The barbarian has the same power level as the fighter, but a much higher 'flavor level.'
The thing I like about the fighter is it fits so many concepts. Like my last concept was based on a Spartan. I decided to try a build that and it worked very well. A short sword and spear weilding fighter with a breast plate and large steel shield. Another was Knight in full plate riding a dire horse with a lance based on the knights of the round table concept.
I like the blank slate of the fighter class.
More specific styles might be good if you have no idea what you want to do with a fighter but I presonally like building my fighter to fit my concept. The only real issue is I usually can't be the conecpt till much higher level as would be the case with my Spartan concept.
I wouldn't mind some options, not at all. Nor would I mind maneuvers and stuff like that, as long as they remained totally Non-magical in nature.
For instance, I remember some feats that allowed you to use your shield bonus Vs. Ray spells, and another one that allowed you to deflect that ray with said shield. It is fantastic, but it's based on prowess alone, not magic.
Options like that are cool, but are not magical, and that's what I think should exist for the fighter, nothing magical or supernatural got it? It would keep the fighter a FIGHTER but with some neat abilities.
I wouldn't mind some options, not at all. Nor would I mind maneuvers and stuff like that, as long as they remained totally Non-magical in nature.
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I wholeheartedly agree with you. It is also my opinion that a fighter should stay non-magical. However, there are many different players, and a lot of them probably do not share our image of this metal-only fighter. But this is actually also a strong point of the sorcerer bloodline. Many people don't like Aberation tainted blood (or demon-enhanched power, or..)for their characters or other weirdness, therefore, there is the Arcane bloodline. The generic option for people who dont want some kind of half-monsterous character.
This is also true for the fighter. You can have a generic 'bloodline' (I keep on calling this bloodline, as I dont thinnk Fighting Style or similar is appropriate, as explained below) for the traditional metal-to-skin purist.
For the styles described by the flesh eating Bean; I hope I can say without you taking offense as those to be examples of exactly not what I meant. An archer, heavy infantry or cavalry is actually exactly the same as the fighter we have now. It is true that they are less generic, but their focus is still their sword/hammer/spear whatever.
Therefore, 'fighting style' would, at least in my opinion, not be any fix for this class other than make it stronger. Balance is not something I'm conserned with, but I don't think forcing the strenghts (no matter how specific those are) of any class beyond the scope of what is possible now is a good idea anyway. 'Bloodlines', on the other hand..!
Please look at this far from optimised example;
The fighter is a trained hunter and exposer of enemies of your belief (be they witches, shapechangers, enemies of the state..). They gain the following additional abilities;
-Diplomacy is a class skill.
-lvl3, Dishonorable mark, as a full-round action, the inquisitor can apply a mark an a creature he, or his allies have grappled and pinned. This takes the form of a hideous scar, somewhere normally visible unless the creature takes extra measures to cover the mark. Because of the special care taken when applying this mark (much to the discomfort of the victim), this mark cannot be erased easily by magic (you need at least a level 3 healing spell??). Also the mark is always visible if not covered with clothing, even if the target of the mark shapechanges or is disguised by an illusion spell.
-lvl6, Public Trail, the inquisitor can make a Diplomacy check to draw attention from everyone within hearing distance (DC is based on how many potential listeners there are? Like DC10 for <10 persons, DC20 >25 persons, DC15 otherwise?). If succesfull all listeners have a natural tendency to argee with the inquisitor and recieve a -2 to Will save against mind effecting abilities. No retries.
-lvl9, Gullible Audience, any crowd of people that is the effect of the Public Trail ability, must, if succesfull, also save vs. Will (DC 10 + 1/2 the fighters's level + the fighters's Cha modifier) or become fascinated. (Up to 1 person/lvl?? This is like the bards ability).
-lvl13, Force the Truth!, the inquisitor can, as a standart action, make an intimidate to force the target to speak. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. If succesfull, the target cannot tell something it knows is untrue. The target is not automatic unfriendly towards you afterwards (but may be so nonetheless!)
-lvl15, Detect Lies, The inquisitor gains +5 bonus to Sense Motive and +5 to Perception checks made to penetrate disguises. Also the inquisitor gets an automatic check to identify an disguise (Like the 3.0 Elf-ability to detect secret doors!)
