One thing that I've been surprised by with the Druid animal companion options is that at level one a small character has three options (Roc, Pteranodon, and Dire Bat) for picking an animal companion that is a flyer and medium sized, thus allowing for a flying mount.
I could have seen these as growing in size at level 4 or 7, but right from level 1 is just surprising with all of the advantages (and disruptions for the DM) that flying characters can have at low levels of play.
Now, I can see the arguments being made that players have to invest points in ride and handle animal. Ride might not be essential for a low level Druid, but handle animal is something that the class will almost always take a decent amount of. Further the character needs to invest in an exotic saddle (not much of an investment), and might want to pick up some of the mounted combat feats. So a little investment is being made, though I don't think it is that heavy of a trade-off.
The other argument is that with the Pathfinder flying rules it is a lot easier to get shot out of the sky, so I do concede that this is a tool that can be used by the DM at times.
Still, flying can be a potent ability at the low levels. Many monsters would be unable to affect the druid and mount, and the ability to get good intel and move past traps and other barriers is something that most DMs might not be anticipating.
Seeing for many years at-will flying characters in action, one of the main problems is that it creates this dynamic where the DM has to go out of his way to create and target the flying character. The rest of the party is on the ground and so the adventure and encounter design is normally oriented for that "2 dimensional" level of play. When you have a flying character then the DM has to spend more time and effort factoring in how to hide things from the party, how to challenge the party with traps, and how often to have encounters that can threaten flying characters.
It's not that this can't be done, and I think DMs can pull it off, but it definitely changes the dynamic of the game and gives more work for the DM.
I guess this post is here for two reasons, first, just me wondering why flying was baked into level one, rather than scaling it up to level 4 or 7 when the fly spell appears? It seems like in terms of power scale that this is when flying opportunities ought to have appeared.
Second, just to highlight for DMs out there... this is a real option in the rules, heck, it's even legal in Pathfinder Society.
*runs off to make a Pterasaur riding halfling druid.*
Um... where are you getting this? I do not see any of those options listed for a level 1 druid. I see ape, badger, bear, bird (eagle/hawk/owl), boar, camel, big cat, small cat, crocodile, dinosaur, dog, horse, pony, shark, constrictor snake, viper snake, and wolf.
It would be positively insane to allow a Roc at level 1, even for a medium druid. Those things are enormous!
Fatespinner wrote: Um... where are you getting this? I do not see any of those options listed for a level 1 druid. I see ape, badger, bear, bird (eagle/hawk/owl), boar, camel, big cat, small cat, crocodile, dinosaur, dog, horse, pony, shark, constrictor snake, viper snake, and wolf.
It would be positively insane to allow a Roc at level 1, even for a medium druid. Those things are enormous!
Page 53, second paragraph in the second column. That paragraph references the bestiary.
In the Bestiary the animal companions are listed on page 316.
It should be noted that all of the creatures that can be animal companions have a special animal companion entry on them. So for a Roc you can get a medium sized "baby" one to have as your best buddy at level 1, and at level 7 it grows to large size. An animal companion Roc never becomes gargantuan size.
As for other official sources, there is list forum posting by Josh who runs the Pathfinder Society.
Fake Healer wrote: *runs off to make a Pterasaur riding halfling druid.* I know... it might not be the most optimal build in the world, but make a Druid 1/Alchemist 1+ and then do bombing runs with alchemical fire, napalming the countryside.
Fake Healer wrote: *runs off to make a Pterasaur riding halfling druid.* Already been done in Eberron (although they were mostly Barbarians)...
Plus, flying at 1st level isn't as much a no-no as it used to be.
In Bastards of Erebus (Council of Thieves Part 1) there is a flying Race called the Strix that have no CR adjustment, so theoretically you could play one at 1st level with no penalties...
It's in the Bestiary. For instance a companion Roc is Medium (not gargantuan) and doesn't recieve stat boosters until 7th level.
I don't know if there is supposed to be an alternative animal companions chart in the core book but technically you can get a Dire Bat, Roc or Pteradon Animal Companion. Land speed is going to be an issue in some games (Flyers need room) but it's a decent pick.
Actually this is less feasible than it looks.
The Dire Bat companion starts with an 8 Str, the Pteradon a 9 Str, and the Roc a 12 Str. Of course, "a single man-sized roc egg can net 4,000 gp" - so not likely to start with.
Flying mounts (unless changed in Pathfinder), can only carry a light load. With an 8 Str, the Dire Bat can only carry a 26 lb. rider. The Pteradon a 30 lb. one. Even halfling females weigh a minimum of 27, and an average of 30. That's without a single piece of gear (or clothing). Even the Roc only carries 40.
