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Looking at the alchemist, I was excited. Finally, a class based on true(non-FMA) alchemy! But then I read the class feature Bomb. The splash damage is always the minimum amount of damage that can be dealt, meaning any Bomb thrown is already doing better than a wizard's fireball.
Lets use a level 5 wizard and a level 5 alchemist(both with 18 INT) as examples.
The Wizard's fireball deals 5d6 points of fire damage(half on a successful save or none if the target has Improved Evasion) to anyone caught in the blast.
The Alchemist's Bomb deal 3d6+4 points of fire damage on a successful ranged touch attack, and automatically deals 7 points of fire damage to anyone within 5ft of the original target.
Both are subject to fire resistance and immunity to fire, but only the fireball is affected by Spell Resistance. But a (Core) wizard can't change the damage type of his fireball.
Now, the wizard's fireball has better range and a better area. But the Alchemist's Bomb has a bit more going for it. A wizard can modify his fireball with metamagic feats(which he can spend his bonus feats on), but an Alchemist need not spend any feats to enhance his Bombs, and a few Discoveries stood out as too good, despite dealing less damage.
1) Concussive bomb (requires one previous discovery) : When the
alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict
sonic damage. Concussive bombs deal 1d4 points of sonic
damage, plus 1d4 points of sonic damage for every odd-
numbered level, instead of 1d6.
How many monster have Resistance or Immunity to sounds?
2) Explosive bomb: The alchemist’s bombs now have a
splash radius of 10 feet rather than 5 feet. Creatures
that take a direct hit from an explosive bomb catch fire,
taking 1d6 points of f ire damage each round until the
f ire is extinguished. Extinguishing the f lames is a full-
round action that requires a Reflex save. Rolling on the
ground provides the target with a +2 to the save. Dousing
the target with at least 2 gallons of water automatically
extinguishes the f lames.
Extra fire damage and an increased area? Granted, Reflex saves get a bit easier at higher levels.
3) Force bomb (requires one previous discovery) : When the
alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict
force damage. Force bombs deal 1d4 points of force
damage, plus 1d4 points of force damage for every odd-
numbered level, instead of 1d6. Creatures that take a
direct hit from a force bomb are knocked prone unless
they succeed on a Reflex save.
Good old' force damage. I don't know if anything has Resistance or Immunity to force damage. The target is knocked prone if he fails a Reflex save, meaning his AC goes down by -4 against melee attack. Hey Mr. Barbarian, want to Rage and Vital Strike something?
And here is my personal favorite, #4!
4) Madness bomb (requires two previous discoveries) : The
alchemist’s bombs do more than sear flesh—they
sear the mind. A creature that takes a direct hit from a
madness bomb takes damage from the bomb plus 1d4
points of Wisdom damage. Reduce the amount of normal
damage dealt by the bomb by 2d6 (so a bomb that would
normally deal 6d6+4 points of damage deals 4d6+4 points
of damage instead). The amount of Wisdom damage dealt
by a madness bomb is reduced by 1 for each madness bomb
that hit the target in the past 24 hours, to a minimum of
1 point of Wisdom damage.
EDIT:Okay, so the madness bomb isn't as strong as I thought. It still does Wis damage on a ranged touch attack with no save, but the damamge isn't nearly as much as I originally thought.
Madness bomb says that they take 1D4 wisdom damage in addition to the normal (reduced by 2D6) damage, i'm not sure where you're getting that much wisdom damage from unless you are assuming it does the full damage as wisdom damage, which it does not.
Edit: also, that's 1d4 that doesn't scale in any way
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Madness bomb says that they take 1D4 wisdom damage in addition to the normal (reduced by 2D6) damage, i'm not sure where you're getting that much wisdom damage from unless you are assuming it does the full damage as wisdom damage, which it does not.
Edit: also, that's 1d4 that doesn't scale in any way
Oops. Still, the Wisdom damage still hurts, even if it gets to the point each madness bomb does only 1 point of Wisdom damage.
My bad.
Madness bomb says that they take 1D4 wisdom damage in addition to the normal (reduced by 2D6) damage, i'm not sure where you're getting that much wisdom damage from unless you are assuming it does the full damage as wisdom damage, which it does not.
Edit: also, that's 1d4 that doesn't scale in any way
Oops. Still, the Wisdom damage still hurts, even if it gets to the point each madness bomb does only 1 point of Wisdom damage.
My bad.
Oh, don't get me wrong, madness bomb is quite nice, it's actually one of my favorites (for the name and the ability)
It just isn't a vortex of wisdom destruction, like you originally thought. :P
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Well, first of all, the alchemist's bomb should be stronger than a wizard's fireball. This isn't a problem, it's a saving grace. The wizard is infinitely more flexible than the alchemist, and flexibility is a strength in and of itself. The alchemist is more specialized, and thereby should be better at the things in which it specializes.