Well, there you go, an non-fighting-style AND non-magic style option for your fighters (and it doesnt overshadow other characters!). This is probably a horrible example and should not be seen as a serious option, but I think the essence is good. Would you not rather play Bob the Fighter-Bodyguard/Inquisitor/Platoonleader!! Who, as being a fighter, can ALSO specialize in being a blowgun user/two-weapon fightig/heavy infantry/cavalier/dresses like a spartan fighter! I know I would!
As I'm actually typing these responses on a GSM, I'ts painfully slow. So please excuse any typing error. (English not my first language doesn't help much either).
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Your idea of "bloodlines" is excellent -- say, "fighting styles" which would add specialties to the fighter generalist (and not require the writing of 10 different 20-level classes -- God, that would be a project and a half). (I'm such a big fan of Tejon's Iron Mage that the spellcaster bloodline doesn't really appeal to me too much, but I can see working it in there.)
However, I'm glad to see civilized, constructive discourse here again and your ideas are good, so I'll do my best to remain civil and calm -- especially since the topic doesn't get me 'worked up.' ;)
I point no fingers and desire none pointed. I'm just here to think about the APG. All the homebrew and 3.5 splats in the world won't do me any good since I play PFS. It would give me no end of joy to get official materials that took my favorite class to a new level, so to speak.
To be fair, Bogs came up with the idea of a Bloodline like feature for Fighters. My idea was feats for Fighters that mimicked some of the cool encounter and daily powers from 4th Edition. No one has seemed that interested in doing that. That's ok. They can't all be winners.
I think the Fighting Styles (or whatever we call it) idea has the chance to add a lot of depth to the class. I'd be interested in a weapon master class, too, with a few special moves. If I recall there was something like it in Complete Warrior, maybe? One that focused on combat maneuvers and was able to even combine them in interesting ways would be an awesome controller-type.
HOW do you completely redo the fighter to be better and yet remain non-magical?I wouldn't. D&D is a fantasy game, where all the characters are essentially fantastic by mid to high levels.
I like the idea of the mundane fighter. Now saying that I think there is a lot of room for fighters with a more magical style. Could this be done with feats allowing a fighter to stay mundane if one chose to but open the doors to magical fighting style by choosing other feat chains. Or would new base or prestige classes do the job better. Could it be an option to replace a fighter's class features. Maybe instead of Armor Training or weapon training they get to select from list of fighter talents that offer a more fantasy like magical style of tossing fire balls in Mortal Kombat style.
I think my preference would be the class feature swapping. Maybe instead of weapon training they get a ability to do magical tricks with thier weapon. Add a couple of feats to help this as well and that opens quite few doors for the fighter to be more than just smashing people in the face.
Speaking of mundane, isn't the fighter, and maybe the cavalier, pretty much the only class which has no access to anything supernatural? The rogue can, if it so chooses, dabble in magic with minor/major magic and dispelling attack, the monk has its ki powers, the barbarian has the rage/rage powers (don't even try to brush these off as mundane) and the paladin and ranger have their spells and supernatural abilities as well.
A variant for the fighter which would replace either weapon or armor training with fighter talents or whatever would be great. They wouldn't all need to be supernatural, but something in the vein of what the rogue gets would be great, only for other purposes. That way, everybody wins. Those that want to keep playing the fop/combat machine can do so, while others can gain a few abilities to help him do stuff outside of combat.
A variant for the fighter which would replace either weapon or armor training with fighter talents or whatever would be great. They wouldn't all need to be supernatural, but something in the vein of what the rogue gets would be great, only for other purposes. That way, everybody wins. Those that want to keep playing the fop/combat machine can do so, while others can gain a few abilities to help him do stuff outside of combat.
Giving fighters talents might work, though you would have to be careful about how powerful they are. Rogue talents are about on par with feats. I personally wouldn't let fighter talents get any more powerful than the talents a rogue gets when under level 10.
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That's an interesting point, making fantastic versions of fighters. This would probably fit in well with the "bloodlines" idea, too, since you could have some more mundane ones, and some more fantastic ones, to appeal to different people. I don't think it should be all one way or the other, necessarily, since there are probably people who would enjoy both playstyles.
Agreed. I hope that the basic classes that Pathfinder makes are all as generic as possible in order to allow the most freedom for RP and development.
I know I'm harping on the idea but for those who want an entirely mundane Fighter, 4th Edition did a really good job of doing that but making the class interesting. I think there is a lot of inspiration there.
