Two-handed rogue

[Luei]

So, in DND Online, I use a rogue with a greataxe, and generally moderate stats, and I gotta say, it really kind of owns. What I'm wondering (and doubting), though, is how viable it would be in a PF game. I mean, with feats like Vital Strike, you could kill almost anything with a stealthy sneak attack, and in combat you'd do pretty good damage, even if it isn't sneak attack. Though I'm gonna go ahead and guess it'd be outclassed by a TWF rogue with optimized stats and many other builds.

[angryscrub]

click here

two handed rogue does fine against two weapon.

[KaeYoss]

Screw "viable". If you want to play that, go for it. It should do all right - though never forget that you're still a rogue (and in general won't be as good at dealing damage as a fighter), and if you just want a character that deals damage, a warrior class is probably a better fit for the concept.

If you want a character that does more than axe-murder people, like for instance scouting, spying, dungeon delving, lockpicking, trapspringing, swindling, racketeering or whatever, the rogue's your pony!

[Luei]

Yeah I know you can do about whatever you want in dnd, I was just thinking how effective it might be. And I think it would be pretty darned. Except for the mediocre stats needed for the build, you'd have a lot of freedom to choose more feats and abilities, since all you'd really need to focus on is your sneak attack and other stuff, since the axe would make up for a lot of the other shortcomings.

[Drillboss D]

To me, viable means the mechanics achieve that which you wanted your character to do. If you want a character who can sneak, bluff, catch somebody off guard and then kill them with a big axe, then a greataxe rogue is your most viable option.

[Alejandro Acosta]

If you want a 2 hander rogue try this:
Your stat array should look like this ++DEX>+CON>STR>INT>WIS>-CHA
r1 sneak attack 1d6, imp initiative, weapon finesse
r3 sneak attack 2d6, exotic weapon, Elven Curve Blade (ECB). A finesseable 2 hand weapon (deals 1d10 damage).
r5 sneak attack 4d6, desperate battler (gives you +1/+1 if you have no allies within 10 feet). Good for use on the surprise round. Alternately you can substitute a feat that gives you an extra 1d6 of sneak attack @ BAB +3 (sorry, I don't remember the name of the feat).
r7 sneak attack, 5d6, power attack (crank up that 2 handed weapon damage).
r9 sneak attack, 6d6, vital strike
r10 advanced talent (opportunist)
r11 sneak attack, 7d6, improved critical ECB
Make your ECB agile so you can add DEX to damage. Then add weapon pluses when you can. Also start working on step up & strike and maybe critical focus.

[Bigdaddyjug]

I built a ninja that uses a katana with both hands and does 68.75 average DPR at level 10.

The other option you have is something similar to what Alejandro recommended and involves getting Elven Curve Blade proficiency. The easiest way to do this is by being a half-elf. You don't actually need more than 10 Str to do this, but the build won't shine until you get the Agile enchant on your weapon. The other option is to get about 14 Str and take Power Attack.

In my opinion, the Str-based, katana-wielding ninja will do more DPR.

Edit: Alejandro, I just read your entire post. You have so much wrong in there. And Vital Strike is a terrible feat. I'm not going to go into it more than that, there was a 500+ post thread about how terrible Vital Strike was.

[Thomas Long 175]

Most people don't actually bother to look but a two hander rogue actually deals more damage to CR appropriate creatures than a dex based two weapon rogue.

Troubles with two weapon rogue:

• You require the agile ability in order to get any attribute score on damage otherwise you're severely lacking
  
• In order to get 2 weapons to +3 (the first level of enhancement bonus that begins to bypass DR) you need 36000 gold, the absolute maximum for offense at level 12, and that's without the agile ability on them.
  
• You have no inbuilt bonuses to hit, so with the -2 on to hit and the split of enhancement bonus you really lag in to hit.
  

When compared mechanically a two hander strength based rogue does more damage when just focusing strength than when focusing dex.

Get your hands on a Falchion, put an 16 (+2 racial) in strength and 14 in con and dex and just go to town with your flanking

[mcherm]

I thought a two-handed rogue was one who hadn't been caught yet.

...

Um... it's a joke? I'm old enough that they called it "thief", not "rogue" when I started playing? Yeah, I know... even Arabic countries don't still practice that. Never mind, the joke falls flat when explained.

