Do you hear the grasshopper that is at your feet? - or Dear Paizo, please give us a monk base class!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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lordzack wrote:
I don't want to have a Monk class. Either everybody should be able to do Wuxia stuff, or no one should.

A couple years ago, I was a student and had a lot of free time on my hands. I played many role-playing games, and there was always some distinction between the characters' "classes". I then thought about "what if"... what if there was NO classes at all. I liked (and still like) D&D, though. So I thought about a D&D-like system where every class ability could be bought in exchange for a number of prerequisites and experience points (there were two XP numbers : gotten, and spent). So, everyone and their pets could be able to flurry, wear armor, wield two-handed axes, cast spells, pray deities for miracles, and do psionics... in exchange for many experience points. Like "multiclassabilitying" ;-)

So what? So anyone could do Wuxia stuff after some training.

There were jobs and careers, too, à la Warhammer RPG. But not as constraining (and certainly not as constraining as classes could be).

It never saw the light of day, though (I left school and began "real" work). Perhaps someone else thought about this and published it somewhere on the net... if so, be kind and tell me.

(sorry for the threadjack)


And I'm not sure what we'd define as Wuxia, really. Does it have to be supernatural in nature or just very extraordinary?

Shadow Lodge

Louis IX wrote:

I don't understand this thread's title. Is this about giving Perception bonuses to the monk so that he'd be able to hear that grasshopper? And what about Paizo giving us a monk base class?

I think the title is meant to grab the attention of Paizo(like Jason and/or James) employees. The OP is the cricket that wants to be heard.


Louis IX wrote:
lordzack wrote:
I don't want to have a Monk class. Either everybody should be able to do Wuxia stuff, or no one should.

A couple years ago, I was a student and had a lot of free time on my hands. I played many role-playing games, and there was always some distinction between the characters' "classes". I then thought about "what if"... what if there was NO classes at all. I liked (and still like) D&D, though. So I thought about a D&D-like system where every class ability could be bought in exchange for a number of prerequisites and experience points (there were two XP numbers : gotten, and spent). So, everyone and their pets could be able to flurry, wear armor, wield two-handed axes, cast spells, pray deities for miracles, and do psionics... in exchange for many experience points. Like "multiclassabilitying" ;-)

So what? So anyone could do Wuxia stuff after some training.

It never saw the light of day, though (I left school and began "real" work). Perhaps someone else thought about this and published it somewhere on the net... if so, be kind and tell me.

(sorry for the threadjack)

Somebody did. They had rules for just that sort of thing in second edition in the DMG in the class discription section. I never saw anybody use them.


paul halcott wrote:
Somebody did. They had rules for just that sort of thing in second edition in the DMG in the class discription section. I never saw anybody use them.

Don't you mean 2nd Ed Skills&Powers? I actually played a game with that, and it was brutal. Fun, but brutal.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Sometimes the monk is difficult to describe outside of analogy. I'm not entirely sure why, and I suspect that if I did, I wouldn't need to use analogy. I want to point to things like Jackie Chan (a personal favorite of mine,) and Jet Li, and the utter awesomeness of modern-fantasy-kung-fu epic, Big Trouble in Little China. Elementalism (possibly) aside, look at Avatar, the Last Airbender. For high level characters, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, and even Kung Fu Hustle, Shaolin Soccer, and Kung Fu Panda.

I've heard people in other threads saying that if I want the monk to equal to the fighter in battle, I'm missing the point. No. That is the point. I want the monk to be Kung Fu Fighting, Hah! (That cat was fast as lightning!) a martial artist. I'd rather he was, say, a mobile striker, rather than a tank (unless he's a summo wrestler,) but I don't think there's anything wrong with people thinking twice about wanting to be the one that deals with him.

Maybe if he could hit multiple times after moviung, but only if he flurried. Being able to use times and a half strength damage on unarmed attacks would be nice... or perhaps it would be better if Monk special manaeuvers like stunning fist were less limited in use. Rogues don't have per-day uses on sneak attacks.

... that aside, more flavorwise, I'd like better explanations for why there are so many kung-fu guys running around settings that're mostly Western Europe Fantasy. Maybe some flavour nulling so we could have brutal tavern brawlers, Greco-Roman wrestlers, etc.


Louis IX wrote:
I then thought about "what if"... what if there was NO classes at all.