I don't understand why there's always such a negative reaction to anything that seems more powerful than an individual aspect of an incredibly flexible class's repertoire. Specialized classes are and should be better than flexible classes when it comes to their specializations. This is the reason the nerfing of the summoner's summoning spell-like abilities seems so wrong to so many people. The summoner is currently worse at summoning than a wizard, and that's silly.
Second of all, isn't a fireball a cone of fire? I don't know if I'd call a targeted bomb with splash damage (and forgive me if I'm misremembering details, as I rarely play ranged damage dealers) more powerful than a cone of fire, even if the bomb does more damage on face value. The cone is way more flexible and hits way more people, on average, so whereas its immediate damage output is weaker, it's actual damage output is probably much stronger than the bomb. Hitting five people in a cone with that much damage seems stronger than hitting one with a bomb and one or two with splash, and you're just usually going to hit more people with a cone.
Second of all, isn't a fireball a cone of fire? I don't know if I'd call a targeted bomb with splash damage (and forgive me if I'm misremembering details, as I rarely play ranged damage dealers) more powerful than a cone of fire, even if the bomb does more damage on face value. The cone is way more flexible and hits way more people, on average, so whereas its immediate damage output is weaker, it's actual damage output is probably much stronger than the bomb. Hitting five people in a cone with that much damage seems stronger than hitting one with a bomb and one or two with splash, and you're just usually going to hit more people with a cone.
No, fireball is a ball of fire. Literally. It's a radius that does fire damage to everyone in the radius. Target a square in the air and you get a perfect sphere of fire.
I think you are thinking of a red dragon's breath weapon, or maybe burning hands.
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I don't understand why there's always such a negative reaction to anything that seems more powerful than an individual aspect of an incredibly flexible class's repertoire. Specialized classes are and should be better than flexible classes when it comes to their specializations. This is the reason the nerfing of the summoner's summoning spell-like abilities seems so wrong to so many people. The summoner is currently worse at summoning than a wizard, and that's silly.
I knew I snagged someone who thought this way. Had you not mentioned the Summoner, I would have. Great minds think alike and all that stuff.
But I digress. It still seems a bit strong. Especially the Madness Bomb. It's like an EMP set to hit the brain's electrical waves than machines.
And the force bomb cuts down on the need for ghost touch weapons.
Like Ben Roe Said, an alchemist's bomb should probably be better then a wizard's fireball, because the bomb represents a whole lot more of what the alchemist can do then they wizard. Now if the alchemist also had teleportation bombs, sleep bombs, stunning/blinding bombs, web bombs, glitterdust bombs, summon monster bombs, Strength penalty bombs, mental stat damage bombs, negative energy bombs, grease bombs, confusion bombs (you get where I'm going with this right?) then yes certainly the bomb should be more in line with a fireball. But he doesnt, he is WAY more restricted in what he can do then the wizard, so it isnt a valid comparison. Not to mention the range, accuracy, and radius of the bomb are significantly less then that of a fireball (which is not the 'best' thing a wizard can be doing at that level anyway).
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Second of all, isn't a fireball a cone of fire? I don't know if I'd call a targeted bomb with splash damage (and forgive me if I'm misremembering details, as I rarely play ranged damage dealers) more powerful than a cone of fire, even if the bomb does more damage on face value. The cone is way more flexible and hits way more people, on average, so whereas its immediate damage output is weaker, it's actual damage output is probably much stronger than the bomb. Hitting five people in a cone with that much damage seems stronger than hitting one with a bomb and one or two with splash, and you're just usually going to hit more people with a cone.No, fireball is a ball of fire. Literally. It's a radius that does fire damage to everyone in the radius. Target a square in the air and you get a perfect sphere of fire.
I think you are thinking of a red dragon's breath weapon, or maybe burning hands.
See what happens when you get hit by a madness bomb? :D
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My bad. I guess I was thinking of burning hands. Either way, my main point stands. The bombs should be blastier than a wizard is capable of, because they represent a huge portion of the alchemist's relevance, rather than the very small portion of the wizard's repertoire that is blasting. And yeah, fireball's not even the most awesome spell the wizard can use to blast.
Love for flame-based attacks aside, surely a Fireball isn't the penultimate Wizard spell. It's popular, useful, and all-around loved, but the wizard's spell-based damage dealing ability scales both per spell and overall with the learning of new spells.
Also, an Alchemist sinking all his discoveries into bombs is similar to an Evocation school wizard. Might it be pertinent to compare those two?
Actually an evocation wizard is still a wizard, he can still do a huge variety of things the alchemist cannot do. So a comparison is not completely pointless, but I would certainly still say the bomb should be better then the evocation wizard's spells.