[Quandary]

Pretty much all my Rogues have been 2Handed/STR builds.
IMHO, only people's assumptions hold them back from seeing that as the STANDARD melee Rogue build.
Really, the only thing going for DEX/2WF builds is more Crit Triggers (ONLY WHEN FULL ATTACKING!) and Ranged Synergy.
And I guess synergy with Stealth (and Acrobatics), but Skill Focus can easily be taken in lieu of 2WF Feats, Weapon Finesse, etc.
2WF/DEX can also be made to work with Mobile/2WF Fighter Archetype multiclass builds though.
Ranger multiclass allows 2WF/STR builds, similar for Monk/Rogue builds although now with Paizo's FAQ,
Flurry isn't really related to 2WF, even though the RAW hasn't yet been updated with Errata to remove 2WF references.
UMD'ing (or multiclassing) to use Flame Blade is great for DEX/2WF builds that have reliable Sneak Attack, targetting Touch AC.
2WF looks even sadder when you consider the options to combine STR/2H + Natural Attacks.
I don't see much use in the DEX/2H builds like Elven Curve Blade, at least damage-wise,
I guess it's 'OK' if you really wanted Ranged Synergy and can take Agile and 13 STR for Power Attack to get 'OK' damage.

Of course a character with lesser stats than another will be broadly weaker, I'm not sure the point of that comparison?
STR/2H builds are just as much optimizable as DEX/2WF builds...?

[Thomas Long 175]

Quandary wrote:

Pretty much all my Rogues have been 2Handed/STR builds.

IMHO, only people's assumptions hold them back from seeing that as the STANDARD melee Rogue build.
Really, the only thing going for DEX/2WF builds is more Crit Triggers (ONLY WHEN FULL ATTACKING!) and Ranged Synergy.
And I guess synergy with Stealth (and Acrobatics), but Skill Focus can easily be taken in lieu of 2WF Feats, Weapon Finesse, etc.
2WF/DEX can also be made to work with Mobile/2WF Fighter Archetype multiclass builds though.
(and Ranger multiclass allows 2WF/STR builds, similar for Monk/Rogue builds although now with Paizo's FAQ Flurry isn't really related to 2WF, although the RAW hasn't yet been updated with Errata)
UMD'ing (or multiclassing) to use Flame Blade is great for DEX/2WF builds that have reliable Sneak Attack, targetting Touch AC.
2WF looks even sadder when you consider the options to combine 2H + Natural Attacks.
I don't see much use in the DEX/2H builds like Elven Curve Blade, at least damage-wise,
I guess it's 'OK' if you really wanted Ranged Synergy and can take Agile and 13 STR for Power Attack.

Of course a character with lesser stats than another will be broadly weaker, I'm not sure the point of that comparison?
STR/2H builds are just as much optimizable as DEX/2WF builds...?

Crit does almost nothing for a dex rogue since most of their damage is from sneak attack which is unaffected by crit.

[Quandary]

By Crit Triggers I meant things like Stunning Crit, other Crit-Triggered effects, not Crit-multiplied Damage.

[3.5 Loyalist]

Luei wrote:

So, in DND Online, I use a rogue with a greataxe, and generally moderate stats, and I gotta say, it really kind of owns. What I'm wondering (and doubting), though, is how viable it would be in a PF game. I mean, with feats like Vital Strike, you could kill almost anything with a stealthy sneak attack, and in combat you'd do pretty good damage, even if it isn't sneak attack. Though I'm gonna go ahead and guess it'd be outclassed by a TWF rogue with optimized stats and many other builds.

I had a combat rogue (as opposed to skill focus rogue/thief) that went bastard sword two handed. Very much a tricky feinting fighter type, but with sneak attack. He owned and was pretty good. Funny backstory in that he was from the city in the river kingdoms where the tyrant killed people with eels. This pushed him to be as dodgy as he could fighting wise, and to get out of there and see adventure as quick as possible, before he was eel bait.

[master_marshmallow]

Alejandro Acosta wrote:

If you want a 2 hander rogue try this:

Your stat array should look like this ++DEX>+CON>STR>INT>WIS>-CHA
r1 sneak attack 1d6, imp initiative, weapon finesse
r3 sneak attack 2d6, exotic weapon, Elven Curve Blade (ECB). A finesseable 2 hand weapon (deals 1d10 damage).
r5 sneak attack 4d6, desperate battler (gives you +1/+1 if you have no allies within 10 feet). Good for use on the surprise round. Alternately you can substitute a feat that gives you an extra 1d6 of sneak attack @ BAB +3 (sorry, I don't remember the name of the feat).
r7 sneak attack, 5d6, power attack (crank up that 2 handed weapon damage).
r9 sneak attack, 6d6, vital strike
r10 advanced talent (opportunist)
r11 sneak attack, 7d6, improved critical ECB
Make your ECB agile so you can add DEX to damage. Then add weapon pluses when you can. Also start working on step up & strike and maybe critical focus.

This guy right here, he knows things.

[3.5 Loyalist]

Falchion is an oldie and a goodie.

Seen a glaive rogue. I ran a ninja with a two handed reach weapon. Hattori Hanzo apparently favoured the spear (not the sword, thanks Kill Bill).

[Nefreet]

Claw/Claw/Bite + Sneak Attack = Win. Just sayin'.

Next level I'm up to 5d6 Sneak and can afford Corrosive for my Amulet of Mighty Fists.

=D