See the classless rules I devised for the Beta playtest (easily adapted to final Pathfinder rules) -- or just talk to CourtFool about HERO system.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Louis IX wrote:
I then thought about "what if"... what if there was NO classes at all.
See the classless rules I devised for the Beta playtest (easily adapted to final Pathfinder rules) -- or just talk to CourtFool about HERO system.

Here's the system I used in my last campaign. Instead of no classes, I went with 5 classes...

http://www.harvestmooncampaign.com/_archive_harvestMoon4/classes.php

It had its good points and its bad points. Most glaring was the combination of Weapon Specialization and Sneak Attack or Weapon Specialization with Maneuvers. /shudder

Here's the general creation rules

The problem with an open system like this is ability synergy. It is REALLY HARD to make sure none of the abilities you allow do not stack with other, similar abilities. I'm not saying it can't be done; I'm just saying it's a pain in the ass.


lordzack wrote:
I don't want to have a Monk class. Either everybody should be able to do Wuxia stuff, or no one should.

Wuxia is just a genre term for superhuman feats/action in asian cinema.

By extension, technically speaking, all mid-high level characters in a D&D game are capable of supernatural feats, even the fighter, who can be stronger than any regular human being by quite a bit. By extension that is not much different than wuxia except that instead of the flying about there is the profusion of equipment that PCs end up carrying because of the modern world's view on technology being a good thing.

Liberty's Edge

Jedi-Lightsabers=my ideal monk. Well, maybe with lightsabers...

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Dragonborn3 wrote:
I think the title is meant to grab the attention of Paizo(like Jason and/or James) employees. The OP is the cricket that wants to be heard.

The first half is a line from Kung Fu (which was the original inspiration for the monk class), and the second half is my own tease of the whole gish thread wave a few weeks back. I could really care less if any Paizo employees read the thread; they're already committed to a monk class that doesn't work.

I always make weird thread titles so I can easily dig them out of the archives if I want to reference or read them later.


A Man In Black wrote:

I could really care less if any Paizo employees read the thread; they're already committed to a monk class that doesn't work.

Ha! That's so constructive...

My favorite idea thus far in this thread is adding "styles" a la the Sorcerer, Cleric, and Wizard. A lot of people want the monk to do different things than its rather narrow niche — whether or not you believe it even achieves that niche.

With a number of new styles, they could have one the reinforces the existing niche, but also open up options for all the different kinds of monk people are daydreaming about in this thread. The class as it stands is very specific and inflexible, often incapable of accommodating perfectly valid "monk" tropes. Opening it up as a more flexible class like the Cleric would be really cool, IMO.

Obviously, this kind of approach has downsides (all rule extension does), but in this case I think the class is so rigid that this looks like the best solution.


Mirror, Mirror wrote:
paul halcott wrote:
Somebody did. They had rules for just that sort of thing in second edition in the DMG in the class discription section. I never saw anybody use them.
Don't you mean 2nd Ed Skills&Powers? I actually played a game with that, and it was brutal. Fun, but brutal.

No. The DMG. Pg 22.

Liberty's Edge

I like the monk statistically, but I think their flavor could either be adapted or a whole new class with a non-eastern feel should be designed. I wouldn't at all be against creating a class that was essentially a dirty-fighting street brawler or a close-combat knife fighter who was master of CMB instead of CMD.

It really wouldn't hurt having a second option for a character who maneuvers so well either. A character who can move like that with the right versatility is very fun to play in combat.


What I would see as an ideal Monk class:

In-combat role: Damage dealer/Combat manuever specialist. Compared to a Fighter - less damage, better at combat maneuvers. Sundering, Tripping, grappling - they should also have a way to throw an opponent of appropriate size.

Out of combat role: Roguish

How I would think it could be achieved:

Give some extra choices for Ki. Maybe use Ki to bypass hardness when sundering or kicking down a door (or breaking a brick in half). Use Ki to add bonuses to Combat Maneuvers. Use Ki to grant bonus to saves vs. traps.

Also - Monks should be able to use Ki to do some seriously funky stuff - like running up walls - or over tree tops (crouching tiger hidden dragon style).

Naturally - all uses of Ki should contain a verbal component "HIAGH!"

Also naturally - to make this work, the Monk would need more Ki.

Also - rather than giving the Monk open hand attacks that are treated as magic/admantium, etc. I would instead give them a progressing ability to bypass DR.

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Evil Lincoln wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:

I could really care less if any Paizo employees read the thread; they're already committed to a monk class that doesn't work.

Ha! That's so constructive...