I know I'm harping on the idea but for those who want an entirely mundane Fighter, 4th Edition did a really good job of doing that but making the class interesting. I think there is a lot of inspiration there.
There is NOTHING mundane in someone sleeping off all wounds and healing in the middle of combat. 4th edition Sucks. Plain and simple. It may have it's jewels, but there is nothing mundane about it.
A variant for the fighter which would replace either weapon or armor training with fighter talents or whatever would be great. They wouldn't all need to be supernatural, but something in the vein of what the rogue gets would be great, only for other purposes. That way, everybody wins. Those that want to keep playing the fop/combat machine can do so, while others can gain a few abilities to help him do stuff outside of combat.Giving fighters talents might work, though you would have to be careful about how powerful they are. Rogue talents are about on par with feats. I personally wouldn't let fighter talents get any more powerful than the talents a rogue gets when under level 10.
Well, if they lost weapon training they'd be losing +4 to damage and +4 to hit at level 20, and a lot of the max dex AC and penalty reductions if he lost armor training, I think that's a pretty hefty price to pay. Weapon training and armor training also sound even more powerful than a lot of feats (weapon focus only gives a +1 to attack and it only affects a single weapon as opposed to +1 to attack and +1 to damage for a lot of weapons.)
Talents wouldn't have to be the only option, either. Something similar to what Man in Black mentioned like minor auras like the Marshal class used to have could be cool. That way he could at least grant people some bonuses when they're doing stuff outside of combat which he's not capable of doing. I liked the abilities the dungeoncrasher variant got, where he gained an AC bonus when activating traps and a bonus to breaking stuff. Makes him really handy to have in a dungeon filled with that stuff.
I could totally get behind a mundane fighter with command auras. That at least solves the problem of what to do when he can't reach the enemy. Inspire the ones who can.
I could get behind a Battlefield Commander core or early-entry prestige class.
Not everyone is a born leader.
If your rebuilding the class with talent trees (like SW saga) then that works really well, however without rebuilding into talent tree's it really does not work as well.
Unless ya replace weapon training or armor training with different "trees"
Leardership training or magical training and such. That would fit with the current build easy enough, new fighter only feat chains would also work well. Throw in a few PRC if needed and there ya go. Ya don't have to rebuild to open up new options
I saw that, I tiyed with the same ages ago, I do not like all the things he did, but did find some gems in there. Anyhow what he did will not work for the APG, but alt "trees" to take in place of weapon and armor training will
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There is NOTHING mundane in someone sleeping off all wounds and healing in the middle of combat. 4th edition Sucks. Plain and simple. It may have it's jewels, but there is nothing mundane about it.
Don't straw man me, I'm not talking about 4th Edition's rules in general I'm talking about the Fighter specifically. Ever looked at it? Interesting stuff in there like tripping with an attack that does normal damage, attacking, taking a 5ft step and attacking another target, adding Con modifier to damage with axes and hammers, slowing your opponent with heavy blades, and whatnot. Obviously, these things would have to be limited in number per day or per encounter but they make great entirely mundane spice (if that's not an oxymoron) for a fighter.
STRAW MAN!!!!!!
I have to agree with Xum the 4e fighter is more magic then mundane. He was not so much a fighter as a mage with a blade that acted like he was fighting while casting spells. YMMV of course
If I want to play a wizard I will, I do not what the wizard to be "re-skinned" as the fighter...
wizard:I cast fireball 10D6 reflex for half
Fighter : I use my shinning blade style 10d6 save for half
Sorry no, not a fighter, a manga fighter maybe but not a normal fighter
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I have to agree with Xum the 4e fighter is more magic then mundane. He was not so much a fighter as a mage with a blade that acted like he was fighting while casting spells. YMMV of course
Even if you discard half of them because they're implausible and a quarter because they heal (despite the fact that you can gain temporary hp with a Cheliax Trait and no one complains about it) you're still left with dozens of ideas for Fighter moves.
Since the Ranger-esque, Wizard-esque, Cleric-esque, and Sorcerer-esque ability trees were kinda what I was hoping for ALL the classes in the first place, I can't see myself really disagreeing too much with TOZ's suggestion of ability trees for the Fighter as well, the current incarnation being the "Armsman" tree and other trees replacing the bonus feats and such.
