It's more like I'm planning on running Kingmaker campaign, and so it'll be awhile before there are other level-appropriate wizards around. Other characters can order what they need from the store, I'm wondering if a wizard can likewise order spells in spellbook form.
Ah. Ok. Is it reasonable to allow a PC to buy a spellbook at market at this price?
That seems to get us close, but I don't think it's the exact formula they used. Check this out:
Apprentice Chapbook of Rul Thaven (Level 2 Diviner)
This slim book is carefully but amateurishly bound, with leather stretched tight across thin boards. The writing inside is fussy and crammed together, with words that are occasionally illegible. Eight of its pages contain spells; the final 10 pages are blank. A portrait of a plain woman, unsmiling, has been bound into the inside front cover.
Opposition schools Illusion, transmutation
Value 155 gp
1st—comprehend languages S, detect secret doors S, detect undead S, identify S, protection from evil, protection from law, summon monster I, true strike
8 1st level spells x 10gp x 2 + 15 = 175gp, and they price it at 155gp,
Should the value of a spell book be factored into treasure?
Yes, it should. Part of the balance of the Wizard is that they'll spend gold learning spells. Including spellbooks in treasure is just frontloading that. Although, I wouldn't count spells the PC already knows as most treasure than it would sell for.
James Jacobs wrote:
This is by far the best response so far, and how I really want to see GMs run games with players who do things like binding too many efreet.
When the band of outlaws jumps the low level player in the woods for not paying the "tax", they might be angry, but the GM isn't angry, he's just trying to run a fun adventure. Same thing with Efreet resentment over binding. Having the wishes twisted to be worthless at best, or having TPKs because the efreet (or gods or whatever) kill the players automatically strikes me as a GM being upset by their game being "screwed up", and thus accidentally ignoring the adventure hooks provided that could make for an interesting and compelling game, even if it does involve summoning and binding efreet.
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Even if you don't assume half levels, Wiz5/Clr5 is a playable level 8 character, while Wiz4/Clr4 isn't really.
I agree, and I enjoyed playing a Wizard/Cleric when I played Gestalt.
I see the problem. It reads:
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.
I believe this means:
For the purpose of these attacks, the character's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.
You believe this means:
For the purpose of these attacks, the part of the character's base attack bonus coming from levels in monk is equal to his monk level.
I believe my view is right, but I am open to seeing a developer or errata say otherwise.
William Timmins wrote:
I totally understand where you are coming from here. I agree that Rogue's are great in Melee, and I get that a Rogue/Fighter using these rules (or a Rogue/Paladin, or a Rogue/Barbarian) is flat out better than a single classed Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin.
I think that is a good thing. I have played in games where the Wizard could summon things better than the fighter at 9th level. The reason I find this option attractive is because it is a massive power boost that manages not to help straight casters very much. I am just as ok with the Fighter boosting himself with Rogue as him boosting himself with Cleric (which actually might still be better).
Also, such a rogue should still keep light armor (note my use of Mithral Breastplate). High Dex + Evasion + Improved Uncanny Dodge is reason enough to keep it light.
Monks using Flurry of blows ignore their character's normal BAB, and replace it with Monk Level, so Mnk6/Ftr6 flurries like a Monk6, not like a Monk12. Thus, this character wouldn't flurry much, and so wouldn't be anywhere near as good as a Ftr6/Rog6 with improved unarmed strike and ITWF.
From the PFSRD::
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
Another note on Monks: Flurry is based on Monk level, not BAB, so Monks don't benefit as much as Fighters, as most Feats are based on BAB. The first two levels of monk are attractive as a dip (improved unarmed strike, stunning fist, evasion, +3 to all saves), but Ftr/Rog is still a better base, even for a unarmed fighter.
i'm a bit lost here can someone explain to me the basics of what you guys are doing here?
Read this, and imagine using it to replace the existing rules on multi-classing.
Basically, under this system a character that was half combat, half something else would actually be competitive with a same-CR full caster.
Oh crap, you're right, I didn't notice that Barbarian, Fighter and Ranger count as skill AND combat.
I honestly see that as a typo.
I agree with you about Paladin.
Compare Malik here to CR 9 monsters, and I'll think you'll find he is a pretty good fit. Compare a level 9 fighter to these same monsters, and you will not like it.