Well, they are committed to it, regardless of your opinion of it. If they start talking about redoing the core classes or doing a Pathfinder 2e, then I'll just link this thread.


A Man In Black wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:

I could really care less if any Paizo employees read the thread; they're already committed to a monk class that doesn't work.

Ha! That's so constructive...
Well, they are committed to it, regardless of your opinion of it. If they start talking about redoing the core classes or doing a Pathfinder 2e, then I'll just link this thread.

Well, it's not TOTALLY a lost cause. They could patch the monk class with a 'style feat' that has to be taken at first level with the monk bonus feat from that level, that bestows a ton of benefits and changes the class, like what he was suggesting when he made the sorcerer bloodline comment.

Somebody could play the baseline monk, or devote themselves to a style that hones in on one aspect of monk-ness.

(Note: I don't suspect they would do it, but it would work)


Drakli wrote:
Sometimes the monk is difficult to describe outside of analogy. I'm not entirely sure why, and I suspect that if I did, I wouldn't need to use analogy. I want to point to things like Jackie Chan (a personal favorite of mine,) and Jet Li, and the utter awesomeness of modern-fantasy-kung-fu epic, Big Trouble in Little China. Elementalism (possibly) aside, look at Avatar, the Last Airbender. For high level characters, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, and even Kung Fu Hustle, Shaolin Soccer, and Kung Fu Panda.

Do not forget the first movie Jackie Chan and Jet Li ever did together, The Forbidden Kingdom. There was a lot of great stuff in that movie, both armed and unarmed, that I would like to see in a Monk class.

To me, a monk is not only unarmed combat and I just could not see a Monk without at least a staff as a weapon. That said, I would also want a monk to be able to deliver some sort of energy/ki energy through his unarmed attacks that would bypass various types of DR.

Scarab Sages

all right here is my 2 cents...i train in shaolin gung fu my shifu is a monk
monks learn a lot, alot and alot of weapons, from daggers to great axes. and lot of exoitics. some monks would wear armour like leater or ashigaru.
when i asked about safe fall he said .."don't fight on a cliff". lots of jumping, flipping, jumping, conditioning, jumping, and medicine, oh yeah and jumping. ninjutsu is the same with swiming and weathersence and horse back riding.


I am a big Monk fanboi, love the class, love the oriental flavour.

My personal opinion is that they have basically NO PLACE in our Westernised campaign settings - they just stand out as being so out of flavour with the genre.

On the other hand, Oriental campaigns ala 1ED Oriental Adventures, and even some of the stuff in 2ED was rock solid and made for whole Oriental Campaigns.

The classic 'bar brawl' was quite interesting when each player was able to utilise their own martial art style and whatever moves they had learnt.

If we are allowing monks, then my Elf Ranger should have a Katana.


Shifty wrote:

I am a big Monk fanboi, love the class, love the oriental flavour.

My personal opinion is that they have basically NO PLACE in our Westernised campaign settings - they just stand out as being so out of flavour with the genre.

On the other hand, Oriental campaigns ala 1ED Oriental Adventures, and even some of the stuff in 2ED was rock solid and made for whole Oriental Campaigns.

The classic 'bar brawl' was quite interesting when each player was able to utilise their own martial art style and whatever moves they had learnt.

If we are allowing monks, then my Elf Ranger should have a Katana.

Of course your elf Ranger can have a Katana!

Two of them if he's got the Exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword feat and is willing to eat the -4 penalty (or takes the non-core 3.5 oversized two weapon fighting feat)


Shifty wrote:


If we are allowing monks, then my Elf Ranger should have a Katana.

*AhEM!eLvENcurvedBladeHermr*


Shifty wrote:

I am a big Monk fanboi, love the class, love the oriental flavour.

My personal opinion is that they have basically NO PLACE in our Westernised campaign settings - they just stand out as being so out of flavour with the genre.

On the other hand, Oriental campaigns ala 1ED Oriental Adventures, and even some of the stuff in 2ED was rock solid and made for whole Oriental Campaigns.

The classic 'bar brawl' was quite interesting when each player was able to utilise their own martial art style and whatever moves they had learnt.

If we are allowing monks, then my Elf Ranger should have a Katana.

And what do you think an Elven Curved Blade is an expy for?

That aside, I think the Monk class does need some work - if nothing else, a few "Styles" to given more flavor to the monk. "Mystic" Monks who are focused against ethereal enemies, magic, and extensively develop their ki; "Hard" martial arts monks who have formidable battle techniques but are less mystical (ie Muay Boran, Silat, Koryu type styles) and develop very little ki; and the classic balanced Monk who has some ki abilities and can fight well enough, but doesn't shine in either direction.


