
I'm sorry, I thought you where talking about him being OVER powered.
The vital strike feats would help if you're core Pathfinder. They'll make each of his blitzkrieg's hit harder.
If you don't mind non-core then there is a series of feats from the PHB II that give you extra attacks as part of a spring attack.
It's kind of tricky to qualify for them though, first one is BAB +12... so probably best to go with the Vital Strike feats. Perhaps let him drop a couple of those Fleets in exchange. Roleplay that he goes into the mountains and trains for a month punching trees.
I tend to agree about trying not getting sucked into being annoyed by the tactics (which are pretty annoying as they are defensive, but don't sound broken).
BUT, if you really want to metagame against his go-to routine, to "encourage" them to branch out a bit, you could always go for an achilles heel of monks, like flying, ranged combat foes. cover is harder to get and even if flight is available, it won't be at ungodly speeds. Deflect arrows won't help much against rays (but the monk AC vs touch attack is pretty great).
other thoughts - foes fighting in formation with reach weapons and combat reflexes, foe with a good form of improved grab, a great grapple check and readied attack, various DR that monks struggle with, battlefield control spells (these have been covered already) or mundane (caltrops, pits, etc). Aquatic or aerial campaign?
but, probably the best idea is to give him something to worry about other than himself. In combat, who protects the squishies, for example? or better yet, challenge the player out of combat.
How about swapping some of those Fleet feats with Combat Expertise, Dodge, and Step Up. This way he can use his BAB to boost his AC while standing still and benefiting from Flurry of Blows. Step Up will make him stick to casters and reach weapon wielding foes like white on rice. Encourage him to help his party members with flanking for attack bonuses and sneak attack. There's feats like Vexing Flanker (PHB II) which will increase the bonus he receives from flanking as well.
If he's tired of his current play-style and character choices, then it's simply time for a change.
Go train in the mountains!
Invisiblity, high Stealth and Spring Attack/Shot on the Run, fire shield, pits with bear traps, Swallow Whole, caltrops, Spike Stones, Slow, Mirror Image, Project Image, Ready an Action, Trip, Patrification, Charm/Dominate, Full Plate/Shield/Dodge/Combat Expertise/Fight Defensively/Barkskin/Shield of Faith, Gorgon's Fist, Stunning Fist, Reach, cliff, multiple ranged opponents (or ranged opponent with high BAB and Rapid Shot/Many Shot), tanglefoot bag, aquatic encounter, grease/sleet storm, solid fog, web, fear (make him run away at super fast speeds!), hold person, Charisma Poison (I assume it's the monk's lowest stat), etc. etc.
The solution to this problem begins and ends with readied actions.
He'll pull off his around-the-world-spring attack once. After that, people get into position and ready actions.
Everybody has a better attack bonus than a monk, and will do more damage on a hit. Maybe not everyone, those weakling wizards need to do other stuff, but warriors types will outperform monks easily.
The monk gets a decent defence with this, but he gives up virtually everything he has in way of offence. You cannot flurry, so you get the weaker attack bonus (though it doesn't make that much of a difference on earlier levels, because the -2 for virtual two-weapon fighting goes away, too). You usually cannot use a combat manoeuvre - and even if you do, what good does it do you? You go there, trip the guy, and retreat, giving him time to stand up (of course, he could walk up to someone, take his weapon, run back and drop it somewhere, which is nasty - but after that, why avoid the guy?)
All you can do is a single attack (and monks kinda live off their many attacks).
I'd wager that in most circumstances, the enemy will just ignore the little gnat, take out his friends, and then be ready for him.
You don't want to trade attack actions with warriors when you're a monk.
Ready a grapple.
Or, if he is that bored, talk with him about staging his character's death, and let him roll a new one.
From a DM's perspective, I don't see a problem with this. Doing moderate damage while being extremely difficult to hit is sortof what I think a martial artist should be.
I agree; it's like he's an archer, but worse (because an archer can usually make a full attack at range). If the party isn't frustrated by his low rate of damage, then I don't see what the problem is.
Flying creatures have the speed and the monk might find it interesting to use his jump bonus to reach low flying foes instead of avoiding them.
Waist deep water will slow him down while creatures with swim speed will narrow the gap greatly.
The total cover might actually be a creature (come to hide behind that roper... I mean stalactite ;) ).
enemy spellcasters should be his speciality, but they have some tricks in their sleeves, like invisible walls...
Grease is invisible and unpleasant. Sovereign glue, however, is even more fun, especially for a barefooted monk. Caltrops in the grass are also rather hard to see.
Foes can be clever in their own positioning. If the monk moves away behind some cover, you only need to move away from the cover so that he has to burn more than one move action to leave the monk exposed to ranged attacks (and have a giant let him deflect a hefty boulder ;) ). Readied actions are also fine to pull of against him. The trigger is just when the monk comes within reach. Then just trip, graple cut him with a poisoned blade... whatever.
