Ok. So, for a campaign like KM, where equipment gets ordered from the store, it should be ok to order spellbooks for a cost of 15gp + scribing costs as long as they fit below the maximum order value. Wizard's should remember, though, that those spellbooks will have been scribed by another wizard, and so need to be deciphered, and will always require spellcraft checks if used to prepare spells.
Ah. Ok. Is it reasonable to allow a PC to buy a spellbook at market at this price?
I would say no unless you want to run a very time constraining game and you don't want your magi, wizards and alchemists suffer too much, but other than that i suggest just allow them to view another caster's spellbook in order to copy the spell (after paying the fee of course)
It's more like I'm planning on running Kingmaker campaign, and so it'll be awhile before there are other level-appropriate wizards around. Other characters can order what they need from the store, I'm wondering if a wizard can likewise order spells in spellbook form.
First of all not all the spellbooks in UM have their prices calulated correctly but to answer your question the formula to price a spellbook is the following:
the price of the book itself (15gp for standard spellbook, 10gp for traveling spellbook etc.) + the material cost needed to scribe every spell the spellbook has.
Ah. Ok. Is it reasonable to allow a PC to buy a spellbook at market at this price?
You calculate a spellbook's cost by adding the spellbook cost (15 gp) then any gp it cost to write the spells into the book. The magic section details this.
Quote:
Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on the following table. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.
Spell Level-----Writing Cost
0---------------5 gp
1---------------10 gp
2---------------40 gp
3---------------90 gp
4---------------160 gp
5---------------250 gp
6---------------360 gp
7---------------490 gp
8---------------640 gp
9---------------810 gp
Also note:
Quote:
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has 100 pages.
After that, double the cost to figure market value adjusting this if you're a GM and making a particularly rare or special spellbook.
That seems to get us close, but I don't think it's the exact formula they used. Check this out:
Spoiler:
Apprentice Chapbook of Rul Thaven (Level 2 Diviner)
This slim book is carefully but amateurishly bound, with leather stretched tight across thin boards. The writing inside is fussy and crammed together, with words that are occasionally illegible. Eight of its pages contain spells; the final 10 pages are blank. A portrait of a plain woman, unsmiling, has been bound into the inside front cover.
Opposition schools Illusion, transmutation
Value 155 gp
Spells
1st—comprehend languages S, detect secret doors S, detect undead S, identify S, protection from evil, protection from law, summon monster I, true strike
8 1st level spells x 10gp x 2 + 15 = 175gp, and they price it at 155gp,
Should the value of a spell book be factored into treasure?
Yes, it should. Part of the balance of the Wizard is that they'll spend gold learning spells. Including spellbooks in treasure is just frontloading that. Although, I wouldn't count spells the PC already knows as most treasure than it would sell for.
The "Legacy of Fire" adventure path is pretty much based on the idea of what happens when a genie's wish powers are abused, both by mortals AND by the genies themselves. Over the course of those six volumes of Pathfinder, we do a lot of exploring and investigation as to how wishes can impact a world, and not just economically.
The short version: Abusing wishes causes adventure paths to happen.
This is by far the best response so far, and how I really want to see GMs run games with players who do things like binding too many efreet.
When the band of outlaws jumps the low level player in the woods for not paying the "tax", they might be angry, but the GM isn't angry, he's just trying to run a fun adventure. Same thing with Efreet resentment over binding. Having the wishes twisted to be worthless at best, or having TPKs because the efreet (or gods or whatever) kill the players automatically strikes me as a GM being upset by their game being "screwed up", and thus accidentally ignoring the adventure hooks provided that could make for an interesting and compelling game, even if it does involve summoning and binding efreet.
I know what the rules say, I just don't think it works for this sort of thing.
Rogues are GREAT at melee. Their only real drawbacks are lack of armor, lower BAB, and lower hit points. All of which are scooped on with 'nonassociated.'
I don't think you can fairly halve the benefit of a rogue to a barbarian or fighter when 'sneak attack' is so absurdly useful.