I have been looking at just how hard it is to optimize a monk lately, thinking I might try my hand at using a monk in the pathfinder society. They do suffer some difficulties because they have 3 major attributes that contribute to their ability to fight (Str, Dex, and Wis. 4 if you count Con for the HP). Fighters can generally get by on their strength, and to a lesser degree, their dexterity and constitution.

Monks do suffer for not being a full BAB class, especially in their feat selection. Feats that require +6 BAB are only available to them at 9th level+ (unless they are on their bonus feat list, which is not a long list). Because of this they can actually lag behind in their CMB performance compared to fighters (for example a fighter could have greater grapple at level 6, 3 levels before a monk could pick it up). I am not sure that there is a good way to fix this, as its just the way it is.

CMD-wise though, they have a leg up with their Wis bonus. In addition, as some have mentioned, a monk never has to done armor hastily, or can ever be disarmed (Which makes me think that the best 6th level bonus feat choice is improved disarm. Nothin says the BBEG is F'ed like when that monk takes his 16,000gp +2 flaming greatsword right out of his hand, and forces him to eat AoO if tries to grab it back). A monks Dex+Wis bonus to AC/CMD gets up to in the +8-10 range in later levels, assuming he's rocking magic headband, and no fighter gets his armor bonus to CMD.

In addition, with their speed, acrobatics bonuses, and later level abundant step, they are very effective at transversing the battlefield. Hell, abundant step is a (Su) ability. If a monk ever ends up in a grapple he doesn't like, POOF! He's gone. No concentration check, no nothin. Lets say he's used all his Ki. He can still jump something like 10 feet straight up and 40 feet across in mid levels, without dropping a ki point for +20 acrobatics check. He can land behind the opposing force, or even in the BBEG's lap, and proceed to grapple/trip/disarm/stun him so he can't effectively cast spells, or activate his doomsday machine or whatever.

If you want to optimize your damage as monk, what you do is pump your strength up. It helps you hit, it helps increase your base damage, and you want that because, as a monk, you can pump out a LOT of attacks. With a high strength, there is even a chance that some of you lower iteratives will hit, although, the strong point of a monk is flurrying for 3 attacks at your highest BAB (5 with medusa's wrath, arguably the best level 10 bonus feat).

If instead you want to be a CMB monster, take agile maneuvers and rock a huge Dex. Dex is then doing double duty as both offense and defense. Coupled with your wis bonus, no-one is going to be able to effectively pull off any counter moves on you, while your own CMB matches that of a full BAB. Your damage will be gimped but you will also be much harder to hit, let alone kill, and you are not there to do damage, you are there to make the enemy weaker so the fighter can do damage more efficiently. With an amulet of mighty fists and some party bonuses, Dex-grapple-monk seems capable of some ridiculous stuff at later levels/endgame, like wrastlin' balors.


Anburaid wrote:

...stuff...

If instead you want to be a CMB monster, take agile maneuvers and rock a huge Dex. Dex is then doing double duty as both offense and defense. Coupled with your wis bonus, no-one is going to be able to effectively pull off any counter moves on you, while your own CMB matches that of a full BAB. Your damage will be gimped but you will also be much harder to hit, let alone kill, and you are not there to do damage, you are there to make the enemy weaker so the fighter can do damage more efficiently. With an amulet of mighty fists and some party bonuses, Dex-grapple-monk seems capable of some ridiculous stuff at later levels/endgame, like wrastlin' balors.

hrmmm. do you have an actual build? cause i do admire your enthusiasm, but a balor has a 54 cmd. if you have something concrete, it'd help me quite a bit for the monk guide i'm working on.

also, i'm curious to know what "party bonuses" you have in mind? most of the 9th level spells don't seem very bonus oriented.


angryscrub wrote:
Anburaid wrote:

...stuff...

If instead you want to be a CMB monster, take agile maneuvers and rock a huge Dex. Dex is then doing double duty as both offense and defense. Coupled with your wis bonus, no-one is going to be able to effectively pull off any counter moves on you, while your own CMB matches that of a full BAB. Your damage will be gimped but you will also be much harder to hit, let alone kill, and you are not there to do damage, you are there to make the enemy weaker so the fighter can do damage more efficiently. With an amulet of mighty fists and some party bonuses, Dex-grapple-monk seems capable of some ridiculous stuff at later levels/endgame, like wrastlin' balors.

hrmmm. do you have an actual build? cause i do admire your enthusiasm, but a balor has a 54 cmd. if you have something concrete, it'd help me quite a bit for the monk guide i'm working on.

also, i'm curious to know what "party bonuses" you have in mind? most of the 9th level spells don't seem very bonus oriented.