Having said that, Paizo can just do the same thing by just making other core classes. As long as they are balanced and do not outshine the Fighter at armed combat, I really don't mind that either. It's certainly a lot easier than completely re-writing a class that many people do find to be adequate regardless of the stomping and cawing on the internets.
Interesting stuff in there like tripping with an attack that does normal damage, attacking, taking a 5ft step and attacking another target...
In fact you can do that in pathfinder, it's called greater trip, in fact you can attack that guy with your opportunity, move five feet and attack with all your remaing attacks another dude. OR if you got Combat Reflexes there you could stay put and pretty much gain two opportunities against that fellow.
Obviously, these things would have to be limited in number per day or per encounter but they make great entirely mundane spice (if that's not an oxymoron) for a fighter.
I don't see how any fighter ability should be limited per day without being at least a little bit supernatural. What happens? He gets so tired he can't swing that way anymore? He forgets how to do it? It's part of his "code" to use it once per day? That's one of the greatest flaws of 4th edition, it simply makes no sense, like 80% of anything from that edition anyhow.
That's one of the greatest flaws of 4th edition, it simply makes no sense, like 80% of anything from that edition anyhow.
Or 80% of anything from ANY edition. 1st: pummeling with a quarterstaff is a thousand times more effective than attacking with it? 3rd: You can't die of starvation, thirst, or from falling off a 1,000-foot cliff?
That's one of the greatest flaws of 4th edition, it simply makes no sense, like 80% of anything from that edition anyhow.Or 80% of anything from ANY edition. 1st: pummeling with a quarterstaff is a thousand times more effective than attacking with it? 3rd: You can't die of starvation, thirst, or from falling off a 1,000-foot cliff?
Hehe, good points. But this is more like 8% of those editions, hehe.
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I don't see how any fighter ability should be limited per day without being at least a little bit supernatural. What happens? He gets so tired he can't swing that way anymore? He forgets how to do it? It's part of his "code" to use it once per day? That's one of the greatest flaws of 4th edition, it simply makes no sense, like 80% of anything from that edition anyhow.
Bah, don't tell me about stuff making sense in a world with Vancian magic.
Anyway, I'd certainly prefer things like this to be limited to once per encounter. That does make some sense. When you're fighting you don't spam the exact same move over and over, you change your routine, your target, your angle.
When you're fighting you don't spam the exact same move over and over, you change your routine, your target, your angle.
I agree with that, but being UNABLE to do it more than once is just plain odd.
And making sence is important, the Vacian System is MAGIC, so by definition they break the rules already, whereas the fighter does not.
Bah, don't tell me about stuff making sense in a world with Vancian magic.
Ok, I'll bite, I can see it not being the flavor you like but just how does it not make sense?
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Ok, I'll bite, I can see it not being the flavor you like but just how does it not make sense?
The idea that a Wizard would just up and forget something he spent the morning memorizing has always seemed so contrived to me. It's shocking that it comes from a book and didn't start its life as a game mechanic. It's even odder for a spontaneous caster like the Sorcerer. Why does the sorcerer run out of lvl 2 spells but still have power left over for more than twice as many level 1 spells? What sort of energy would act that way?
I understand that an encounter talent or x/day talent pushes the boundaries or possibility. You can justify it as a lucky hit or part of a kata or something. Or you could hate it and not use the talent alternate class feature. I guess I'd just like to see the alternate class feature.
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When you're fighting you don't spam the exact same move over and over, you change your routine, your target, your angle.I agree with that, but being UNABLE to do it more than once is just plain odd.
And making sence is important, the Vacian System is MAGIC, so by definition they break the rules already, whereas the fighter does not.
So you're saying fighters can't get nice things, or should be special. Got it.
Thankfully, all these systems agree with you, so players who want mechanical benefits when not fighting cannot have them, because the fighter must fight well and nothing else.
So you're saying fighters can't get nice things, or should be special. Got it.
No he said fighters can not have spells, which seem to be what you are wanting. Sorry man this is not the system for you then. Fighters are non magical, and are not casters
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No he said fighters can not have spells, which seem to be what you are wanting. Sorry man this is not the system for you then. Fighters are non magical, and are not casters
We always go back to this. No one is saying spells. I don't know how to be more clear about this. If some one wanted to fight and cast spells they could do their damndest at a gish in Pathfinder or play a Cleric.
