In description, it does not say anything about staves being limited to the spell's class. Could a wizard use a Staff of Life (which contains Heal)? Thanks.
In description, it does not say anything about staves being limited to the spell's class. Could a wizard use a Staff of Life (which contains Heal)? Thanks.
Staves are spell-trigger items, which require the spell to be on your spell list. So under most circumstances, no, a wizard can't use a staff of life. Use Magic Device still works though.
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In description, it does not say anything about staves being limited to the spell's class. Could a wizard use a Staff of Life (which contains Heal)? Thanks.Staves are spell-trigger items, which require the spell to be on your spell list. So under most circumstances, no, a wizard can't use a staff of life. Use Magic Device still works though.
Thank you for the excellent help.
Some spell trigger items were obviously first created by multi-class types because they contain spells exclusive to arcane and divine lists.
In those cases, you are restricted to using the spells on the staff that are on your class list(s).
Also staves that have both arcane and divine spells can be charged by both types of casters.
The staff of life is pretty limited, but for example, the staff of Healing could be partially used and charged by a bard since cure serious is on the bard spell list.
It does matter. Theoretically a bard with the right feats could craft a staff with his cure spells and other bard spells, by the rules, a cleric would not be able to do anything with that staff other than rapp you on the knuckles with it. Because the Bard Cure spells being arcane are NOT on the cleric spell list.
LazarX, you usually have really good perspectives, but in this case you're mistaken.
James is right that only scrolls (as spell-completion items) are inherently arcane or divine. Anyone with a spell on their class list can activate that spell from a spell-trigger device, like wands or staves. In the case of staves, they are still limited to only activating the spells on their list, if there are others that they do not have.
I also agree regarding recharging - as long as you have one of the spells, and expend the appropriate level slot for the highest spell in the staff, you are covered. A somewhat different perspective is the case where a staff has a druid only spell as the highest, with a cleric recharging it. The cleric couldn't use that spell from the staff, but can recharge it (as long as they had another spell). As could a bard or wizard if they have a different spell in the staff.
Depends on the original caster from everyone other than a bard it's divine, from a bard it's arcane. All bardic spells are arcane spells even if they mimic divine spells.
Actually, bardic spells never mimic divine spells. Because they're arcane spells from the bard spell list. Cure light wounds is not a divine spell. A cure light wounds cast by a cleric or druid or other divine caster is a divine spell. Because a divine caster casts it and its power comes from a divine source.
You could argue that spells that are only on divine spell lists are divine spells, but even that is not true, as you never know whether a future arcane class might get the spell on their list. For example, I could see a White Mage class that casts arcane spells and has all the healing stuff and stuff like true resurrection.
It does matter. Theoretically a bard with the right feats could craft a staff with his cure spells and other bard spells, by the rules, a cleric would not be able to do anything with that staff other than rapp you on the knuckles with it. Because the Bard Cure spells being arcane are NOT on the cleric spell list.
That's not right: staves are not arcane or divine. They store raw magical power in the form of a captured spell effect. All you need in order to use it is to have the spell on your list.
If you want to recharge a staff, you must be capable of casting at least one of the spells in the staff (not just theoretically, like a wizard 1 using a staff of frost) and give up one spell slot equal to the highest-level spell in the staff.
That means that a bard with cure light wounds on his list of spells known could recharge a staff of healing with one of his 3rd-level slots
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Another interesting thing: can you recharge a staff with Use Magic Device, as long as you can actually spend a slot as required? Would a sorcerer be able to use Use Magic Device to pretend that he was able to cast heal or raise dead and then spend a 6th-level slot to recharge a staff of life? He can certainly pretend he could cast those spells to activate the staff.
Another interesting thing: can you recharge a staff with Use Magic Device, as long as you can actually spend a slot as required? Would a sorcerer be able to use Use Magic Device to pretend that he was able to cast heal or raise dead and then spend a 6th-level slot to recharge a staff of life? He can certainly pretend he could cast those spells to activate the staff.
I think that's beyond the use of Use Magic Device.
He could, as you said, activate the staff. But so could a 1st level Wizard. The dual requirement of actually being able to cast a spell on the staff, as well as having the spell slot available pushes this pretty far away from just activation.