If you got 9th levels spells, you probably don't need him to grapple. I has thinking more of the little bonuses. For Dex-grapple-monk, I am assuming an 18 dex and a 16 wis at 1st level, on a 20 point build. By 20th level (man, I can hear the collective groan...) assuming +6 enhancement bonus to str/dex/wis he is wielding a +33 to grapple (includes greater grapple). Give him a +5 amulet (which, as a grapple monk is all enhancement bonus) and that goes to +38. He is now at about 20% success rate. Anything else you give him, whether it be bardic music, or hunter's bond bonus inches him closer. If he can get the first grapple off, he gets a +5 bonus just from that.

But wait, there's more! what's his CMD? that's the kicker. Its his Str + Dex + Wis + Level +10 or in this case 52 vs grapples, not including any deflection bonuses from a ring. Balor-man has got a +33 CMB, he needs a natural 20 to break the grapple. What's more, when balor-man explodes, Dex-grapple-monk uses his INSANE reflex save to dodge ALL the damage.

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Anburaid wrote:

I have been looking at just how hard it is to optimize a monk lately, thinking I might try my hand at using a monk in the pathfinder society. They do suffer some difficulties because they have 3 major attributes that contribute to their ability to fight (Str, Dex, and Wis. 4 if you count Con for the HP). Fighters can generally get by on their strength, and to a lesser degree, their dexterity and constitution.

This is kind of the wrong thread.


A Man In Black wrote:
Anburaid wrote:

I have been looking at just how hard it is to optimize a monk lately, thinking I might try my hand at using a monk in the pathfinder society. They do suffer some difficulties because they have 3 major attributes that contribute to their ability to fight (Str, Dex, and Wis. 4 if you count Con for the HP). Fighters can generally get by on their strength, and to a lesser degree, their dexterity and constitution.

This is kind of the wrong thread.

oops, partially my fault too for encouraging it. to get back on track.

what i want from monks:

should be the best balancers, jumpers, and tumblers in the game. (currently rogues are better balancers, and monks suck at tumbling past meleers like everyone else. they are good at jumping though)

should be able to hit extremely hard and fast with a chosen weapon, possibly based on a particular style, but not necessarily all weapons they can use.

should be useful out of combat as a scout type or a face.


While the monk rules obviously stem from Shao-Lin style eastern monks, PC monks don't have to be based on that concept. My monk in RotRL is kind of a stocky trappist friar who slings bad guys around while sipping on a mug of beer. Plenty of room for the Friar Tucks alongside the Kwai Chang Caines.

Zo


If I were to design a monk I would probably give it full bab and a D12 hit die (martial artists are notoriously tougher than anyone else). Then go from there. I would have a lot of ki abilities, it would be unarmored, but weapons are a BIG thing in the martial arts world, specifically bladed weapons. So I would probably start with a concept of an unarmored barbarain as my start.


Loopy wrote:

I don't think the Monk, out of the box, should skirt the line between the realistic and the fantastic. The things they do in combat, either as a harasser or a front-line enemy-eluding enemy-entangling (tankish) combatant, should be believable without invoking magic in any way. However, the abilities should be fun and interesting enough for people to wonder how they do it.

If people want a gishy or super-magicy Monk (or Fighter for that matter), there should probably be a separate book or web enhancement for such things.

People who don't want superhuman, blatantly-juiced-up-on-magic characters shouldn't play DnD. Certainly not beyond level 6. Any pretense of being remotely realistic goes right out of the window once you can not only beat up ogres in melee combat, but do so with practically zero effort or risk. Period.


Personally, I would like to see the monk being better at seeing through illusions. Maybe instead of the slow fall progression give a bonus on illusion saves which eventually culminates in True Seeing.


Just to demonstrate what I expect of monks, here's my own houseruled 3.5 monk. Yes, yes, I know, it does not solve all of the problems, is excessively conservative, unpolished, in all likelyhood still lacking offensive power, and most likely not nearly as good as high-tier clases even with campaign-raping tricks discounted (never tested it beyond low-early mid levels). But at least it can approximately imitate the typical sources of inspiration of monks, at which both 3.X and PF monks utterly fail. It's also the best illustration of the general direction, in which, I feel, the monk should be taken to not totally suck.