William Timmins wrote:
I agree that Ftr8/Rog8 is better than Ftr12, but is it better than Wiz12, Clr12 or Drd12?
I think it is about right.
William Timmins wrote:
I'm ok with that. That wizard is probably still better off staying out of melee, and the 5th level of spells is better than that.
5th level core S/W spells:
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, transmutations, and curses.
Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to its native plane.
Mage's Private Sanctum: Prevents anyone from viewing or scrying an area for 24 hours.
Blight: Withers one plant or deals 1d6/level damage to plant creature.
Basically, this is a massive powerup for everyone over 4th level or so except Sorcerers, Wizards, Clerics and Druids.
That sounds like exactly what the game needs. CR9 Combat monsters all have 10-14HD, so should Level 9 Combat/X PCs.
I'd love to see how well a Fighter6/Rogue6 does against this list:
air elemental (greater), blue dragon (young), bone devil, bronze dragon (young), dire crocodile, dire shark, dragon turtle, earth elemental (greater), fire elemental (greater), frost giant, giant squid, marid, mastodon, nessian warhound, night hag, roc, spirit naga, titan centipede[V], tyrannosaurus, vampire, vrock, water elemental (greater)
Remember, you should be able to solo something of your CR 50% of the time. A Fighter9 absolutely cannot, a Cleric9 and a Wizard9 very much can.
So, let's say I'm a 6th level monk with a good wisdom, looking at level 7 in monk gives me:
+1 BAB and +1 Flurry of Blows (note that the Cleric levels do nothing for flurry of blows)
On the other hand, 2 levels of Cleric get me:
Seems like a huge powerup for melee classes, but not before mid-levels.
I actually think that takes them a long way towards being balanced with spellcasters. Let's Compare our Monk6/Cleric2 with a Cleric 7.
MAD and low level casting mean that the Mnk6/Clr2 isn't going to steal any of the clerics spellcasting thunder, and will be much better at melee combat. I think this works so far...
How Mnk6/Cleric6 vs the 9th level cleric? The Mnk6/Clr6 has tons more hitpoints (12HD instead of 9), and a slightly higher BAB (8 vs 6), much higher saves (10,7,10 vs 6,3,6). But he'll be 3 levels behind on spellcasting, not having access to 4th or 5th level spells.
4th level cleric spells include Dismissal (save or die for outsiders), Lesser Planar Ally (Best summon in the game at this level, have any 6HD outsider serve you for 9 days), Restoration and Summon Monster IV (the first of the really good SM spells).
5th level cleric spells include: Raise Dead, Wall of Stone, Plane Shift, Righteous Might, True Seeing and Greater Command.
Also note that the Cleric is 2 levels away from 6th level spells, while the Monk/Cleric is 5 levels away from them.
I actually think this is more balanced than comparing a lvl 9 monk to a lvl 9 cleric.
I am seriously considering this as a house rule.
William Timmins wrote:
This came up in the Bear wizard thread, but deserves it's own thread.
On first thought, I approve, but I think I want to make some builds first to see. Anyone want to help?
Actually, yes, this is a good way to remind your GM to make the game more interesting.
One game I watched recently had 12th level PC's running errands for Sandpoint. Many of the PC's were Wizards and Sorcerors from Cheliax.
What sounds like more fun, 12th level PC's exploring a sinkhole in Sandpoint, or 12th level PC's on the front lines of an inter-planar war between the Efreet and Cheliax, with Infernal support.
I see it as having two effects, from a GM's perspective:
1. A GM shouldn't really have to worry at all about magic items worth less than 16k starting around level 12.
2. Around the same time, what players get for completing quests should be shifting to things that actually matter to powerful people, like favors, status and major magic items.
Basically, between 9th and 12th level, players start becoming capable of setting-altering magic. Teleport, planar binding, etc marks the PC's out as probably more powerful than most of the power structure of mortal affairs. This is the level when PC's can choose to join the Planar "Big Leagues", and so the game should adapt and start feeling a little more epic.
A Man In Black wrote:
It was in 3.0. It wasn't PF, but instead 3.5 that broke the wish economy by removing the cash cap and replacing it with GM fiat.
Actually, looking at the 3.5 SRD, wish creates 25k gp in cash per casting, or an unlimited in cost magic item, as the balancing factor is XP and Efreet ignore that.
