As an aside, it occurs to me that the monster non-associated (or key) class advancement would be an interesting approach to, say, multiclassing.
That is, by the logic involved, a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 would be a 15th level character, and you'd hit level 20 at Ftr14/Wiz12 (or Wiz14/Ftr12 for that matter).
Food for thought.
This came up in the Bear wizard thread, but deserves it's own thread.
On first thought, I approve, but I think I want to make some builds first to see. Anyone want to help?
Thanks for splitting this into its own thread; I'd forgotten about it, and I do find it intriguing. I won't likely get to it tonight, but I'll try to whip up some sample characters soon for comparison's sake.
So, let's say I'm a 6th level monk with a good wisdom, looking at level 7 in monk gives me:
+1 BAB and +1 Flurry of Blows (note that the Cleric levels do nothing for flurry of blows)
Wholeness of Body
4+INT Skill Points
5.5+Con HP (favored class)
On the other hand, 2 levels of Cleric get me:
+1 BAB
Channel Energy 1d6
0 and 1st level cleric spells
4+INTx2 Skill Points with a bunch of different class skills
+3 to two saves
9+Conx2 HP
Seems like a huge powerup for melee classes, but not before mid-levels.
I actually think that takes them a long way towards being balanced with spellcasters. Let's Compare our Monk6/Cleric2 with a Cleric 7.
MAD and low level casting mean that the Mnk6/Clr2 isn't going to steal any of the clerics spellcasting thunder, and will be much better at melee combat. I think this works so far...
How Mnk6/Cleric6 vs the 9th level cleric? The Mnk6/Clr6 has tons more hitpoints (12HD instead of 9), and a slightly higher BAB (8 vs 6), much higher saves (10,7,10 vs 6,3,6). But he'll be 3 levels behind on spellcasting, not having access to 4th or 5th level spells.
4th level cleric spells include Dismissal (save or die for outsiders), Lesser Planar Ally (Best summon in the game at this level, have any 6HD outsider serve you for 9 days), Restoration and Summon Monster IV (the first of the really good SM spells).
5th level cleric spells include: Raise Dead, Wall of Stone, Plane Shift, Righteous Might, True Seeing and Greater Command.
Also note that the Cleric is 2 levels away from 6th level spells, while the Monk/Cleric is 5 levels away from them.
I actually think this is more balanced than comparing a lvl 9 monk to a lvl 9 cleric.
Huh. I hadn't considered that Rogues aren't in the 'combat' role. Nice!
Also keep in mind that while this doesn't powerup Sor/Wiz, Clerics, or Druids, it DOES give them an ability to pick up other classes without slitting their throat.
A Wizard 6 who wants to be something like an eldritch knight can sacrifice a mere single level of spellcasting and get 2 combat feats plus all the proficiencies of a fighter. And a second sacrifice, and the wizard can pick up Weapon Specialization (along with armor training and another bonus feat).
One spell level sacrificed, and you have a tough, rugged wizard.
One spell level sacrificed, and you have a tough, rugged wizard.
I'm ok with that. That wizard is probably still better off staying out of melee, and the 5th level of spells is better than that.
5th level core S/W spells:
Abjuration
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, transmutations, and curses.
Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to its native plane.
Mage's Private Sanctum: Prevents anyone from viewing or scrying an area for 24 hours.
Conjuration
Cloudkill: Kills 3 HD or less; 4–6 HD save or die, 6+ HD take Con damage.
Mage's Faithful Hound: Phantom dog can guard a location and attack intruders.
Major Creation: As minor creation, plus stone and metal.
Planar Binding, Lesser: Traps extraplanar creature of 6 HD or less until it performs a task.
Secret ChestF: Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
Summon Monster V: Summons extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Teleport: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles per level.
Wall of Stone: Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.
Divination
Contact Other Plane: Lets you ask question of extraplanar entity.
Prying Eyes: 1d4 + 1/level floating eyes scout for you.
Telepathic Bond: Link lets allies communicate.
Enchantment
Dominate Person: Controls humanoid telepathically.
Feeblemind: Subject's Int and Cha drop to 1.
Hold Monster: As hold person, but any creature.
Mind Fog: Subjects in fog get –10 to Wis and Will checks.
Symbol of Sleep: Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into catatonic slumber.
Evocation
Cone of Cold: 1d6/level cold damage.
Interposing Hand: Hand provides cover against 1 opponent.
Sending: Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Wall of Force: Wall is immune to damage.
Illusion
Dream: Sends message to anyone sleeping.
False Vision: Fools scrying with an illusion.
Mirage Arcana: As hallucinatory terrain, plus structures.
Nightmare: Sends vision dealing 1d10 damage, fatigue.
Persistent Image: As major image, but with no concentration required.
Seeming: Changes appearance of 1 person per 2 levels.