Something as trivial as an ambush should also work, if the attecker is a dangerous grappler.
I have to admit it feels weird to be ganging up on the gimpy monk, but I kind of like it! I have a thing for Paladins, myself, in PF they just seem to screaming for a take down (other than falling from grace, yada yada).
not that I want to threadjack or anything. :-D
As I'm understanding it, your question is not how to stop this tactic, but rather how to allow the player to continue using it while making the game more enjoyable for him, the rest of the players, and yourself. Is that a correct interpretation?
Here are some things you can do:
-Put enemies in hard-to-reach places so that he's the only one who can easily deal with them.
-Include monsters that also have significant mobility, and use them to threaten the other party members who like to stay out of combat. Mounted opponents with Ride-by-Attack work well for this. This will give the monk someone that only he is really suited to handle, and by putting the threat on a different party member you can get around his ability to avoid damage.
-Make it so that more combats come down to stopping something from happening rather than just killing the bad guys before they kill you. Since depletion of HP is no longer a threat, the fact that he can duck behind cover won't make him seem quite so invincible.
-Offer him the chance to retrain Fleet into different feats. He'll still have the Monk movement bonus to employ his favorite strategy, but it'll give him more options.
Use a forested area(so he has to use up movement), a druid, and spells like entangle and wall of thorns.
But if the character is still boring for him, suggest multiclassing or, as has already been suggested, staging his death.
I've found that forested areas don't really work too well. He simply leaps up and down the tree branches to get to an out of the way spot and to use Spring Attack (after all there's no rule anywhere saying you are limited to one jump check per move). The only thing that changes in this setting is that his movement is largely vertical rather than horizontal. Difficult terrain does little to hinder him either, as he simply "jumps over it."
As I'm understanding it, your question is not how to stop this tactic, but rather how to allow the player to continue using it while making the game more enjoyable for him, the rest of the players, and yourself. Is that a correct interpretation?
Precisely. I don't know whether or should find it humorous or upsetting just how many posters come in here and condemn me for "punishing the monk player" simply because they haven't read the thread.
Here are some things you can do:
-Put enemies in hard-to-reach places so that he's the only one who can easily deal with them.
-Include monsters that also have significant mobility, and use them to threaten the other party members who like to stay out of combat. Mounted opponents with Ride-by-Attack work well for this. This will give the monk someone that only he is really suited to handle, and by putting the threat on a different party member you can get around his ability to avoid damage.
-Make it so that more combats come down to stopping something from happening rather than just killing the bad guys before they kill you. Since depletion of HP is no longer a threat, the fact that he can duck behind cover won't make him seem quite so invincible.
-Offer him the chance to retrain Fleet into different feats. He'll still have the Monk movement bonus to employ his favorite strategy, but it'll give him more options.
Some good advice there. I'll take it under consideration. Thanks.
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I just posted about this in another thread, so its fresh in my mind:
Try to come up with some chase scenes for him against something like a low flying opponent. RD, you've seen the first episode of Dawn of Defiance right (or are you a different RD than the one on WotC boards?)? Something like that should be a good test of his speed.
I just posted about this in another thread, so its fresh in my mind:
Try to come up with some chase scenes for him against something like a low flying opponent. RD, you've seen the first episode of Dawn of Defiance right (or are you a different RD than the one on WotC boards?)? Something like that should be a good test of his speed.
Who else would post about such odd scenarios as invisible hydra wagons and faster than light monks?
Well, its good to see ya round these parts then!
Been here for 3 months. If Pathfinder continues to be half as good as I think it might be, I may well be around for a while longer.
The PHB II feats: Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz should make his attack routine more interesting (if you don't mind going a little beyond core). I'd encourage the player to invest in the Vital Strike feat chain as well. If there isn't much room for these feats, maybe have him re-train upon gaining a new level? (basically trading in some of those Fleet feats for more versatile ones?) Or trade in a monk class feature for some of these feats. (Not sure how far you want to deviate from the core). Three dimensional battle fields should be the norm from now on… rooms with balconies, cliff-sides, a lake of lava with outcroppings to jump about.
From a DM perspective, readying actions to grapple and trip or cast a debilitating spell should prove interesting challenges for the super mobile monk. Also, providing magical treasure that gives the PC versatility would help. And combats with multiple foes (as opposed to 3 or less) should be common.
I have to add something about the "Ready an action" thing: while it opens the monk to a counter-attack, it opens the enemies to a full attack from the monk's party.
If there are several enemies around, this is even better. The monk can attack either of them (and, knowing about the Ready an action, he'll attack those who have already acted). If all of them Ready their action, they can't do a full-attack... and thus are more vulnerable to the other members of the monk's party.
Readying an action also changes the foe's initiative order. And, IIRC, if he can't take his readied action, he loses his round.
Just my two coppers.
