Okay, now have had a chance to play a Summoner in a game and I wish to share my observations and thoughts. Normally I play a Wizard, Rogue or Cleric.
Basic Summoner, 7th level and a Lovecraftian Eidolon which was my first deviation. I swoped out the Legs for Tentacles on the quadruped build.
Actual play:
The Summoner tended to do very little by himself and the Eidolon was the star. Infact all he did was buff up the Eidolon and cast Glitterdust and Grease. The spamming of SM which people have talked about didn't happen, as a player I wasn't chucking multiple SM at encounters as I don't want to burn all my resources on the first couple of encounters. Also having stat cards ready for each of his summonable critters helped speed up play.
Overall:
Having given it much thought the Summoner himself is very much a supporter of the party and the Eidolon his "Fireball". The reasonable BAB and the right feats meant he could plink away with his crossbow whilst the Eidolon did the damage. As an afterthought a level of Rogue wouldn't do any harm as at one point the Summoner and Eidolon did a bit of flanking and I was seeing a reasonable tag-team going with the party Rogue.
Personal thoughts:
It isn't a class for me. I prefer roleplaying to rollplaying and I just felt the Summoner to be a bit one dimensional. I was playing the Eidolon not the Summoner. The nearest I can explain it was in a campaign years ago my PC lost his soul (thanks to the Deck of Randomly Stupid Things) and I ended up trying to play his inteligent sword. The lack of social skills for me as a player didn't sit well and frankly as a player I felt a bit left out. I will rejig him again and give it another go as like I said its the first time I played it and perhaps I just haven't given it a chance.
Okay, now have had a chance to play a Summoner in a game and I wish to share my observations and thoughts. Normally I play a Wizard, Rogue or Cleric.
Basic Summoner, 7th level and a Lovecraftian Eidolon which was my first deviation. I swoped out the Legs for Tentacles on the quadruped build.Actual play:
The Summoner tended to do very little by himself and the Eidolon was the star. Infact all he did was buff up the Eidolon and cast Glitterdust and Grease. The spamming of SM which people have talked about didn't happen, as a player I wasn't chucking multiple SM at encounters as I don't want to burn all my resources on the first couple of encounters. Also having stat cards ready for each of his summonable critters helped speed up play.Overall:
Having given it much thought the Summoner himself is very much a supporter of the party and the Eidolon his "Fireball". The reasonable BAB and the right feats meant he could plink away with his crossbow whilst the Eidolon did the damage. As an afterthought a level of Rogue wouldn't do any harm as at one point the Summoner and Eidolon did a bit of flanking and I was seeing a reasonable tag-team going with the party Rogue.Personal thoughts:
It isn't a class for me. I prefer roleplaying to rollplaying and I just felt the Summoner to be a bit one dimensional. I was playing the Eidolon not the Summoner. The nearest I can explain it was in a campaign years ago my PC lost his soul (thanks to the Deck of Randomly Stupid Things) and I ended up trying to play his inteligent sword. The lack of social skills for me as a player didn't sit well and frankly as a player I felt a bit left out. I will rejig him again and give it another go as like I said its the first time I played it and perhaps I just haven't given it a chance.
For lack of social skills I recommend giving non-class skills a try. It seems to me people are still stuck in the 3.5 mentality, if its not a class skill dont bother. With a high charisma (which you would likely have as a summoner) the loss of the +3 class skill bonus does not leave you inept at the skill. And given how much goes into the eidolon as opposed to the summoner, I can easily see using skill focus on a skill or maybe even two if I want to be a talker. For instance a rogue with max ranks and a charism of 14 at level 7 will have a bluff of +12. A summoner will likely have an 18 or 20 charism, with the same max ranks, will have a +11 or even +12. So its not a completely lost cause especially as you go up in level. In addition, if you play with custom skill boosting items (instead of just the printed ones) I feel like the summoner has more room in his budget for a bluff, diplomacy or sense motive item, unless you plan on kitting out your eidolon, which I personally dont approve of.
In regards to playing the eidolon instead of the summoner, I kind of agree, but that was really the point of the class, to have a heavy focus on its' 'pet'. I dont know how that can be maintained with the summoner seeming like the primary focus in terms of play.
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Okay, now have had a chance to play a Summoner in a game and I wish to share my observations and thoughts. Normally I play a Wizard, Rogue or Cleric.