William,
I totally understand where you are coming from here. I agree that Rogue's are great in Melee, and I get that a Rogue/Fighter using these rules (or a Rogue/Paladin, or a Rogue/Barbarian) is flat out better than a single classed Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin.
I think that is a good thing. I have played in games where the Wizard could summon things better than the fighter at 9th level. The reason I find this option attractive is because it is a massive power boost that manages not to help straight casters very much. I am just as ok with the Fighter boosting himself with Rogue as him boosting himself with Cleric (which actually might still be better).
Also, such a rogue should still keep light armor (note my use of Mithral Breastplate). High Dex + Evasion + Improved Uncanny Dodge is reason enough to keep it light.
Kyrt:
Monks using Flurry of blows ignore their character's normal BAB, and replace it with Monk Level, so Mnk6/Ftr6 flurries like a Monk6, not like a Monk12. Thus, this character wouldn't flurry much, and so wouldn't be anywhere near as good as a Ftr6/Rog6 with improved unarmed strike and ITWF.
From the PFSRD::
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
Of course, moving the Paladin into the Combat role seems to fix that problem nicely. (It's ok to leave Monk with no role, that way people who want to go monk/rogue can and benefit fully from it)
Another note on Monks: Flurry is based on Monk level, not BAB, so Monks don't benefit as much as Fighters, as most Feats are based on BAB. The first two levels of monk are attractive as a dip (improved unarmed strike, stunning fist, evasion, +3 to all saves), but Ftr/Rog is still a better base, even for a unarmed fighter.
Oh, speaking of which... how does your fighter/rogue example work? The D20PFSRD says fighter's are skill category (I don't agree with it, and don't know anyone who does. Maybe that was an error in the page...)
Oh crap, you're right, I didn't notice that Barbarian, Fighter and Ranger count as skill AND combat.
Male Elf; Medium Humanoid ( Elf )
Rogue6 Fighter6
Hit Dice: (6d8)+(6d10)+18
Hit Points: 82
Initiative: +6
Speed: Walk 30 ft.
AC: 26 (touch 16, flatfooted 26)
Attacks: *Sword +1 (Short/Flaming) +19/+14; *Sword +1 (Short/Frost) +19/+14;
Damage: *Sword +1 (Short/Flaming) 2d6+5; *Sword +1 (Short/Frost) 2d6+4;
Vision: Low-light
Face / Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Sneak Attack+3d6
Special Qualities: Armor Training, Bravery, Elven Immunities, Elven Magic, Evasion, Immunity To Magical Sleep, Keen Senses, Trapfinding, Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge, Weapon Familiarity, Weapon Training
Saves: Fortitude: +7, Reflex: +13, Will: +4
Abilities: STR 12 (+1), DEX 22 (+6), CON 10 (+0), INT 14 (+2), WIS 10 (+0), CHA 12 (+1)
Skills: Acrobatics: 21; Acrobatics (Jump): 20; Appraise: 2; Bluff: 16; Climb: 8; Craft (Untrained): 2; Diplomacy: 9; Disable Device: 15; Disguise: 1; Escape Artist: 6; Fly: 6; Handle Animal: 5; Heal: 0; Intimidate: 9; Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 6; Knowledge (Engineering): 6; Perception: 6; Perception (Trapfinding): 9; Perform (Untrained): 1; Profession (Architect): 4; Ride: 10; Sense Motive: 10; Stealth: 21; Stealth (In caverns): 20; Stealth (In forests): 20; Stealth (In lair): 20; Stealth (In rocky areas): 20; Stealth (In snow): 20; Stealth (In stony or icy areas): 20; Stealth (In swamps): 20; Stealth (In tall grass): 20; Stealth (In undergrowth): 20; Stealth (In vegetation): 20; Stealth (In water): 20; Survival: 8; Swim: 8; Use Magic Device: 10;
Feats: Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency, Heavy, Armor Proficiency, Light, Armor Proficiency, Medium, Improved Critical (Sword (Short)), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Quick Draw, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Toughness, Tower Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Sword (Short)), Weapon Specialization (Sword (Short))
Challenge Rating: 9
Alignment: Neutral
Possessions: Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4; Breastplate +3 (Mithral);...