First Strength boost comes at 3rd level, but even then this is unlikely to work in most cases (but great for emergency escapes).
That's a good point. It does largely come down to the Roc with it's 13 pound "strike package" to play with. I guess it depends on the character build at that point.
I had a player make a flying mount character once. We were running a module that required them to go underground a lot. A flying mount is great when it comes to open skys, but turns to crap when in tight spaces. You have to consider the manueverability of what's flying (room to stop and start). Also, are you taking into account HD? IIRC you can only have an animal of equally your level or less versus the animal's hit dice.
EDIT: I guess it can be shrank as per above... :D
Kakarasa wrote: I had a player make a flying mount character once. We were running a module that required them to go underground a lot. A flying mount is great when it comes to open skys, but turns to crap when in tight spaces. You have to consider the manueverability of what's flying (room to stop and start). Also, are you taking into account HD? IIRC you can only have an animal of equally your level or less versus the animal's hit dice.
EDIT: I guess it can be shrank as per above... :D
That's true, a flying mount isn't always going to be useful, but there is a wide range of situations where they are useful.
I think the HD issue you might be thinking of is an older 3.5 ruling. Animal companions in pathfinder have been reworked and are uncoupled from the normal monster progression, instead having one table that all animal companions share for their progression.
Unlike in 3.5 where certain animals became available at certain levels, now instead any animal that can be a companion is available at level 1, and then has a level 4 or level 7 bump.
Mok wrote: Kakarasa wrote: I had a player make a flying mount character once. We were running a module that required them to go underground a lot. A flying mount is great when it comes to open skys, but turns to crap when in tight spaces. You have to consider the manueverability of what's flying (room to stop and start). Also, are you taking into account HD? IIRC you can only have an animal of equally your level or less versus the animal's hit dice.
EDIT: I guess it can be shrank as per above... :D
That's true, a flying mount isn't always going to be useful, but there is a wide range of situations where they are useful.
I think the HD issue you might be thinking of is an older 3.5 ruling. Animal companions in pathfinder have been reworked and are uncoupled from the normal monster progression, instead having one table that all animal companions share for their progression.
Unlike in 3.5 where certain animals became available at certain levels, now instead any animal that can be a companion is available at level 1, and then has a level 4 or level 7 bump. Sweet... just looked this up with the SRD.
Kakarasa wrote: Mok wrote: Kakarasa wrote: I had a player make a flying mount character once. We were running a module that required them to go underground a lot. A flying mount is great when it comes to open skys, but turns to crap when in tight spaces. You have to consider the manueverability of what's flying (room to stop and start). Also, are you taking into account HD? IIRC you can only have an animal of equally your level or less versus the animal's hit dice.
EDIT: I guess it can be shrank as per above... :D
That's true, a flying mount isn't always going to be useful, but there is a wide range of situations where they are useful.
I think the HD issue you might be thinking of is an older 3.5 ruling. Animal companions in pathfinder have been reworked and are uncoupled from the normal monster progression, instead having one table that all animal companions share for their progression.
Unlike in 3.5 where certain animals became available at certain levels, now instead any animal that can be a companion is available at level 1, and then has a level 4 or level 7 bump. Sweet... just looked this up with the SRD. Can you link to it?
Druid
Scroll down to the Animal Companion section. Each animal has a level where they "upgrade" usually 4th or 7th.
The sections on the expanded animal companion list, both in the Core rulebook and the Bestiary, are not in the SRD, but if you look up the individual animal entries in the SRD you'll find the details on having one as a animal companion, such as with the Roc.
Can someone find PF rule related to flying and encumberance?
Mok wrote: The sections on the expanded animal companion list, both in the Core rulebook and the Bestiary, are not in the SRD, but if you look up the individual animal entries in the SRD you'll find the details on having one as a animal companion, such as with the Roc. Hmmm. Would've been less messy if they had a table of them somewhere in the Beastiary to make it easier to find them all...
Fake Healer wrote:
Hmmm. Would've been less messy if they had a table of them somewhere in the Beastiary to make it easier to find them all...
Yeah, there is a table in the actual book, but the SRD doesn't have it.
William Timmins wrote: Can someone find PF rule related to flying and encumberance?
I don't think it was transferred over from 3.x. If you look at the description of the Griffon for example it indicates that a Griffon can carry light/medium/heavy loads.
While it seems unrealistic it's definitely in the realm of the rule of cool taking precedence.
William Timmins wrote: Can someone find PF rule related to flying and encumberance? Interesting...