Basic Summoner, 7th level and a Lovecraftian Eidolon which was my first deviation. I swoped out the Legs for Tentacles on the quadruped build.Actual play:
The Summoner tended to do very little by himself and the Eidolon was the star. Infact all he did was buff up the Eidolon and cast Glitterdust and Grease. The spamming of SM which people have talked about didn't happen, as a player I wasn't chucking multiple SM at encounters as I don't want to burn all my resources on the first couple of encounters. Also having stat cards ready for each of his summonable critters helped speed up play.Overall:
Having given it much thought the Summoner himself is very much a supporter of the party and the Eidolon his "Fireball". The reasonable BAB and the right feats meant he could plink away with his crossbow whilst the Eidolon did the damage. As an afterthought a level of Rogue wouldn't do any harm as at one point the Summoner and Eidolon did a bit of flanking and I was seeing a reasonable tag-team going with the party Rogue.Personal thoughts:
It isn't a class for me. I prefer roleplaying to rollplaying and I just felt the Summoner to be a bit one dimensional. I was playing the Eidolon not the Summoner. The nearest I can explain it was in a campaign years ago my PC lost his soul (thanks to the Deck of Randomly Stupid Things) and I ended up trying to play his inteligent sword. The lack of social skills for me as a player didn't sit well and frankly as a player I felt a bit left out. I will rejig him again and give it another go as like I said its the first time I played it and perhaps I just haven't given it a chance.
Umm... I am glad you were able to play test the Summoner :) However, by swapping the legs for tentacles, you were not following the established guidelines for the class. The base forms were designed to try to minimize some of the cheese that can go on with making eidolons.
As for the Roleplay vs Rollplay complaint, Jason has said that the idea was to make you feel like you were playing the Eidolon with the Summoner as a cohort. That being said, you could give your Eidolon some social skills and have a great time role playing the Eidolon's interaction with the party/events/encounters. You can choose any 4 skills you want as class skills for your Eidolon...
Umm... I am glad you were able to play test the Summoner :) However, by swapping the legs for tentacles, you were not following the established guidelines for the class. The base forms were designed to try to...
I had given that some thought too, it seems the summoner can wear alot of hats because of the flexibility of the eidolon. He can essenstially be a primary caster if he gives his eidolon mostly spell like abilities. Obviously he can make it a front line fighting type, and he can be the skill monkey by focusing on his eidolons skills (skilled evolution and skill focus feats). He cant do them all at once, but I think he can do a pretty good job of any of those 3. I really like that about the class, because it gets away from the required fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue model.
Maybe I'm missing it, but... it seems to me the class is not about playing the Summoner or the Eidelon, but of playing both? You're actually doubling your RP opportunities. There is nothing that says your Eidelon can't RP with others (it speaks, it thinks, it's got a soul and psyche and can have it's own persona).
A good example might be Bleach (Japanese Anime). Each soulreaper has a sword that is an awakened part of their own spirit, and each one can manifest at times. The personality of the sword is often very different than the personality of the wielder, despite the fact they share the same soul.
I prefer roleplaying to rollplaying and I just felt the Summoner to be a bit one dimensional...the lack of social skills for me as a player didn't sit well and frankly as a player I felt a bit left out.
I'm also a "roleplayer" and I find his Knowledge (All) class skills to be invaluable.
I do wish that he had Perception and Diplomacy as class skills, but I believe that Knowledge Arcana, Dungeoneering, Engineering, Geography, History, Local, Nature, Nobility, Planes and Religion more than make up for any deficiencies.
His Knowledge (All) class skills essentially gives you a free +3 to 10 different skills (a total of 30 extra points!), which allows you to put a few extra ranks into other non-class skills.
That's a excellent deal to me!
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I prefer roleplaying to rollplaying and I just felt the Summoner to be a bit one dimensional...the lack of social skills for me as a player didn't sit well and frankly as a player I felt a bit left out.I'm also a "roleplayer" and I find his Knowledge (All) class skills to be invaluable.
I do wish that he had Perception and Diplomacy as class skills, but I believe that Knowledge Arcana, Dungeoneering, Engineering, Geography, History, Local, Nature, Nobility, Planes and Religion more than make up for any deficiencies.
His Knowledge (All) class skills essentially gives you a free +3 to 10 different skills (a total of 30 extra points!), which allows you to put a few extra ranks into other non-class skills.
That's a excellent deal to me!
Yeah, it is awesome. Just makes his Cha casting stat a little hard to swallow.
Yeah, it is awesome. Just makes his Cha casting stat a little hard to swallow.
Or at least his 2 skill ranks/level.
My big problem for, me anyway, is that I like my PC to shine and in the case of the Summoner it just didn't. The Eidolon shined and I just couldn't get it out of my head that I was playing an NPC.
In order to make the PC more interesting (for me to play) meant I had to pump points into INT to give the extra points. Yea I know the Eidolon is another outlet for skills but it just doesn't sit right with me. Admitedly this is down to me as a player than the class.
However the number of SM he could do didn't prove to be a problem that others have suggested, well not for me anyway. A bit of organisation goes a long way.
The class is great for a BEEG but it isn't a class I would want to play. I can see the appeal of the Eidolon but it doesn't rock my boat.