I have to add something about the "Ready an action" thing: while it opens the monk to a counter-attack, it opens the enemies to a full attack from the monk's party.
If there are several enemies around, this is even better. The monk can attack either of them (and, knowing about the Ready an action, he'll attack those who have already acted). If all of them Ready their action, they can't do a full-attack... and thus are more vulnerable to the other members of the monk's party.
Readying an action also changes the foe's initiative order. And, IIRC, if he can't take his readied action, he loses his round.
Just my two coppers.
This is pretty much what's been happening. The monk's blinding speed and skirmish tactics cause much confusion for the enemy and a few simply stand around expecting to be the next one struck down "by the phantom" at times. It's kind of like Mel Gibson in the Patriot: The red coats didn't know what was hitting them and stood around in confusion half the time even though their comrades a few steps away were getting chopped up by a mad man with a hatchet.
As I'm understanding it, your question is not how to stop this tactic, but rather how to allow the player to continue using it while making the game more enjoyable for him, the rest of the players, and yourself. Is that a correct interpretation?Precisely. I don't know whether or should find it humorous or upsetting just how many posters come in here and condemn me for "punishing the monk player" simply because they haven't read the thread.
I guess I'm just a little thick, sorry. :-)
The only criticism I've seen you make is that this tactic is "boring" or "tiring". But I don't really understand how it's any more boring or tiring than a sword-using fighter standing in one place making melee full attacks, or a bow-using ranger standing in a different place making ranged full attacks.
If you go the "retraining in the mountains" route rather than the vital strike feats you could suggest some ranged feats and he could then take advantage of his flurry of blows class feature and throw shurikens at enemies (or he could take throw anything and throw kamas, nunchucks, sais, sianghams, and quarterstaves).
(or he could take throw anything and throw kamas, nunchucks, sais, sianghams, and quarterstaves).
LOL flurrying with thrown quarterstaves is a great visual.
silly, but so are monk weapon restrictions...
(or he could take throw anything and throw kamas, nunchucks, sais, sianghams, and quarterstaves).LOL flurrying with thrown quarterstaves is a great visual.
silly, but so are monk weapon restrictions...
I was imagining the same thing when I thought of that lol. I think throwing any of those weapons would look pretty funny but, I think quarterstaves is by far the funniest visual. Speaking of which if you throw a double weapons does it only deal 1 sides damage? I'm assuming it does but I'm kind of curious
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I was imagining the same thing when I thought of that lol. I think throwing any of those weapons would look pretty funny but, I think quarterstaves is by far the funniest visual. Speaking of which if you throw a double weapons does it only deal 1 sides damage? I'm assuming it does but I'm kind of curious(or he could take throw anything and throw kamas, nunchucks, sais, sianghams, and quarterstaves).LOL flurrying with thrown quarterstaves is a great visual.
silly, but so are monk weapon restrictions...
You two need to watch Kung Fu Hustle.
You two need to watch Kung Fu Hustle.I was imagining the same thing when I thought of that lol. I think throwing any of those weapons would look pretty funny but, I think quarterstaves is by far the funniest visual. Speaking of which if you throw a double weapons does it only deal 1 sides damage? I'm assuming it does but I'm kind of curious(or he could take throw anything and throw kamas, nunchucks, sais, sianghams, and quarterstaves).LOL flurrying with thrown quarterstaves is a great visual.
silly, but so are monk weapon restrictions...
I have lol. I'd like to figure out how to play bards like the 2 assassins in that movie. Maybe remove all the bardic music abilities and replace them with something similar to sneak attack. You make a perform check with a DC of 10 or 15 to throw the 1st blade thing and for every 5 you beat it by you throw another blade. All of them deal a d4 or d6 :P
The only criticism I've seen you make is that this tactic is "boring" or "tiring". But I don't really understand how it's any more boring or tiring than a sword-using fighter standing in one place making melee full attacks, or a bow-using ranger standing in a different place making ranged full attacks.
Seems to me that it's boring because it's a contrived combination of actions repeated ad infinitum. I guess it's what happens when you base your character around a "build" and then find out your build doesn't work to your satisfaction.
Put it in other terms and it's easy to see why it's boring:
Fight 1: Mage: "I cast haste, then fly, then grease on the bad guy's sword."
Fight 2: Mage: "I cast haste, then fly, then grease on the bad guy's sword."
Fight 3: Mage: "I cast fly, then haste, then grease on the bad guy's sword."
Of course, your example of full-round attacks while standing still is boring also. I haven't seen anyone actually do that as a routine, though.
Zo
The monk hit-and-run strategy completely removes the opponent from the equation, which is why it's so much more boring. All opponents simply turn into progress bars of varying lengths. With a full-round attack build that progress bar hits you back, so there's something different each time. That's why the core way to make things more interesting is to give the opponents something they can do other than trying to hit the monk that still causes problems for him.