So, in Pathfinder there is no rule saying you can only fly when only carrying a light load.
Instead it is just a check penalty. How you trace it is by looking in the armor check penalty section. Then you just refer to the encumbrance section.
The end result is that the Roc animal companion at level one, with a strength of 12, can fly with 130 lbs on its back. Sure, that heavily loaded down it would have a check penalty of -6, which is awful, but it's still doable.
So breaking down the fly skill of the Roc:
+1 rank
+3 for class skill
+4 for Dex 19
+3 Skill Focus: Fly
+0 Average maneuverability
Total +11
So that means at 4th level it could hover at will with a light load.
At 6th level it could hover at will with a medium load.
At 7th level it becomes large size and encumbrance will matter much less.
Still, at 1st level if you went into a medium load then you'd be, with the above Roc build, at +8 fly check, which is doing ok as you can only crash rolling a 1 if you move below half speed, or if the Roc is attacked while in flight. At 2nd level this would be solved with one more rank in fly to get you to a +9.
Looking at the Dire Bat:
+1 rank
+3 for class skill
+3 for Dex 17
+3 Skill Focus: Fly
+4 Good maneuverability
Total +14
That means with a light load (30 lbs) it can hover at will.
At 4th level the dire bat will be able to hover with a medium load (60 lbs.) which should be enough for any tricked out small character.
Note: I'm focusing on hover because it is a huge effect in the game. Having played flying characters before in 3.5, when you get to a point where you can hover then dungeoncrawling is completely viable as you're basically like any other character in terms of positional movement, save that you are constantly hovering there, avoiding pressure plates, pits, crevasses, etc.
I was going to say that Fly should receive double armor check penalties based upon swim getting double but it appears that swim penalties got removed from pathfinder...
William Timmins wrote: Can someone find PF rule related to flying and encumberance?
Yes there is something mentioned if u read under barding(only light or medium barding for flying mounts i think)
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I have played druids for years, and would like to share some lessons I have learned from experience.
First, let me debunk the weight myth. Weight is really a non-issue, because any smart druid with a flying mount will have Ant Haul prepared. Ant Haul is a level 1 druid spell that triples a creature's carrying capacity for 2 hours at level 1.
Second, I can now list the real disadvantages that I know of through experience of playing a druid. I list them in order of importance:
1. A flying animal companion cannot realistically attack effectively (or do anything other than fly, really) while mounted and in the sky. This is BY FAR the number 1 biggest disadvantage, and you really don't think about it much until you find yourself in that saddle... When I had a snake, my snake could attack and grab (and later constrict) to wonderful effect, while I ran around doing other things - and I had a purchased basic riding dog for non-attacking movement. Experience taught me that an enemy grappled by my snake was as good as dead. It was like having a fighter cohort - I felt like two players almost, not one. When I had a dire bat, my bat's contribution to combat paled in comparison. Yes, I was in the sky, which is a huge advantage for me, but at the expense of basically "sacrificing" my companion. It felt as though I'd simply taken a domain that included the "Fly" spell. I felt like one player, not two. The only thing the bat was ever good for, besides aerial movement, was blindsense. I kept the bat for the "cool" factor, though I knew a crocodile, for example, would have been better.
2. Smart opponents. This depends largely on the DM, but I think it's 100% fair for my DM to have a cleric cast the Orison Create Water (2 gallons, 25-foot range at level 1) all over my baby roc's wings. Daze, an arcane Cantrip, can be devastating. A simple crossbow hit can seriously disrupt flight, not to mention spells like Ray of Enfeeblement. Particularly strong against animal companions are will-save spells, notably Color Spray, Cause Fear, and Silent Image. Animals, even druid companions, are easily frightened by the sudden image of a dragon. ... and if a scared roc goes flying in the opposite direction at max speed, the druid on it can't easily fall off to stay in the arena. I've even seen an enemy ranger use Wild Empathy to ground a flyer, and a magus use Lock Gaze to cause a roc to hit a tree. Every spell I've mentioned is a level 1 or level 0 spell...
3. Going underwater (surprisingly not yet discussed) can be an issue for flyers. No flying companion has a swim speed or Hold Breath and all flying companions have low CON compared to other animal companions. Plus, the druid typically puts zero ranks into the companion's Swim skill because the druid used the 2 ranks available for Fly and Perception. Now, any smart druid with a flying mount should have Touch of the Sea (or Air Bubble, or both - both level 1 druid spells) prepared - which are good spells for character players, too. However, each of those spells lasts only 1 minute at level 1, and my experience has been that any session involving swimming typically includes more than one swimming section Example: in a dungeon, there's an underwater passage -> cast Touch of the Sea and swim through underwater tunnel to next passage -> venture on foot through tunnels for 30 min. until coming to another underwater passage! A level 1 druid gets only 1 level spell per day, 2 per day including the wisdom bonus spell. If the druid prepares Ant Haul and Touch of the Sea, it's a big sacrifice. Chances are, the druid has not prepared Touch of the Sea and can't afford or find the scroll or wand and, therefore, the flyer can't swim. Even in Pathfinder Society, the 2 prestige points will more likely be spent on a wand of Cure Light Wounds or on armor with a low armor check penalty.