I will carry on playing it for a while and see if my attitude changes and give the good and bad.
Maybe I'm missing it, but... it seems to me the class is not about playing the Summoner or the Eidelon, but of playing both? You're actually doubling your RP opportunities. There is nothing that says your Eidelon can't RP with others (it speaks, it thinks, it's got a soul and psyche and can have it's own persona).
A good example might be Bleach (Japanese Anime). Each soulreaper has a sword that is an awakened part of their own spirit, and each one can manifest at times. The personality of the sword is often very different than the personality of the wielder, despite the fact they share the same soul.
No you aren't missing it.
It just seemed to pan out during the scenario that the Eidolon was doing all the cool stuff whilst the Summoner stood around buffing, SM to give flanking allies and plinking with his crossbow.As for RP with others that was pretty down to party members only. Tenticular mass doesn't make a great pub buddy. Most of the builds I have seen for sample Eidolons would stand out in the crowd a bit.
I don't think it has much to do with the individual builds but more of player expectation and for me it just didn't do it. If all the Paladin's cool stuff was for his warhorse or a Wizard's Familiar I would feel the same.
When I play I want the PC to shine not the warhorse, familiar, animal companion or Eidolon.
Don't get me wrong I love the concept and I am sure others will love to play them in a game and although it doesn't do it for me I will still play it for a few more sessions and give feedback.
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Maybe I'm missing it, but... it seems to me the class is not about playing the Summoner or the Eidelon, but of playing both? You're actually doubling your RP opportunities. There is nothing that says your Eidelon can't RP with others (it speaks, it thinks, it's got a soul and psyche and can have it's own persona).
A good example might be Bleach (Japanese Anime). Each soulreaper has a sword that is an awakened part of their own spirit, and each one can manifest at times. The personality of the sword is often very different than the personality of the wielder, despite the fact they share the same soul.
No you aren't missing it.
It just seemed to pan out during the scenario that the Eidolon was doing all the cool stuff whilst the Summoner stood around buffing, SM to give flanking allies and plinking with his crossbow.
As for RP with others that was pretty down to party members only. Tenticular mass doesn't make a great pub buddy. Most of the builds I have seen for sample Eidolons would stand out in the crowd a bit.
I don't think it has much to do with the individual builds but more of player expectation and for me it just didn't do it. If all the Paladin's cool stuff was for his warhorse or a Wizard's Familiar I would feel the same.
When I play I want the PC to shine not the warhorse, familiar, animal companion or Eidolon.
Don't get me wrong I love the concept and I am sure others will love to play them in a game and although it doesn't do it for me I will still play it for a few more sessions and give feedback.
I guess Jason just felt that if you were going to be spending that much time creating and conceptualizing your Eidolon, it should take center stage.
I guess Jason just felt that if you were going to be spending that much time creating and conceptualizing your Eidolon, it should take center stage.
This is a playtest and that is what I have done. I have given my feedback on what I felt about playing the class.
A lot of people have mentioned about the Eidolon being overpowered or that the SM ability was OTT but in actual play I didn't find that. Rather than post "I think" comments I am posting "I have" and there is absolutly nothing overpowered about the class.I would rather spend my time conceptualizing my PC than his summoned mate but that is me as a player and therefore this class wouldn't be my number one choice just as much as I don't like playing a Barbarian.
Why are we being so aggressive toward anyone who isn't thrilled about the direction the summoner class has gone. I feel like his tone has been very conciliatory, and you all are responding by saying, in so many words, "Well, you're stupid and don't understand the class. So you don't have an opinion."
I second his opinions. The summoner has an identity crisis, and the Eidolon does steal the show. I've asked it once, and I'll ask it again, how did such a wimpy character manage to coerce an outsider of wondrous power into doing his bidding on the material plane? I don't know, it just doesn't seem like a feasible task for a buffer.
And I just thought it was me who felt that way!
I just put it down to internet not being able to put things across very well.But it does kind of make you think why did I bother :)
I guess Jason just felt that if you were going to be spending that much time creating and conceptualizing your Eidolon, it should take center stage.
This is a playtest and that is what I have done. I have given my feedback on what I felt about playing the class.
A lot of people have mentioned about the Eidolon being overpowered or that the SM ability was OTT but in actual play I didn't find that. Rather than post "I think" comments I am posting "I have" and there is absolutly nothing overpowered about the class.
I would rather spend my time conceptualizing my PC than his summoned mate but that is me as a player and therefore this class wouldn't be my number one choice just as much as I don't like playing a Barbarian.
And you are absolutely right to be posting your feedback. If my post came across as hostile, I apologize. It wasn't intended that way (responding here to a post above, not something you explicitly said). My response was just an attempt to make sure we are all on the same page with the expectations of the class, and it seems we are. I agree, I personally would love to play this, but I'd probably do something like a knight riding his Eidelon into battle, or making an Eidelon who was very sneaky/stealthy and small or tiny to help me theiving, rather than the giant battle monster. But that's just me.