That said, it seems like a reasonable house rule, depending on the game. I'd use something like scroll DC for it though (20 + caster level to cast the spell), or higher (maybe 25+). Failure = lost slot for the day, no retry that day (since this is done throughout the time you are preparing spells).
As far as I can tell UMD does not specifically let you recharge a staff that you normally couldn't.
However I don't see anything game-breaking about letting you use the "Use Wand" DC 20 use of UMD to pretend that a spell is on your class spell list. Like a 12th level Sorcerer spending a 6th level slot and a DC 20 UMD roll to recharge 1 charge on a staff of life. It's still an equivalent expenditure of party resources. You certainly couldn't use UMD to recharge a staff if you don't have a spell to recharge it with though.
As far as I can tell UMD does not specifically let you recharge a staff that you normally couldn't.
However I don't see anything game-breaking about letting you use the "Use Wand" DC 20 use of UMD to pretend that a spell is on your class spell list. Like a 12th level Sorcerer spending a 6th level slot and a DC 20 UMD roll to recharge 1 charge on a staff of life. It's still an equivalent expenditure of party resources. You certainly couldn't use UMD to recharge a staff if you don't have a spell to recharge it with though.
I would probalby allow it only to cast a 6th level spell a cleric would need to be level 11. So they would need to duplicate a 11th level cleric (dc 31 20 +11).
Not unfair, someone dedicated to UMD will have a +21 around level 10 or 11 anyway.
As far as I can tell UMD does not specifically let you recharge a staff that you normally couldn't.
However I don't see anything game-breaking about letting you use the "Use Wand" DC 20 use of UMD to pretend that a spell is on your class spell list. Like a 12th level Sorcerer spending a 6th level slot and a DC 20 UMD roll to recharge 1 charge on a staff of life. It's still an equivalent expenditure of party resources. You certainly couldn't use UMD to recharge a staff if you don't have a spell to recharge it with though.
I would probalby allow it only to cast a 6th level spell a cleric would need to be level 11. So they would need to duplicate a 11th level cleric (dc 31 20 +11).
Actually, they would only need to duplicate the lowest level spell on the staff. They only have to match one of the spells on the staff to recharge it, it doesn't have to the the highest level one.
If I make a staff that has cure light wounds and heal on it, and bard with cure light wounds can recharge it by giving up a level 6 spell slot.
A sorcerer would still need to be 12 level to have 6th level spell slot to give up.
As far as I can tell UMD does not specifically let you recharge a staff that you normally couldn't.
However I don't see anything game-breaking about letting you use the "Use Wand" DC 20 use of UMD to pretend that a spell is on your class spell list. Like a 12th level Sorcerer spending a 6th level slot and a DC 20 UMD roll to recharge 1 charge on a staff of life. It's still an equivalent expenditure of party resources. You certainly couldn't use UMD to recharge a staff if you don't have a spell to recharge it with though.
I would probalby allow it only to cast a 6th level spell a cleric would need to be level 11. So they would need to duplicate a 11th level cleric (dc 31 20 +11).
Actually, they would only need to duplicate the lowest level spell on the staff. They only have to match one of the spells on the staff to recharge it, it doesn't have to the the highest level one.
If I make a staff that has cure light wounds and heal on it, and bard with cure light wounds can recharge it by giving up a level 6 spell slot.
A sorcerer would still need to be 12 level to have 6th level spell slot to give up.
A bard would have to give up a 6th level slot, so would a sorcerer...BUT a sorcerer can't cast any spells that are listed on the Staff of Life (nor can a Bard), which is what the question is in regards to.
A sorcerer would have to emulate the ability to cast one of those spells AND give up a 6th level spell, as you said. We were merely discussing, since it is not RAW, how we would adjudicate a UMD roll to emulate having a spell on your class list for the purposes of RECHARGING a staff.
As far as I can tell UMD does not specifically let you recharge a staff that you normally couldn't.
However I don't see anything game-breaking about letting you use the "Use Wand" DC 20 use of UMD to pretend that a spell is on your class spell list. Like a 12th level Sorcerer spending a 6th level slot and a DC 20 UMD roll to recharge 1 charge on a staff of life. It's still an equivalent expenditure of party resources. You certainly couldn't use UMD to recharge a staff if you don't have a spell to recharge it with though.