Spoiler:

MONK

A monk is a martial artist of magical world, who specializes at fighting with his bare hands and mastering esoteric combat and survival techniques. Monk is not the hardest-hitting or toughest warrior around, but this is compensated by great versatility, mobility and an array of tricks, from inflicting various horrible conditions by hitting enemy’s weak points to concentrating his inner power into destructive energy beams.

Alignment: Any. While many monks belong to monastic orders that preach the value of discipline and obedience, quite a lot of them can be described as ill-tempered hermits, who cannot care less about society, as well as order in any sense of the word.
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Stealth (Dex), Perform (Cha), Perception (Dex), Profession (Wis) and Sense Motive (Wis).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special AC Bonus
1st +1 +2 +2 +2 AC bonus, bonus feats, ki pool, physical techniques +0
2nd +2 +3 +3 +3 Evasion +0
3rd +3 +3 +3 +3 Ideal precision +1
4th +4 +4 +4 +4 Perfected athlete +1
5th +5 +4 +4 +4 Slow fall +2
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Piercing unarmed strike (magic) +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 Spiritual techniques +3
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +6 Purity of body +3
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6 Piercing unarmed strike (adamantine) +4
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +7 +4
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7 Tongue of the sun and moon +5
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8 Piercing unarmed strike (everything) +5
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8 Divine techniques +6
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +9 +6
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9 +7
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +10 Master of the four seasons +7
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 +8
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11 +8
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +11 +9
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Immortal master +9

All of the following are Class Features of the Monk class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with all simple weapons, all bows, the claw bracers, the nunchaku, the kama, the sai, the shuriken, the short sword, the triple staff, and any weapon from additional sources, defined as a special monk weapon. Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields of any kind.

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, a monk adds her Wisdom modifier to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 3rd level. This bonus increases by 1 every two monk levels thereafter (+2 at 5nd level, +3 at 7th level, etc). Both of these bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a monk gets Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike as bonus feats. (Note: Superior Improved Strike offers the damage bonus comparable to the old class bonusm, but bigger.)

Ki Pool (Su): At 1st level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, representing the ability to mobilize her inner resources and draw upon her ever-brighter Divine Spark to accomplish amazing and eventually superhuman feats.
The number of points in a monk’s ki pool is equal to her monk level + her Wisdom modifier. Ki points are spent to perform monk’s special techniques.

Monk’s Techniques (Su): At 1st level, and every two monk levels thereafter (at 3rd level, 5th level, and so on), a monk can choose one of special monk’s techniques, that represent her particular brand of esoteric combat training. All monk’s techniques have limited duration and cost ki points to perform. Unless stated otherwise, activating a technique is a free action. All techniques with duration greater than instant can be terminated at will at any time. Initially, a monk can learn only the lowest tier of techniques, physical techniques.

At 7th level, monk’s arsenal of techniques evolves, cross the threshold between simply amazing and obviously, unquestioningly supernatural, representing her spiritual growth, and strengthening of her Divine Spark. All techniques she already knows automatically improve, and she can choose from several new spiritual techniques, that had no counterpart at physical tier.

The final and most overtly powerful tier of techniques, becomes available at 13th level. Once again, all of the monk’s known techniques automatically improve to divine level, and she becomes able to pick new divine techniques.

When the monk has mastered higher tiers of a technique, she still retains the use of lower tiers. For example, a 8th level monk can still use the physical-tier versions of those techniques, that have physical-tier versions, if they produce different effects.
The list of monk’s techniques, with tiers, available for each and effects of each tier is provided below:

Armed Monk (Physical, Spiritual, Divine)
Physical tier: By spending 1 ki point, a monk can allow any of her monk's techniques that normally affect her unarmed strikes to be channeled through a weapon she’s proficient with for 1 hour.
Spiritual tier: As physical tier, but, in addition, base damage of any weapon the monk is proficient with increases to the base damage of her unarmed strike (if normally lower) while this technique is active.
Divine tier: As spiritual tier, but all weapons the monk is proficient with also benefit from her Piercing Unarmed Strike ability while this technique is active.