EDIT : And I'd have a ball playing both characters, I'd look at it more as having two PC's not one with a pet.
My big problem for, me anyway, is that I like my PC to shine and in the case of the Summoner it just didn't. The Eidolon shined and I just couldn't get it out of my head that I was playing an NPC.
IMO, this is a conceptual problem, even if not every game group will experience this as being a problem. It has some precedents with the druid and its animal companion, but the druid was still rather capable on his/her own, more than the summoner at any case.
It may become even more of a problem if the summoner's eilodon comes to shine more than other characters in their respective field of expertise (fight better than the fighter, be stealthier than the rogue, know more than the bard etc). While this has still to be proven, it remains my greatest fear about the class.
At any case, the game (Pathfinder RPG as the inheritor of D&D more than as a generic RPG) was built around the concept of making a character (the PC) and make it grow. Having a (relatively) feeble character with an external ability that shines for the character is moving away from this original concept. By itself, there's nothing wrong with this, and being stuck within its own paradigm isn't the way to go either; but the summoner seems to alter the essence of the game beyond my zone of comfort.
That being said, I'll give credit where it is due, and I think that the Summoner is very well constructed within the frame of the Pathfinder rules. Its image is very evocative, and the flexibility of its eilodon allows player to go wild! Only, the summoner feels like it belongs to a specific setting; one where eilodon are known and while not necessarily common, having a significant impact in the world.
'findel
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Why are we being so aggressive toward anyone who isn't thrilled about the direction the summoner class has gone. I feel like his tone has been very conciliatory, and you all are responding by saying, in so many words, "Well, you're stupid and don't...I guess Jason just felt that if you were going to be spending that much time creating and conceptualizing your Eidolon, it should take center stage.Maybe I'm missing it, but... it seems to me the class is not about playing the Summoner or the Eidelon, but of playing both? You're actually doubling your RP opportunities. There is nothing that says your Eidelon can't RP with others (it speaks, it thinks, it's got a soul and psyche and can have it's own persona).
A good example might be Bleach (Japanese Anime). Each soulreaper has a sword that is an awakened part of their own spirit, and each one can manifest at times. The personality of the sword is often very different than the personality of the wielder, despite the fact they share the same soul.
No you aren't missing it.
It just seemed to pan out during the scenario that the Eidolon was doing all the cool stuff whilst the Summoner stood around buffing, SM to give flanking allies and plinking with his crossbow.
As for RP with others that was pretty down to party members only. Tenticular mass doesn't make a great pub buddy. Most of the builds I have seen for sample Eidolons would stand out in the crowd a bit.
I don't think it has much to do with the individual builds but more of player expectation and for me it just didn't do it. If all the Paladin's cool stuff was for his warhorse or a Wizard's Familiar I would feel the same.
When I play I want the PC to shine not the warhorse, familiar, animal companion or Eidolon.
Don't get me wrong I love the concept and I am sure others will love to play them in a game and although it doesn't do it for me I will still play it for a few more sessions and give feedback.
Wow... I so didn't mean for that to be in any way "aggressive". Reading it again, I still don't get where you got the "aggressive" comment from. I am in no way trying to say he's wrong or his opinion doesn't count. I am trying to come to some sort of consensus about why the class was designed the way it was, and what sorts of things you might be able to do to re-conceptualize the role you are taking in the game. I agree that it feels like you are playing the Eidolon not the Summoner. The OP said that this wasn't fun for him. That's cool. I think most of us were trying to help the OP, and ourselves, figure out why the class was designed that way and if there was a way to think about it that made it more fun to play for the OP( at least I was trying to do that ).
So, sorry again if it felt like we were ragging on the OP, but, honestly, I didn't really see it and I don't think that is what was intended.
I second his opinions. The summoner has an identity crisis, and the Eidolon does steal the show. I've asked it once, and I'll ask it again, how did such a wimpy character manage to coerce an outsider of wondrous power into doing his bidding on the material plane? I don't know, it just doesn't seem like a feasible task for a buffer.
Why does every class have to be a template on other classes? So this one class is summons focus and if that's not your cup of tea play something else. I think classes should stretch the limits then the same ole same ole that has been rehashed and done over and over.
maybe in your family tree you have some outsider blood or maybe your family made a pact and this Eidolon is just fulfilling that.
Anyway I am fine with the concept with some tweeks. I applaud the direction the summoners goes. To me the Cavalier is just a 1/2 assed paladin and I would never play it. It don't mean a bunch of others don't like the concept.