Compare Malik here to CR 9 monsters, and I'll think you'll find he is a pretty good fit. Compare a level 9 fighter to these same monsters, and you will not like it.
One spell level sacrificed, and you have a tough, rugged wizard.
I'm ok with that. That wizard is probably still better off staying out of melee, and the 5th level of spells is better than that.
5th level core S/W spells:
Abjuration
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, transmutations, and curses.
Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to its native plane.
Mage's Private Sanctum: Prevents anyone from viewing or scrying an area for 24 hours.
Conjuration
Cloudkill: Kills 3 HD or less; 4–6 HD save or die, 6+ HD take Con damage.
Mage's Faithful Hound: Phantom dog can guard a location and attack intruders.
Major Creation: As minor creation, plus stone and metal.
Planar Binding, Lesser: Traps extraplanar creature of 6 HD or less until it performs a task.
Secret ChestF: Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
Summon Monster V: Summons extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Teleport: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles per level.
Wall of Stone: Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.
Divination
Contact Other Plane: Lets you ask question of extraplanar entity.
Prying Eyes: 1d4 + 1/level floating eyes scout for you.
Telepathic Bond: Link lets allies communicate.
Enchantment
Dominate Person: Controls humanoid telepathically.
Feeblemind: Subject's Int and Cha drop to 1.
Hold Monster: As hold person, but any creature.
Mind Fog: Subjects in fog get –10 to Wis and Will checks.
Symbol of Sleep: Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into catatonic slumber.
Evocation
Cone of Cold: 1d6/level cold damage.
Interposing Hand: Hand provides cover against 1 opponent.
Sending: Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Wall of Force: Wall is immune to damage.
Illusion
Dream: Sends message to anyone sleeping.
False Vision: Fools scrying with an illusion.
Mirage Arcana: As hallucinatory terrain, plus structures.
Nightmare: Sends vision dealing 1d10 damage, fatigue.
Persistent Image: As major image, but with no concentration required.
Seeming: Changes appearance of 1 person per 2 levels.
Shadow Evocation: Mimics evocation below 5th level, but only 20% real.
Necromancy
Blight: Withers one plant or deals 1d6/level damage to plant creature.
Magic Jar: Enables possession of another creature.
Symbol of Pain: Triggered rune wracks creatures with pain.
Waves of Fatigue: Several targets become fatigued.
Transmutation
Animal Growth: One animal doubles in size.
Baleful Polymorph: Turns subject into harmless animal.
Beast Shape III: You take the form of a Diminutive or Huge animal, or Small or Medium magical beast.
Elemental Body II: Turns you into a Medium elemental.
Fabricate: Transforms raw materials into finished items.
Overland Flight: You fly at a speed of 40 ft. and can hustle over long distances.
Passwall: Creates passage through wood or stone wall.
Plant Shape I: Turns you into a Small or Medium plant.
Polymorph: Gives one willing subject a new form.
Telekinesis: Moves object, attacks creature, or hurls object or creature.
Transmute Mud to Rock: Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Transmute Rock to Mud: Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Universal
Permanency: Makes certain spells permanent.
So, let's say I'm a 6th level monk with a good wisdom, looking at level 7 in monk gives me:
+1 BAB and +1 Flurry of Blows (note that the Cleric levels do nothing for flurry of blows)
Wholeness of Body
4+INT Skill Points
5.5+Con HP (favored class)
On the other hand, 2 levels of Cleric get me:
+1 BAB
Channel Energy 1d6
0 and 1st level cleric spells
4+INTx2 Skill Points with a bunch of different class skills
+3 to two saves
9+Conx2 HP
Seems like a huge powerup for melee classes, but not before mid-levels.
I actually think that takes them a long way towards being balanced with spellcasters. Let's Compare our Monk6/Cleric2 with a Cleric 7.
MAD and low level casting mean that the Mnk6/Clr2 isn't going to steal any of the clerics spellcasting thunder, and will be much better at melee combat. I think this works so far...