Shadow Evocation: Mimics evocation below 5th level, but only 20% real.
Necromancy
Blight: Withers one plant or deals 1d6/level damage to plant creature.
Magic Jar: Enables possession of another creature.
Symbol of Pain: Triggered rune wracks creatures with pain.
Waves of Fatigue: Several targets become fatigued.
Transmutation
Animal Growth: One animal doubles in size.
Baleful Polymorph: Turns subject into harmless animal.
Beast Shape III: You take the form of a Diminutive or Huge animal, or Small or Medium magical beast.
Elemental Body II: Turns you into a Medium elemental.
Fabricate: Transforms raw materials into finished items.
Overland Flight: You fly at a speed of 40 ft. and can hustle over long distances.
Passwall: Creates passage through wood or stone wall.
Plant Shape I: Turns you into a Small or Medium plant.
Polymorph: Gives one willing subject a new form.
Telekinesis: Moves object, attacks creature, or hurls object or creature.
Transmute Mud to Rock: Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Transmute Rock to Mud: Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Universal
Permanency: Makes certain spells permanent.
Male Elf; Medium Humanoid ( Elf )
Rogue6 Fighter6
Hit Dice: (6d8)+(6d10)+18
Hit Points: 82
Initiative: +6
Speed: Walk 30 ft.
AC: 26 (touch 16, flatfooted 26)
Attacks: *Sword +1 (Short/Flaming) +19/+14; *Sword +1 (Short/Frost) +19/+14;
Damage: *Sword +1 (Short/Flaming) 2d6+5; *Sword +1 (Short/Frost) 2d6+4;
Vision: Low-light
Face / Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Sneak Attack+3d6
Special Qualities: Armor Training, Bravery, Elven Immunities, Elven Magic, Evasion, Immunity To Magical Sleep, Keen Senses, Trapfinding, Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge, Weapon Familiarity, Weapon Training
Saves: Fortitude: +7, Reflex: +13, Will: +4
Abilities: STR 12 (+1), DEX 22 (+6), CON 10 (+0), INT 14 (+2), WIS 10 (+0), CHA 12 (+1)
Skills: Acrobatics: 21; Acrobatics (Jump): 20; Appraise: 2; Bluff: 16; Climb: 8; Craft (Untrained): 2; Diplomacy: 9; Disable Device: 15; Disguise: 1; Escape Artist: 6; Fly: 6; Handle Animal: 5; Heal: 0; Intimidate: 9; Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 6; Knowledge (Engineering): 6; Perception: 6; Perception (Trapfinding): 9; Perform (Untrained): 1; Profession (Architect): 4; Ride: 10; Sense Motive: 10; Stealth: 21; Stealth (In caverns): 20; Stealth (In forests): 20; Stealth (In lair): 20; Stealth (In rocky areas): 20; Stealth (In snow): 20; Stealth (In stony or icy areas): 20; Stealth (In swamps): 20; Stealth (In tall grass): 20; Stealth (In undergrowth): 20; Stealth (In vegetation): 20; Stealth (In water): 20; Survival: 8; Swim: 8; Use Magic Device: 10;
Feats: Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency, Heavy, Armor Proficiency, Light, Armor Proficiency, Medium, Improved Critical (Sword (Short)), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Quick Draw, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Toughness, Tower Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Sword (Short)), Weapon Specialization (Sword (Short))
Challenge Rating: 9
Alignment: Neutral
Possessions: Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4; Breastplate +3 (Mithral);...
Compare Malik here to CR 9 monsters, and I'll think you'll find he is a pretty good fit. Compare a level 9 fighter to these same monsters, and you will not like it.
For example, you can combine Fighter and Monk, (speaking of which, how the hell does Fighter fall into the skill category but monk not fall into the skill category?) and it works great, Monk gets much needed BAB and feats, Fighter gets improved defences and mobility, everybody's happy.
Combine Fighter and Paladin (which is also listed as not having a category) and you run into problems. Mixing those two feels alot more powerful than any of the other options.
Of course, moving the Paladin into the Combat role seems to fix that problem nicely. (It's ok to leave Monk with no role, that way people who want to go monk/rogue can and benefit fully from it)
Oh, speaking of which... how does your fighter/rogue example work? The D20PFSRD says fighter's are skill category (I don't agree with it, and don't know anyone who does. Maybe that was an error in the page...)
Oh, speaking of which... how does your fighter/rogue example work? The D20PFSRD says fighter's are skill category (I don't agree with it, and don't know anyone who does. Maybe that was an error in the page...)
Oh crap, you're right, I didn't notice that Barbarian, Fighter and Ranger count as skill AND combat.