Maybe I'm missing it, but... it seems to me the class is not about playing the Summoner or the Eidelon, but of playing both? You're actually doubling your RP opportunities. There is nothing that says your Eidelon can't RP with others (it speaks, it thinks, it's got a soul and psyche and can have it's own persona).
A good example might be Bleach (Japanese Anime). Each soulreaper has a sword that is an awakened part of their own spirit, and each one can manifest at times. The personality of the sword is often very different than the personality of the wielder, despite the fact they share the same soul.
No you aren't missing it.
It just seemed to pan out during the scenario that the Eidolon was doing all the cool stuff whilst the Summoner stood around buffing, SM to give flanking allies and plinking with his crossbow.
As for RP with others that was pretty down to party members only. Tenticular mass doesn't make a great pub buddy. Most of the builds I have seen for sample Eidolons would stand out in the crowd a bit.
I don't think it has much to do with the individual builds but more of player expectation and for me it just didn't do it. If all the Paladin's cool stuff was for his warhorse or a Wizard's Familiar I would feel the same.
When I play I want the PC to shine not the warhorse, familiar, animal companion or Eidolon.
Don't get me wrong I love the concept and I am sure others will love to play them in a game and although it doesn't do it for me I will still play it for a few more sessions and give feedback.
Perhaps you can try remaking your character a bit to make him shine a little more. I think it is very possible to Stat out the summoner to make him the star of the show. What you have to work with:
3/4 BAB (works for clerics)
Light armor (a little tough but you have spells that can cover for it)
Simple weapon proficiency (this hurts, but nothing stops you from grabbing a feat for a better weapon)
What I would suggest doing. Give your summoner primary stats in Strength Dex and Con, with enough charisma to cast his spells but no more.
Take Exotic or Martial Weapon Proficiency of your choice, along with arcane strike and weapon focus.
Give your summoner spell like abilities for buffs for YOU.
If you have time to prepare for a fight dump things like enlarge person and haste on yourself (hint your eidolon can help with this).
Now fight side by side with your eidolon, using him as a flanker/supporter.
At 7th level you have enlarge person, bulls strength, and most importantly Haste in your favor. You could probably shine pretty well. I am going to try it when I play a summoner in an upcoming game. Give it a shot and see if it suits your fancy before you give up on the class.
Perhaps you can try remaking your character a bit to make him shine a little more. I think it is very possible to Stat out the summoner to make him the star of the show.
What I would suggest doing. Give your summoner primary stats in Strength Dex and Con, with enough charisma to cast his spells but no more.
Take Exotic or Martial Weapon Proficiency of your choice, along with arcane strike and weapon focus.
Give your summoner spell like abilities for buffs for YOU.
If you have time to prepare for a fight dump things like enlarge person and haste on yourself (hint your eidolon can help with this).
Now fight side by side with your eidolon, using him as a flanker/supporter.
I'm playing/testing a build very much like this in a PbP on these boards. You can see the character HERE and his Eidolon HERE. I did get fairly lucky on the 2d6+6 stat roll. Despite the light armor, his AC is actually quite respectable thanks to extended barkskin and Greater Shield Ally; he's got 33 AC most of the time.
Why does every class have to be a template on other classes? So this one class is summons focus and if that's not your cup of tea play something else.
Yeah, there's wisdom in this statement. There is also something to be said about a strong(ish) conceptual consensus behind the game. When the conceptual foundations of the a spreads to wide, it looses some of its attractiveness (4th ed did that for me with its panoply of classes). But coming from the advanced player guide, it IS an alternate base class after all. Not all games have to use it...
Maybe this class was made for the Eidolon to be the star, and the PC to be the backup, so to speak. If that was the intent the Eidolon should be as powerful as a PC class, and the Summoner should be about as good as an NPC class. Now I if not then there should be some transfer of power. I do think it fits the trope of the magical person summoning some creature that is more powerful than he is.
Perhaps you can try remaking your character a bit to make him shine a little more. I think it is very possible to Stat out the summoner to make him the star of the show. What you have to work with:
3/4 BAB (works for clerics)
Light armor (a little tough but you have spells that can cover for it)
Simple weapon proficiency (this hurts, but nothing stops you from grabbing a feat for a better weapon)What I would suggest doing. Give your summoner primary stats in Strength Dex and Con, with enough charisma to cast his spells but no more.
Take Exotic or Martial Weapon Proficiency of your choice, along with arcane strike and weapon focus.
Give your summoner spell like abilities for buffs for YOU.
If you have time to prepare for a fight dump things like enlarge person and haste on yourself (hint your eidolon can help with this).
Now fight side by side with your eidolon, using him as a flanker/supporter.
At 7th level you have enlarge person, bulls strength, and most importantly Haste in your favor. You could probably shine pretty well. I am going to try it when I play a summoner in an upcoming game. Give it a shot and see if it suits your fancy before you give up on the class.