Cutting Palm (Physical, Spiritual, Divine)
Physical tier: By spending 1 ki point and using a swift action, a monk can cause her unarmed strikes to be more lethal for 1 round. While this technique is active, her unarmed strikes do slashing damage and inflict Strength damage equal to half of her monk level, with a minimum of 1 point, if a target takes any hit point damage.
Spiritual tier: As physical tier, except any target that takes Strength damage from an attack, enhanced by this technique, bleeds, losing 2 additional hit points each round per wound. A single application of healing magic or the Heal skill stop all instances of bleeding, but the user must make a caster level check or a Heal check with DC of (10 + ½ monk level + Wisdom modifier) to succeed.
Divine tier: As spiritual tier, and any target that takes Strength damage from an attack, enhanced by this technique, also must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + ½ monk level + Wisdom modifier) or become staggered until all Strength damage dealt by this technique is healed.
This technique cannot be used in conjunction with Stunning Fist or Pressure Point Strike techniques. Only one of them can enhance a single unarmed strike.

Energy Fist (Spiritual, Divine)
Spiritual tier: By spending 1 ki point, a monk can turn his unarmed strike into a ranged touch energy attack, that has range of (10’ x monk level). Otherwise this attack is exactly the dame as her normal unarmed strikes. When learning this technique, a monk must choose one type of energy to use: electricity, fire or sonic. It cannot be changed later.
Divine tier: By spending 2 ki points, a monk can fire a line of energy (of the type that she chose upon learning the spiritual tier) out of her hands or mouth as a standard action. The ray has medium range (100 ft. + 10 ft./level), allows Reflex save for half (DC 10 + ½ monk level + Wisdom modifier) and inflicts 1d10+1 energy damage per monk level.

Immaculate Form (Divine)
Divine tier: By spending 1 ki point and using a move-equivalent action, a monk can release her true power, greatly increasing her ability for a short period of time. The immaculate form requires 1 ki point per round to maintain, although maintaining it does not take actions. While in the immaculate form, the monk gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Wisdom, a +2 morale bonus to all saves, and adds 2d6 energy damage of a type chosen upon learning this technique (any type can be chosen, but once the choice is made, it cannot be changed later) to the damage of her unarmed attacks. While in the immaculate form, the monk is immune to daze, death effects, energy drain/negative levels, fatigue, nausea and stun.

Iron Body (Physical, Spiritual, Divine)
Physical tier: By spending 1 ki point, a monk can give herself a +4 natural bonus to AC for 1 minute.
Spiritual tier: As physical tier, except the monk also gains DR/Adamantine equal to her monk level.
Divine tier: As spiritual tier, except the monk also becomes immune to critical hits.

Ki Awareness (Physical, Spiritual, Divine)
Physical tier: By spending 1 ki point, a monk gains ability to sense danger and harmful intent for 1 hour, retaining her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker for this period.
Spiritual tier: As physical tier, but the monk also gains blindsense 30’ radius.
Divine tier: As spiritual tier, but the monk also gains ability to see the flow and interplay of ki directly, which is functionally equivalent to true seeing.

Missile Deflection (Physical, Spiritual, Divine)
Physical tier: By spending 1 ki point and using a swift action, when she would normally be hit with an attack from a ranged weapon, a monk may deflect it so that she take no damage from it. She must be aware of the attack and not f lat-footed.
Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged touch attacks can’t be deflected.
Spiritual tier: As physical tier, except anything can be deflected, including ranged touch attacks generated by spells and special abilities.
Divine tier: As spiritual tier, except the deflected missiles are not simply knocked aside, but redirected right back at the attacker, using all of the attack's original parameters.

Pressure Point Strike (Physical, Spiritual, Divine)
Physical tier: By spending 1 ki point, a monk can force any opponent struck by her unarmed strike to make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + ½ monk level + Wisdom modifier) or become sickened for 1 minute.
Spiritual tier: As physical tier, except the target who fails the saving throw becomes staggered for 1 minute.
Divine tier: As spiritual tier, except, the target who fails the saving throw dies or becomes paralyzed for 24 hours (monk’s choice). If the monk chooses to kill her target, death can happen instantly, or at any time within 24 hours, at her discretion.
This technique cannot be used in conjunction with Cutting Palm or Stunning Fist techniques. Only one of them can enhance a single unarmed strike.

Stunning Fist (Physical, Spiritual, Divine)
Physical tier: By spending 1 ki point, a monk can force any opponent struck by her unarmed strike to make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + ½ monk level + Wisdom modifier) or become dazed for 1 round.
Spiritual tier: As physical tier, except the target who fails the saving throw becomes stunned for 1 round.
Divine tier: As spiritual tier, except, the target who fails the saving throw becomes feebleminded or paralyzed (monk’s choice) permanently.
This technique cannot be used in conjunction with Cutting Palm or Pressure Point Strike techniques. Only one of them can enhance a single unarmed strike.