How Mnk6/Cleric6 vs the 9th level cleric? The Mnk6/Clr6 has tons more hitpoints (12HD instead of 9), and a slightly higher BAB (8 vs 6), much higher saves (10,7,10 vs 6,3,6). But he'll be 3 levels behind on spellcasting, not having access to 4th or 5th level spells.
4th level cleric spells include Dismissal (save or die for outsiders), Lesser Planar Ally (Best summon in the game at this level, have any 6HD outsider serve you for 9 days), Restoration and Summon Monster IV (the first of the really good SM spells).
5th level cleric spells include: Raise Dead, Wall of Stone, Plane Shift, Righteous Might, True Seeing and Greater Command.
Also note that the Cleric is 2 levels away from 6th level spells, while the Monk/Cleric is 5 levels away from them.
I actually think this is more balanced than comparing a lvl 9 monk to a lvl 9 cleric.
As an aside, it occurs to me that the monster non-associated (or key) class advancement would be an interesting approach to, say, multiclassing.
That is, by the logic involved, a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 would be a 15th level character, and you'd hit level 20 at Ftr14/Wiz12 (or Wiz14/Ftr12 for that matter).
Food for thought.
This came up in the Bear wizard thread, but deserves it's own thread.
On first thought, I approve, but I think I want to make some builds first to see. Anyone want to help?
The Wish Economy (I didn't make this up, google it) was an interesting phenomenon in 3.5. Basically, by the book, you could chain bind efreet at 11 level (earlier with a scroll), and have them wish you up tons and tons of cash, but they couldn't wish up magic items over 15k gp.
Why does this sound like the most suicidal idea ever? Piss off efreeti by doing this, he suddenly starts granting wishes to your enemies...and he _will_ find your enemies. Heck, he might even create new ones for you.
Really, this 'wish economy' idea is like wishing your GM would make your life miserable. Or at least a lot more interesting.
Actually, yes, this is a good way to remind your GM to make the game more interesting.
One game I watched recently had 12th level PC's running errands for Sandpoint. Many of the PC's were Wizards and Sorcerors from Cheliax.
What sounds like more fun, 12th level PC's exploring a sinkhole in Sandpoint, or 12th level PC's on the front lines of an inter-planar war between the Efreet and Cheliax, with Infernal support.
I see it as having two effects, from a GM's perspective:
1. A GM shouldn't really have to worry at all about magic items worth less than 16k starting around level 12.
2. Around the same time, what players get for completing quests should be shifting to things that actually matter to powerful people, like favors, status and major magic items.
Basically, between 9th and 12th level, players start becoming capable of setting-altering magic. Teleport, planar binding, etc marks the PC's out as probably more powerful than most of the power structure of mortal affairs. This is the level when PC's can choose to join the Planar "Big Leagues", and so the game should adapt and start feeling a little more epic.
It was in 3.0. It wasn't PF, but instead 3.5 that broke the wish economy by removing the cash cap and replacing it with GM fiat.
Actually, looking at the 3.5 SRD, wish creates 25k gp in cash per casting, or an unlimited in cost magic item, as the balancing factor is XP and Efreet ignore that.
Which is probably why the games I'm thinking of houseruled it to 25k gp, just like the gold entry.
The Wish Economy (I didn't make this up, google it) was an interesting phenomenon in 3.5. Basically, by the book, you could chain bind efreet at 11 level (earlier with a scroll), and have them wish you up tons and tons of cash, but they couldn't wish up magic items over 15k gp. This resulted in many GMs seeing their game setting as one in which there are two seperate economies working, the normal and elite.
In the normal economy, everything functioned as per DMG, except there were never any major magic items to buy. Major magic items belonged in the Elite economy, where they basically were only available as rewards for quests, for equivalent trades, or for some sort of unobtainium, like souls, ransom for powerful NPCs, etc.
At first glance, the Wish Economy was removed from Pathfinder RPG. While chain binding Efreet is still RAW-legal, the wish spell has been changed, you can no longer reliably wish for money or magic items. (you can still totally get +5 inherent bonus to every stat, raise an efreet army, etc, but these aren't the topic here, and are mostly ok as the Efreet take it personally and can plane shift to here to take revenge after the spell wears off. Also, the +5 to all abilities helps fighting classes disproportionately, and that is good at 9-12th level, where it happens.)