I would probalby allow it only to cast a 6th level spell a cleric would need to be level 11. So they would need to duplicate a 11th level cleric (dc 31 20 +11).
Actually, they would only need to duplicate the lowest level spell on the staff. They only have to match one of the spells on the staff to recharge it, it doesn't have to the the highest level one.
If I make a staff that has cure light wounds and heal on it, and bard with cure light wounds can recharge it by giving up a level 6 spell slot.
A sorcerer would still need to be 12 level to have 6th level spell slot to give up.
A bard would have to give up a 6th level slot, so would a sorcerer...BUT a sorcerer can't cast any spells that are listed on the Staff of Life (nor can a Bard), which is what the question is in regards to.
A sorcerer would have to emulate the ability to cast one of those spells AND give up a 6th level spell, as you said. We were merely discussing, since it is not RAW, how we would adjudicate a UMD roll to emulate having a spell on your class list for the purposes of RECHARGING a staff.
And I am saying that for consistancy, the sorcerer only needs to emulate one of the spells on the staff, not the highest level one, nor should the sorcerer have to emulate a certain caster level.
That is how I would handle it.
And a Bard1/Sor12 can recharge the staff because he has cure light wonds on his bard spell list and can forego a 6th level sorceror spell slot?
No because Cure Light Wounds isn't in a Staff of Life, I don't know what that guy is talking about lol.
And I am saying that for consistancy, the sorcerer only needs to emulate one of the spells on the staff, not the highest level one, nor should the sorcerer have to emulate a certain caster level.That is how I would handle it.
Well emulating having a spell on your spell list is closest to the use staff/wand usage of UMD which is only a DC20. Personally I'm fine with this. I think the other gentleman was saying that DC20 seems too low for such a use, that DC 31ish would be more to his liking.
Consistency is great, but you're suggesting arbitrary things to a houserule OF a houserule to make them consistent with...what? What would be a fair DC to you, just the 20?
And I am saying that for consistancy, the sorcerer only needs to emulate one of the spells on the staff, not the highest level one, nor should the sorcerer have to emulate a certain caster level.That is how I would handle it.
Well emulating having a spell on your spell list is closest to the use staff/wand usage of UMD which is only a DC20. Personally I'm fine with this. I think the other gentleman was saying that DC20 seems too low for such a use, that DC 31ish would be more to his liking.
Consistency is great, but you're suggesting arbitrary things to a houserule OF a houserule to make them consistent with...what? What would be a fair DC to you, just the 20?
20 seem like a fair DC to me because you still have to have a level 6 slot available to give up.
I am trying to stay consistent with the existing rules. The existing rules for charging say you have to have the spell. There is nothing in the charging rules requiring your to match the caster level of the staff, so I simply don't see where the caster level requirement is coming from. The caster level requirement feels like something completely out of left field.
So... where did we land on this question?
In last night's game, an NPC Sorceress claimed she could raise the dead. I am in deep crap now if I don't figure out how this is possible. Thanks.
Pax
There are several ways:
1) If she is a Samsaran, she could have Raise Dead or Resurrection on her list because Witches get them.
2) If she is at least 14th level, she can cast Temporary Resurrection.
3) A Ring of Spell Knowledge could give her the ability to cast any of the above mentioned spells, albeit for a higher level slot.
4) There are several ways she could use UMD to cast it. A staff with Raise Dead or Resurrection in it would work with a DC 20 UMD check, as would a Page of Spell Knowledge (also a DC 20 UMD check to spoof having it on your class list).
5) She could be a double-talking b!+$* who was referring to any number of Necromancy spells like Animate Dead that she could cast to "raise" the dead.
3) A Ring of Spell Knowledge could give her the ability to cast any of the above mentioned spells, albeit for a higher level slot.
4) There are several ways she could use UMD to cast it. A staff with Raise Dead or Resurrection in it would work with a DC 20 UMD check, as would a Page of Spell Knowledge (also a DC 20 UMD check to spoof having it on your class list).
I thought Rings capped out at 4th level spells.
And, seeing as Pages of Spell Knowledge use your own spell slots and list, can you actually fake that? (I mean... you could I imagine, but it seems weird that it would actually do anything in that case.)