Which is probably why the games I'm thinking of houseruled it to 25k gp, just like the gold entry.
The Wish Economy (I didn't make this up, google it) was an interesting phenomenon in 3.5. Basically, by the book, you could chain bind efreet at 11 level (earlier with a scroll), and have them wish you up tons and tons of cash, but they couldn't wish up magic items over 15k gp. This resulted in many GMs seeing their game setting as one in which there are two seperate economies working, the normal and elite.
In the normal economy, everything functioned as per DMG, except there were never any major magic items to buy. Major magic items belonged in the Elite economy, where they basically were only available as rewards for quests, for equivalent trades, or for some sort of unobtainium, like souls, ransom for powerful NPCs, etc.
At first glance, the Wish Economy was removed from Pathfinder RPG. While chain binding Efreet is still RAW-legal, the wish spell has been changed, you can no longer reliably wish for money or magic items. (you can still totally get +5 inherent bonus to every stat, raise an efreet army, etc, but these aren't the topic here, and are mostly ok as the Efreet take it personally and can plane shift to here to take revenge after the spell wears off. Also, the +5 to all abilities helps fighting classes disproportionately, and that is good at 9-12th level, where it happens.)
However, it seems like the default setting has been designed with the Wish Economy pretty much assumed. According to the section on Buying Magic Items (page 460-461), items that cost more than 16,000gp are just not really available (except for a tiny number of randomly generated items per city). Given that it takes a powerful spellcaster over 2 weeks to make one, and the only others who will have them are high level NPCs or monsters with treasure, it's basically the same effect. Magic items up to 16k gold are purchasable with $$, Magic items worth more than that are only gotten as loot, rewards, or crafted by PCs.
My suggestion for GMs is to make the random major magic items available in each city barter only; you can only get them by trading other major magic items. This increases the appeal and makes every appropriate major magic item something worth going on a quest for.
Which is the way it should be, anyway.
David Fryer wrote:
Her Mage Armor will last for 8 hours. It's ok to assume she cast it 3 hours ago and is still buffed. Also, I'd replace one of your Animate Dead spells with Summon Monster IV. A giant Scorpion is just what the doctor ordered to deal with a PC spellcaster.
For 3rd level spells: drop 1 of the rays of exhaustion and replace it with Fly. Cast that first. Consider replacing Fireball with Stinking Cloud, that gets cast on the black tentacles next round after they come out. Wind Wall isn't as good as it looks, you might be happier casting haste on your highest-CR undead minion instead.
Replacing Scorching ray with Web goes even better with Stinking Cloud.
Remember the most effective wizards control the battlefield and debuff enemies.
Soon I will start running Burnt Offerings using Mutants and Masterminds. I've converted the NPC's, with special focus towards the preferred tactics listed in the adventure. For example, the Goblin Warchanter in the beginning uses his stun spell on PC's while his Goblin Warriors attack, so I have him using Rank 1 Stun as his primary tactic. I have run a few sample combats, and it feels very much like a more fluid and dynamic game of 1st level Dungeons and Dragons. I have built pre-stated characters for the players to use as a reference, and they look great, embracing pathfinder flavor further than D&D can.
We have a Varisian Sorceror, whose magic literally comes from her magic tattoos. Every new spell she learns is a new tattoo.
We have a Fighter, who reminds us of D&D, but also showcases the differences. He has Armor, a sword and a shield, and makes effective use of Power Attack. I can't wait to see what he does with some of the feats available as he experiences.
We have a Barbarian, who shows the flexibility of the M&M system, in how differentiated he is from the fighter. He is completely unarmed, and unarmored, but a major threat to those around him with his CON of 22, his STR of 22 while raging, and his mastery of grappling, allowing him to utilize the brutal strategy of tackling an opponent and holding him pinned to the ground while punching him into unconsciousness.
I am building 2 more. One is a cleric/paladin architype, who worships Saranrae and uses her healing flame to keep her allies together and her sword to punish her enemies. The other is a rogue-type, who uses Charisma and stealth to avoid unnecessary combat, and surprise attacks to deal with those who won't be talked down.
All of these character will experience using a point-based system instead of a level-based one, allowing them to emphasize different aspects of their characters as they grow, or to travel down dramatically different paths than they started with.