Of course, moving the Paladin into the Combat role seems to fix that problem nicely. (It's ok to leave Monk with no role, that way people who want to go monk/rogue can and benefit fully from it)
Another note on Monks: Flurry is based on Monk level, not BAB, so Monks don't benefit as much as Fighters, as most Feats are based on BAB. The first two levels of monk are attractive as a dip (improved unarmed strike, stunning fist, evasion, +3 to all saves), but Ftr/Rog is still a better base, even for a unarmed fighter.
Of course, moving the Paladin into the Combat role seems to fix that problem nicely. (It's ok to leave Monk with no role, that way people who want to go monk/rogue can and benefit fully from it)
Another note on Monks: Flurry is based on Monk level, not BAB, so Monks don't benefit as much as Fighters, as most Feats are based on BAB. The first two levels of monk are attractive as a dip (improved unarmed strike, stunning fist, evasion, +3 to all saves), but Ftr/Rog is still a better base, even for a unarmed fighter.
Why not compare them? A Monk 6 Fighter 6, and a Rogue 6 Fighter 6, and see which looks better.
Anyways, here's a revised chart for our purposes. (I skipped the spellcaster role)
Combat: Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin
Skill: Rogue, Bard
None: Monk
If you want your free to put Ranger in Skill, but from where I'm standing it's best in combat.
EDIT: Oh, you were comparing Monk/Rogue to Fighter/Rogue. Not 100% sure there, Monk does have things to contribute (Stunning Fist, additional speed and mobility, still adds 6 BAB during a full attack)
I would wager the Fighter path would give more DPR, but monk adds alot of options to Rogue, the two mix pretty well in their own way.
Ryan:
I know what the rules say, I just don't think it works for this sort of thing.
Rogues are GREAT at melee. Their only real drawbacks are lack of armor, lower BAB, and lower hit points. All of which are scooped on with 'nonassociated.'
I don't think you can fairly halve the benefit of a rogue to a barbarian or fighter when 'sneak attack' is so absurdly useful.
I know what the rules say, I just don't think it works for this sort of thing.
Rogues are GREAT at melee. Their only real drawbacks are lack of armor, lower BAB, and lower hit points. All of which are scooped on with 'nonassociated.'
I don't think you can fairly halve the benefit of a rogue to a barbarian or fighter when 'sneak attack' is so absurdly useful.
William,
I totally understand where you are coming from here. I agree that Rogue's are great in Melee, and I get that a Rogue/Fighter using these rules (or a Rogue/Paladin, or a Rogue/Barbarian) is flat out better than a single classed Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin.
I think that is a good thing. I have played in games where the Wizard could summon things better than the fighter at 9th level. The reason I find this option attractive is because it is a massive power boost that manages not to help straight casters very much. I am just as ok with the Fighter boosting himself with Rogue as him boosting himself with Cleric (which actually might still be better).
Also, such a rogue should still keep light armor (note my use of Mithral Breastplate). High Dex + Evasion + Improved Uncanny Dodge is reason enough to keep it light.
Kyrt:
Monks using Flurry of blows ignore their character's normal BAB, and replace it with Monk Level, so Mnk6/Ftr6 flurries like a Monk6, not like a Monk12. Thus, this character wouldn't flurry much, and so wouldn't be anywhere near as good as a Ftr6/Rog6 with improved unarmed strike and ITWF.
From the PFSRD::
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
If you need me to find the thread it was stated in I will, but the fact is, Flurry of blows replaces the Monk's BAB from level with BAB = monk level.
A Monk 6 Fighter 6 has 10 BAB when not flurrying, and 12 when flurrying. (A Monk 6 Rogue 6 would have 8 BAB when not flurrying, and 10 when flurrying)
*goes to track down that thread, since I'm guessing I won't be believed*
I'd love to see where you got that. Both the Core rulebook and the PFSRD are telling me that Flurry uses Monk Level. I think it should be houseruled so that when the monk flurries, he uses HD instead of BAB, but as far as I can find right now, it's Monk Level, not total level or HD.
Ryan, your misreading it.
It's not replacing ALL of the monk's BAB from all sources.
It's replacing the monk class BAB.
If you're a Monk 3 Rogue 12, you have BAB 10 (2 from monk levels and 8 from rogue levels)
While flurrying you have a BAB of 11, because the monk levels are treated as full BAB levels.
Since primary spellcasting classes are never associated with each other, that makes Mystic Theurge a lot more attractive.
Wizard 3/Cleric 3 is equivalent to level 5 (presuming we round up for half levels).
At level 20 equivalent, our Mystic Theurge is a Wizard 6/Cleric 6/Theurge 10 and has one level to spare. It could be spent on one of Wizard or Cleric, or to gain two levels of a non-associated class.
Since primary spellcasting classes are never associated with each other, that makes Mystic Theurge a lot more attractive.
Wizard 3/Cleric 3 is equivalent to level 5 (presuming we round up for half levels).
You don't round up for half levels.