Yea, I'm going to try it again with level of Rogue. I had pretty much done what you suggested and only had a CHA of 14 just to see how it all happened.
I just got this feeling that the gap between Eidolon and Summoner will widen and the PC class will just be the Eidolon's buffing machine.I'm not giving up on the class, I am still going to play it out and see where it takes me.
Laurfindel wrote "At any case, the game (Pathfinder RPG as the inheritor of D&D more than as a generic RPG) was built around the concept of making a character (the PC) and make it grow. Having a (relatively) feeble character with an external ability that shines for the character is moving away from this original concept. By itself, there's nothing wrong with this, and being stuck within its own paradigm isn't the way to go either; but the summoner seems to alter the essence of the game beyond my zone of comfort."
This is my problem as well. I think its an excellent class but not one I feel I want to play as the Summoner on his own is, well... Take his Eidolon away and what have you got? How many scenarios would a huge otherworld monster would be welcome at the inn? How many scenarios would this huge otherworldy monster be able to "go down the dungeon"? The lack of skill points is a pain as the PC hasn't even got skill monkey to fall back on. The PC I made had 6/Level (14INT, Human, Favored Class) and when spent out on Knowledge Arcana, Planes, UMD, Spellcraft left little over for any Bluff, Diplomacy, Stealth, etc.
This is my problem as well. I think its an excellent class but not one I feel I want to play as the Summoner on his own is, well... Take his Eidolon away and what have you got? How many scenarios would a huge otherworld monster would be welcome at the inn? How many scenarios would this huge otherworldy monster be able to "go down the dungeon"? The lack of skill points is a pain as the PC hasn't even got skill monkey to fall back on. The PC I made had 6/Level (14INT, Human, Favored Class) and when spent out on Knowledge Arcana, Planes, UMD, Spellcraft left little over for any Bluff, Diplomacy, Stealth, etc.
I think in that case he faces the same problem the mounted paladin/cavalier or the druid face. You have to account for that in your character. You dont HAVE to have huge eidolon, in fact you can make a pretty cool one keeping it medium size. It doesnt have to have 8 arms and 5 tentacles. If you are worried about it being in a tavern, take the bipedal base, keep it looking humanoid and have the rogue (or the eidolon itself) take ranks in disguise. A heavy hooded cloak, hat and face rap and you can bring that medium sized bipedal eidolon most anywhere.
I think you tried a little too hard to give it skills and lost out on what is is more likely to be good at. Those points put into strength and the favored class going to hp would help make it not feel like a backup to the eidolon in combat, especially if you build your eidolon to back you up instead. If you want to be the star with the pc, dont build your eidolon to be the star too. Build it to help you out.
Maybe this class was made for the Eidolon to be the star, and the PC to be the backup, so to speak. If that was the intent the Eidolon should be as powerful as a PC class, and the Summoner should be about as good as an NPC class. Now I if not then there should be some transfer of power. I do think it fits the trope of the magical person summoning some creature that is more powerful than he is.
You have hit the nail on the head.
The name Summoner should be changed to Eidolon Class :)I fully understand that but the Summoner, the person who is supposed to be in charge as it were, without his Eidolon is so weak no one would be playing it. That is the balance.
For me, although I love the concept, it should be the other way around. I would prefer a weaker Eidolon and a beefed up Summoner.
Or I could build the Eidolon as the boss who has a human summoner as an animal companion...
Perhaps I'll try that approach and have my summoner a bit of an idiot which the Eidolon uses.
You like interesting roleplay and social interaction? Try building a Drow Summoner, not a renegade Drow but one similar to a Kin Slayer, take skills like Bluff, Disguise, Sense Motive, and Linguistics. It makes for an interesting roleplay and gives you a chance to do some rollplay as well when need arises.
By the way in a world where Drow are mostly KOS this build is hard to roleplay, but still fun as hell. (This is a hypothetical fix, try it out though, tell me how it goes.
Maybe this class was made for the Eidolon to be the star, and the PC to be the backup, so to speak. If that was the intent the Eidolon should be as powerful as a PC class, and the Summoner should be about as good as an NPC class. Now I if not then there should be some transfer of power. I do think it fits the trope of the magical person summoning some creature that is more powerful than he is.You have hit the nail on the head.
The name Summoner should be changed to Eidolon Class :)
I fully understand that but the Summoner, the person who is supposed to be in charge as it were, without his Eidolon is so weak no one would be playing it. That is the balance.For me, although I love the concept, it should be the other way around. I would prefer a weaker Eidolon and a beefed up Summoner.
Or I could build the Eidolon as the boss who has a human summoner as an animal companion...
Perhaps I'll try that approach and have my summoner a bit of an idiot which the Eidolon uses.