However, it seems like the default setting has been designed with the Wish Economy pretty much assumed. According to the section on Buying Magic Items (page 460-461), items that cost more than 16,000gp are just not really available (except for a tiny number of randomly generated items per city). Given that it takes a powerful spellcaster over 2 weeks to make one, and the only others who will have them are high level NPCs or monsters with treasure, it's basically the same effect. Magic items up to 16k gold are purchasable with $$, Magic items worth more than that are only gotten as loot, rewards, or crafted by PCs.
My suggestion for GMs is to make the random major magic items available in each city barter only; you can only get them by trading other major magic items. This increases the appeal and makes every appropriate major magic item something worth going on a quest for.
If you really wanted to be brutal, make her 9th level and cast cloudkill on anyone stuck in the web. Or just have her sell her +1 Mace and have a Scroll of Cloudkill.
Also, Mage Armor doesn't stack with regular armor, you should probably drop the regular armor entirely, never fail and casting, and just use Mage Armor cast ahead of time and Shield cast just before battle, for AC 20.
TAD, Scribe Scroll comes automatically as part of being a wizard.
The first couple of rounds depends a lot on the PCs actions. However, if they all get tied up with her minions she will cast Mage Armor and False Life as her first two actions. After that she hit the heaviest hitter with Ray of Enfeeblement and then cast Displacement and Windwall.
After that, she will use Animate Dead to bump up her minions again and then start using her offensive spells. Fireball is the most effective against groups so if the PCs bunch up she will hit them with that. Otherwise Black Tentacles. Beyond that I will have to improv it.
Her Mage Armor will last for 8 hours. It's ok to assume she cast it 3 hours ago and is still buffed. Also, I'd replace one of your Animate Dead spells with Summon Monster IV. A giant Scorpion is just what the doctor ordered to deal with a PC spellcaster.
For 3rd level spells: drop 1 of the rays of exhaustion and replace it with Fly. Cast that first. Consider replacing Fireball with Stinking Cloud, that gets cast on the black tentacles next round after they come out. Wind Wall isn't as good as it looks, you might be happier casting haste on your highest-CR undead minion instead.
Replacing Scorching ray with Web goes even better with Stinking Cloud.
Remember the most effective wizards control the battlefield and debuff enemies.
Soon I will start running Burnt Offerings using Mutants and Masterminds. I've converted the NPC's, with special focus towards the preferred tactics listed in the adventure. For example, the Goblin Warchanter in the beginning uses his stun spell on PC's while his Goblin Warriors attack, so I have him using Rank 1 Stun as his primary tactic. I have run a few sample combats, and it feels very much like a more fluid and dynamic game of 1st level Dungeons and Dragons. I have built pre-stated characters for the players to use as a reference, and they look great, embracing pathfinder flavor further than D&D can.
We have a Varisian Sorceror, whose magic literally comes from her magic tattoos. Every new spell she learns is a new tattoo.
We have a Fighter, who reminds us of D&D, but also showcases the differences. He has Armor, a sword and a shield, and makes effective use of Power Attack. I can't wait to see what he does with some of the feats available as he experiences.
We have a Barbarian, who shows the flexibility of the M&M system, in how differentiated he is from the fighter. He is completely unarmed, and unarmored, but a major threat to those around him with his CON of 22, his STR of 22 while raging, and his mastery of grappling, allowing him to utilize the brutal strategy of tackling an opponent and holding him pinned to the ground while punching him into unconsciousness.
I am building 2 more. One is a cleric/paladin architype, who worships Saranrae and uses her healing flame to keep her allies together and her sword to punish her enemies. The other is a rogue-type, who uses Charisma and stealth to avoid unnecessary combat, and surprise attacks to deal with those who won't be talked down.
All of these character will experience using a point-based system instead of a level-based one, allowing them to emphasize different aspects of their characters as they grow, or to travel down dramatically different paths than they started with.