Swiftness of Movement (Physical, Spiritual, Divine)
Physical tier: A monk can add up to (1/2 of her monk’s level x 10) feet, with a minimum of 10 feet, to her movement speed for a single turn by spending 1 ki point.
Spiritual tier: A monk can move up to (1/2 of her monk’s level x 10) feet by spending 1 ki point and using a swift action.
Divine tier: As spiritual tier, except the movement provided by this technique is teleportation as per dimension door.

Unbound Form (Physical, Spiritual, Divine)
Physical tier: By spending 1 ki point, a monk can give herself a +10 bonus on an Escape Artist check.
Spiritual tier: By spending 1 ki point, a monk can gain all benefits of freedom of movement spell for up to 1 minute.
Divine tier: By spending 2 ki points and using a standard action, a monk can shift to Ethereal Plane as per ethereal jaunt spell for up to 1 minute.

Weightless Step (Spiritual, Divine)
Spiritual tier: By spending 1 ki point, a monk can use an effect that effectively combines all benefits of spider climb and water walk spells for 1 hour.
Divine tier: As spiritual tier, except also grants all benefits of air walk spell.

Wholeness of Body (Spiritual, Divine)
Spiritual tier: By spending 1 ki point and using a swift action, a monk can heal a number of hit point of damage up to her monk level.
Divine tier: By spending 1 ki point and using a swift action, a monk can gain fast healing equal to her monk level for 1 minute.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a monk can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Ideal Precision (Ex): Any time a 3rd level monk inflicts lethal damage, he may elect to inflict non-lethal damage instead. Any time a monk inflicts non-lethal damage, he may elect to inflict lethal damage instead.

Perfected Athlete (Ex): At 4rd level, a monk adds his monk level to all Athletics checks he makes for purposes of climbing or jumping, as well as to Acrobatics checks made to maintain his balance on precarious surfaces. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when making jump checks.

Slow Fall (Ex): At 5th level a monk is treated as having a permanent non-magical effect identical in all other respects to feather fall. He may suppress this ability if he wishes.

Piercing Unarmed Strike (Ex): At 5th level a monk gains the ability to penetrate damage reduction of creatures with her unarmed strike, as if her body was a magic weapon. At 9th level, this ability improves, with her unarmed strikes gaining the qualities of adamantine. Starting from 12th level, her unarmed strikes ignore any damage reduction, except for DR/-.

Purity of Body (Ex): At 8th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Su): A monk of 11th level or higher can speak with any living creature.

Master of the Four Seasons (Ex): Time passes relentlessly in the world, but for a monk of 16th level, the change of seasons is as no change at all. He no longer appears to age and never accumulates any additional penalties for growing older. Any bonuses still apply.

Immortal Master: At 20th level, the Monk becomes an outsider, and immortal of legend. He gains an outsider type, and damage reduction 20/Magic. He actually stops aging and will never die from the old age. (Note, that in my campaign being an outsiders means that you reform automatically within a certain time after being killed, unless kept dead by certain spells, as opposed to becoming deader than dead.)

Note: Any prestige classes that advanced the old monk’s unarmed strike progression now advance monk’s ki pool and monk techniques, and levels in them count as monk levels for the purpose of determining monk techniques’ effects.

Shadow Lodge

Dragon Monk wrote:
Personally, I would like to see the monk being better at seeing through illusions. Maybe instead of the slow fall progression give a bonus on illusion saves which eventually culminates in True Seeing.

And then you get pushed off a cliff and realize True Seeing only helps if you're looking the right way... ;)


FatR wrote:
Just to demonstrate what I expect of monks, here's my own houseruled 3.5 monk. * Spoiler Omitted *

I've also done the d10 HD and full BAB, and simply assigned Improved/Superior Unarmed Strike (our group has shortened most feat chains) as a bonus feat. Thereafter, they get bonus feats as in Pathfinder to use for fancy combat techniques. They get half-caster ki powers (i.e., spells) progression, like a ranger but with their own list -- slow fall is simulated with feather fall, paralyzing touch as hold person, etc. And every other level they get select a "sutra," providing some sort of special resistance; starting at 11th level, they get "advanced sutras," each of which converts an earlier resistance to an immunity.

That's a class that's more customizable than the 3.0/3.5/PF monk, one on even footing with the new Paladin.

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