I highly recomend you ready Rhialto The Magnificant from the dying earth series by Jack Vance if you have any interest in having the eidolon roleplay as the one that is in charge (either actually or in just the defacto sense).
But I still think it can be made to have the Summoner shine if give him buffs for you. He casts haste on you, you cast enlarge person on yourself and go to town. You can also make the eidolon trip guys for you to hit for instance. He give you an advantage but you are the one actually taking out the enemy for the most part.
Maybe this class was made for the Eidolon to be the star, and the PC to be the backup, so to speak. If that was the intent the Eidolon should be as powerful as a PC class, and the Summoner should be about as good as an NPC class. Now I if not then there should be some transfer of power. I do think it fits the trope of the magical person summoning some creature that is more powerful than he is.You have hit the nail on the head.
The name Summoner should be changed to Eidolon Class :)
I fully understand that but the Summoner, the person who is supposed to be in charge as it were, without his Eidolon is so weak no one would be playing it. That is the balance.For me, although I love the concept, it should be the other way around. I would prefer a weaker Eidolon and a beefed up Summoner.
Or I could build the Eidolon as the boss who has a human summoner as an animal companion...
Perhaps I'll try that approach and have my summoner a bit of an idiot which the Eidolon uses.
In terms of reasons for the Eidolon to work with the summoner I submit the follwing...
1) It takes the mojority of the summoners power to keep the eidolon at bay
2) maybe they have a close bond that transcends relative might
3) The Eidolon is actaully a manifestiation of the Summoners arcane might from another plane.
4) There is a pact made in the families past that binds this extra planner creature to the bloodline
5) The Summoner has a contract with the Eidolon and vows to perform some deed for him in repayment for servitude.
those are just five off the top of my head...maybe you could try one of those and see if the flavor catches up with the crunch.
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You know I don't get the summoner is too weak argument, well at least not in the context that bards are already in the game. The summoner has the exact same spell progression as a bard, has a better spell list than the bard, has the same BAB and HP as the bard, and then for every cool ability a bard gets you have a kick ass eidelon that is actually a melee combatant.
And as for a summoner without an eidelon, you mean like whenever he is in a town or city where people would freak at his tentacle monster, well yeah, he's weaker, but he's not useless. Instead of his fantastical eidolon he just calls up a summon from his spell like ability and buffs that instead, the character is far from useless without his eidelon, but the complaint seems to be that a summoner can't do much if he hasn't summoned something. That's his schtick he summons something to do all of his work for him and makes sure it has the power to get the job done, the summoner should never be the one doing the awesome, that's exactly why he's a summoner so he can call something to him and doesn't need to be awesome by himself.
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Why are we being so aggressive toward anyone who isn't thrilled about the direction the summoner class has gone. I feel like his tone has been very conciliatory, and you all are responding by saying, in so many words, "Well, you're stupid and don't...
I completely agree. I've been bludgeone about the head and face for my dislike of the Cavalier . . . and I dislike the Summoner even more. I agree that the pet should not take center stage of the character (and the party!). The foresee this class, unless solely used as a BBEG or SMEBG, will do more to disrupt games than contribute to them.I'm definitely not feeling it . . .
You know not agreeing with you is in no way hostility or calling you stupid, no one here has been hostile or boiled the argument down to "you're stupid".
Some people just have different ideas about how things work, I really think you're reading way to much hostility into what people are saying.
You have hit the nail on the head.
The name Summoner should be changed to Eidolon Class :)
I fully understand that but the Summoner, the person who is supposed to be in charge as it were, without his Eidolon is so weak no one would be playing it. That is the balance.For me, although I love the concept, it should be the other way around. I would prefer a weaker Eidolon and a beefed up Summoner.
Or I could build the Eidolon as the boss who has a human summoner as an animal companion...
Perhaps I'll try that approach and have my summoner a bit of an idiot which the Eidolon uses.
Heh, Calvin & Hobbes.
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and just a thought, yeah the summoner seems to get more attention, but and believe me I feel terrible about using this analogy, who's the main character of poke'mon? Ash has no powers whatsoever, but the story focuses around him, and all he does is cheer on pikachu who does literally everything for him. The more powerful of the two isn't necessarily the driving force behind the story. I mean litterally in that show all he does is cheer on his pokemon, if you watch it he rarely even uses strategy in his match ups throwing the creatures with the weakest powers to oppose enemies, but he's still the person it's focused around. at least in this case the summoner has a decent suite of powers even if they aren't as flashy as a wizards.
Perhaps you can try remaking your character a bit to make him shine a little more. I think it is very possible to Stat out the summoner to make him the star of the show.
This is exactly what I have done with a Summoner character I created. I don't know that I'll actually be able to get good playtest feedback before the playtest ends, but I really don't see anything preventing the summoner from being the "main character."