It does help keep MT relevant compared to their alternatives though, entering with 2/2 each would have 2nd level spells in both classes, with 3rd level casting and the class would last until 14th level, after which point you have to start multiclassing again.
at 14th level that would be CL 13 in each, and from there the progression gets weaker, but by that time the casting is strong enough it works out pretty well anyway.
The reason I find this option attractive is because it is a massive power boost that manages not to help straight casters very much.
It doesn't manage to help straight fighters very much, either. Your fix for an underpowered single-classed fighter seems to be, "Here's something you can do instead of playing a single-classed fighter."
CR wise it works ok as a DM tool, for PC's in a party not so well. besides that a rogue / fighter for instance is actually a very powerful multi-class.
Associated / non-associated is a bit of a simplification to give some general guidelines, some of the resulting monsters are definately off, either tougher or too weak, a DM should feel free to adjust the CR of his creations for the challlenge it provides.
CR wise it works ok as a DM tool, for PC's in a party not so well. besides that a rogue / fighter for instance is actually a very powerful multi-class.
Associated / non-associated is a bit of a simplification to give some general guidelines, some of the resulting monsters are definately off, either tougher or too weak, a DM should feel free to adjust the CR of his creations for the challlenge it provides.
It probably is better as a DM tool for NPCs, since then the GM can apply arbitrary "this is too strong" rulings without the player getting upset.
I could easily see the argument that Rogue should be in both combat and skill. Sneak attack can be quite effective in combat. PC's are probably going to be even more vulnerable to it than monsters are. (When was the last time you saw an ooze PC?) The main problem with rogues in melee is the low BAB, hit points and light armor. Adding several levels of one of the combat classes solves that problem. I'd probably either call the first 1-2 level of combat classes associated, or use a 3:2 ratio instead of a 1:1.
I'm not sure I understand the actual mechanics involved in this system. Are you talking whenever a character gains X amount of XP equivalent to a new level in their core class they are instead able to take 2 levels of a "non-linked" class?
For example let's assume we are using the medium advancement speed and I'm a 5th level Fighter (15,000 XP), under normal advancement I'd be expected to get to level 6 at 23,000 XP. Under this new system I could instead take 2 levels of rogue (or other class) at 23,000 XP?
It seems like that would be an awkward system that could easily abused for instance I could do the following.
Start with 2 levels of Fighter, with the third character level I then take 2 levels of Rogue, with my 4th level I could either advance Fighter or Rogue by 1 level or I could go ahead and grab 2 levels of Monk for the save boosters. Or I could get 2 levels of Wizard or Cleric and be a utility spell caster.
Instead of a level 4 Fighter I would instead have a Level 2/2/2 Fighter/Rogue/Wizard or 2/2/2 Fighter/Rogue/Cleric. This would increase my utility significantly (as well as durability via improved saves and HP) but after a certain point in time it would be a trap of sorts. Working on three classes simultaneously would probably reach a point of diminishing returns before too terribly long. For example a level 4/4/4 Fighter/Rogue/Wizard is probably inferior to a level 6/6 Fighter/Bard or level 8 Wizard.
I think the system would be a bit less easy to abuse if there was still some negative costs towards multi-classing. This system in effect gives you a 50% discount towards secondary class. I think I'd prefer a 25% discount towards a non-associated class.
For instance go back to the level 5 Fighter, I could get level 6 fighter at 23,000 XP or I could instead choose to become a level 5/1 Fighter/Rogue at 21,000 XP. With my next level I could either go back to fighter and become a 6/1 Fighter/Rogue at 33,000 XP or a 5/2 Fighter Rogue at 30,000. Under this system I wouldn't be able to double up on skills or HP or BAB but I would in effect be paying a slight discount on non-associated class levels. This would compensate for likely losing the bonus HP/Skill point for taking a non-favored class. It would also reduce the penalty that mixed-class PrCs (Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster) face because I could unlock those PrCs at a lower XP total than I can under a RAW system.
I believe this comes a bit closer to the challenge I believe, I also adjust the magic items to the new CR so they are actually downscaled in power a bit too
(my campaign tend to be a bit lower on magic than the standard)
For non-associated classes I stick to 1/2 (+1 if not already elite)
for a NPC fighter 4/ wizard 6 / rogue 4
let's see elite cr 1
fighter 4 levels cr 3 (4 x 3/4)
rogue 4 levels cr 2 (4 x 1/2)
wizard 6 levels cr 3 (6 x 1/2)
since by now the fighter rogue is a cr 6 creature, the wizard levels can be added up to level 6 as a non-associated class.
this ends up being a CR 9 chalenge to the party, equiped as a lvl 9 character this will play out fairly well I think.
It will be about the same as a lvl 11 single class with similar gear.
Prestige Classes will count as associated in most cases.