4. Difficulty underground (already discussed). The spell Reduce Animal can help, but that is a level 2 druid spell. A druid gets few spells per day compared to clerics, oracles, wizards, sorcerers... So saving slots for Ant Haul, Touch of the Sea, and Reduce Animal becomes a major pain, especially for any druid who would like to cast offensively.
5. A flying animal companion is overall weaker than ground animal companions in terms of AC/HP/attacks/damage. The baby roc has decent AC, but lacks scent, darkvision, tremorsense, etc. A unique aspect of having an animal companion is being able to have a special ability like blindsight, and all a roc has is low-light vision. The bat has blindsense, but is absolutely pathetic in terms of AC/HP/attacks/damage. I put this disadvantage last because, in real gameplay, the issue isn't the animal's weakness - it's the fact that the animal is simply too occupied serving as a mount to be able to do anything more useful (disadvantage #1 above).
All in all, if a druid wants a flying companion, having a good one requires major sacrifices (spell slots, having a companion good at combat, special animal abilities, and general companion availability for anything other than mounting)... And after all that, "Cause Fear" hits and away the flyer and druid go... LOL
If this is possible, why is it such an issue for classes like the Cavalier and Mounted Fury Barbarian to get flying mounts? Ditto for the Paladin (though one archetype explicitly gets one).
Plus Handle Animal seems like it was meant for you to do things like tame and train flying creatures for a mount.
But I never seen mention of anything like "Redblade the 10th level Fighter has trained a Hippogriff to be a mount. He has taught it the following tricks:..."
Not in any sort of official character writeup or adventure path, or even mentioned as what people have done with characters on this board. On the board they always come up with a way to have a monster cohort or boon companion, not use Handle Animal.
If someone has a flying mount in an official source it is something like those Sable Company Marines that get it from a Prestige Class or company membership.
Going as far back as 1e it wasn't this big a deal to get a flying mount. Lord Robilar was famous for riding a Griffon.
So what gives with this exactly? Druids don't have any problem getting one, but they have to wait a few levels if they are medium size. Summoners definitely don't have a problem if they want one.
So what is the problem for true melee classes?
sunbeam wrote: If this is possible, why is it such an issue for classes like the Cavalier and Mounted Fury Barbarian to get flying mounts? Ditto for the Paladin (though one archetype explicitly gets one).
That archetype doesn't get the flying mount until fairly high level and it comes with sacrifices most most self respecting munchkins aren't willing to make.
This has been talked about before, mostly in relation to a baby roc that a level 1 druid can get (I don't remember the specifics and I can't take a closer look right now).
Here they are for anyone interested:
the funny thing about flying mounts in general, they arent overly useful except for travel and scouting outdoors unless you are a ranged/spellcasting character. Granted I have had a player as a ranger work into a flying animal companion as a mount(giant eagle befriended and then taken as both cohort with leadership and AC) who consistently rained arrows down into combats from both semi close and fairly long range to avoid threats as needed.
In the end I did the same general thing to him that happened to one of the few similar fantasy references I know of with the same situation. In the book an elf was using a pegasus(sp?) to both drop some arrows into key points in the orc lines and direct the battle below. The orcs used ogre allies to launch large sized javelins into the pegasus to bring it down away from support. I did the same thing with a hold monster spell from a wizard hired by the bbeg just to handle the eagle rider in my game, landing him alone, around 200 feet away from the rest of the party surrounded by orcs. The archer survived, but not before the eagle was killed.
Asta
PSY
Whoa.. this Zombie thread went from 2010 to 2012... not complaining though because some good information here..
I would like to say as Playing a Gnome Druid (7th level now in Jade Regent!) it would not have mattered anyways about the flying animal companion because most Druids can Wildshape themselves into a Flying creature by level 4 (eagle,ect) and by 6th level they can wildshape into a small Air Elemental ( 4 feet tall.. weighs 1 pound) and fly Perfect 60 feet per round.
Also at 6th level you can Wildshape into a Tiny flying Creature... (Hawk or Raven)
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