I'd like to make a special attack that knocked my opponent prone and did damage without investing in a feat tree requiring an intelligence score I just can't afford in a 20-point buy and still be good at fighting. I'd like to have interesting weapon specific fighter abilities like adding con modifier to damage with really heavy weapons like the great axe and earthbreaker. I'd like a fighter that was competitive with the "top tier" classes. Pathfinder made some pretty big steps towards this. The Weapon and Armor Training class abilities are excellent. But Bonus Feats just aren't doing it for me in terms of making a PC that is both fun to RP (which the Fighter already is, IMO) and fun once initiative gets rolled.
Feats are your interesting ability, Just like a wizard who does not take spells can not do some things. If ya want to do something well you must invest in it.
Stuff your talking about are feats or a system rework, that effects all classes. This "fighters can't have nice things" crap is just that crap
If ya want spells or spell like powers the fighter is not for you, maybe try a paladin, closer to what your asking for.
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No he said fighters can not have spells, which seem to be what you are wanting. Sorry man this is not the system for you then. Fighters are non magical, and are not casters
So you're saying fighters can't get nice things, or should be special. Got it.
So Tome of Battle...but no, that's way too broken. My gods, it turns the entire game into a mockery of D&D.
I hated the theming of ToB (annoying long kung-fu names), but there's not much wrong with it otherwise. Just prevent the infinite combo from working, and done.
But fighters can't have nice things, got it.
You want magic fighters, Got it.
I do agree , the theme of the Tob was one of it's many flaws, gods that was bad.
But over all I disliked the whole subsystem. I count it among one of the worst books wotc put out, but YMMV
In your game maybe, you guys seem to have way different experience then any body I play with.
But the issue is not universal as you seem to think, if it was you would have near everyone agreeing with you. But ya don't it simply does not match your playstyle, that does not make it useless or in dire need of an overhaul.
I do agree, fighters could use more fighter only feats, maybe some alt training ability and kill that damned-able 2 skill per level I really pushed for that one.
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You want magic fighters, Got it.
I do agree , the theme of the Tob was one of it's many flaws, gods that was bad.
But over all I disliked the whole subsystem. I count it among one of the worst books wotc put out, but YMMV
I don't care what you call it, I want level 20 fighters to kill armies with swings of their swords. Whether it's magic fighting, or he's so damn good, they can't touch him, or he's gotten so good, regular people can't see him when he kills armies in 1 round. Why can't he do that? He's suppose to be good at fighting right? Spellcasters own the opposition at 20, but melee can't. That's wrong. If people disagree, then they are saying melee are as good as casters, and that's even more wrong. It's like saying they are same tier! Except they're not.
I hated ToB, but then I realized fighters don't have to just say "full attack". In fact, by giving them good standard action manuvers, it made them more fun and better mechanically.
And that's only from a fighting standpoint. Fighters can't do things mechanically well other than fighting. If they are made to do other things well, they don't fight well. It's insane that fighters can't at least get better skill points, more class skills, or is completely dependent on MAGICAL gear. So much for a non-magical fighter.
You say I want magic fighters. I don't really care one way or another. However, 3.5 and PF are saying we want magic fighters, because otherwise, they are unplayable.
what your wanting is not a fighter, and not anything I want anywhere near the name fighter, thats more over the top then a paladin. Sorry no. Nice for an wuxia/manga game but not in my standard fantasy, no that is clearly not a fighter
"I'm having fun, so there's no problem."
If you're not offering any insights garnered from your home game, you're offering nothing by simply saying "There's no problem."
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Which is the very thing you are doing. "I am not having fun in my home game the system is flawed"
Funny just as many people thing it is fine as think it is not. What your wanting is not a fighter, its some kind of manga based arcane warrior. May be fine but should not replace the fighter
It's not a fighter because he wants fantastic abilities, and you're defining fighters as the non-fantastic guys in a fantasy game. This is a bankrupt definition.
No it is not, killing whole armys with a wave of you sword passes fantastic into the realm of clearly magic. I want it no were near the non magic fighter.
And fighters pull off all kinds of fantastic stuff, a 20th level archery based fighter is as good as a freaking gun or better. whats he pull down 8 arrows or better in 6 secs?
I am fine with fantastic, outright magic is not a fighter.