If you're interested in looking at this character: Google Docs. He's made with a 25 point build, which definitely makes this sort of character easier. I'm more concerned about a character who is competent and fun to play than one who is super optimized, so comments on details of the build are NOT welcome. Comments on the general of the character are.
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Like an earlier poster, I'm going pretty gishy with my Summoner. The best armor I can afford and a great axe for smashy (at the cost of a feat). Hopefully, Josh will have v2.1 of Guide of Pathfinder Society by our next game so I can try.
Unlike most people who have been focusing on ways to make their Eidolon do as much damage as possible, I've been looking at ways to make him able to help the summoner. Quadruped with natural armor, armor training, and trip will give him fairly good tanking ability along with the ability to give the summoner a bonus to hit if the trip works. Shield Ally will provide a similar bonus to the Summoner and the Eidolon can have additional controlling abilities like grappling and whatnot.
As someone who thoroughly enjoys the druid class, and the animal companion that comes with it, I can say first hand that a pet class like druid or summoner is a tricky one to play. In order to get the full flavor of these classes, you really have to know what kind of relationship between master and pet you want to set up. If you want a large massive front line pet, yes you will lose access to him in a town; this is just as true of a fighter whose primary weapon is a masssive 2 handed bastard sword, though. You just have to accept that you won't always have access to your primary weapon of choice if you go this route. If this kind of situation comes up infrequently, you just draw on your other abilities; fighters generally carry daggers or shortswords precisely because they will not always to be able to use their big massive weapon of death. If it comes up all the time, redesign the eidolon. The fact that you can change your eidolon at every level is nice in that regard, since you can adjust the eidolon if its old form is no longer effective. A bump in the number of skill points would help, though, in giving the summoner a backup to his class skills. In the end, though, the way this class is written the eidolon can serve whatever role the player wants it to play. I am not trying to bash anyone, but share the point of view of someone who has played with the previous pet classes extensively.
You know I don't get the summoner is too weak argument, well at least not in the context that bards are already in the game.
I'm not convinced of that either. However, I'm worried that the eilodon can easily out-stage its summoned (which is actually part of the intention as I understand).
I feel terrible about using this analogy, who's the main character of poke'mon? Ash has no powers whatsoever, but the story focuses around him, and all he does is cheer on pikachu who does literally everything for him.
And while there is nothing wrong playing Pokemon RPG, it is a different game form D&D/Pathfinder, emphasizing a different aspect of the character(s). Star Wars RPG and Pathfinder RPG have a lot in common, but its a different game despite the similitudes, not only in setting, but in the way characters are played vis-a-vis each others.
The summoner brings a shift in the way characters are played. Admittedly, this is not something entirely new as it has its precedents with the druid and the Leadership feat. Only, the summoner brings it to a new level.
I don't think there's something wrong with this shift in the paradigm of playing a D&D/Pathfinder character (as opposed to any character from any other RPG). Only for me (I wonder if I'm the only one?), this is unsettling beyond the "if you don't like it just don't play one". I'm exaggerating here, but still I think the Summoner should come with a warning sign...
'findel
The summoner has an identity crisis, and the Eidolon does steal the show. I've asked it once, and I'll ask it again, how did such a wimpy character manage to coerce an outsider of wondrous power into doing his bidding on the material plane? I don't know, it just doesn't seem like a feasible task for a buffer.
Identity crisis can be a lot of fun to play. Maybe the summoner sees himself as the "pet" or the servant of a greater entity? Calling his Eidolon "The master" and, when it's present, refuses to talk directly to fellow adventurers : "Wait, I'll ask the master first... he decides."
Heck, maybe the summoner IS but a primordial host to his Eidolon...
Properly played, could be a lot of fun, if a bit creepy.
You have a good point about the warning sign Laurelfindel. But I would extend it to any class that potentially gets a pet and the Leadership feat. All pets can be played in such a manner to make the pc insignificant; the eidolon is no different. That does not mean, however, that all pets have to be played in that manner. Especially with the ability to resshape the eidolon every level by altering how you spend the evolution points, there is no reason someone who wants their pc to shine can't play the summoner class. Just build a small suppport type eidolon and give the pc stats that lets him stay on or near the front line. Just like druids, summoners can be back line support with a shield/weapon (their pet)or melee fighters who use their pets to setup flank and other combat maneuvers or anything in between.
You have a good point about the warning sign Laurelfindel. But I would extend it to any class that potentially gets a pet and the Leadership feat. All pets can be played in such a manner to make the pc insignificant; the eidolon is no different. That does not mean, however, that all pets have to be played in that manner. Especially with the ability to resshape the eidolon every level by altering how you spend the evolution points, there is no reason someone who wants their pc to shine can't play the summoner class. Just build a small suppport type eidolon and give the pc stats that lets him stay on or near the front line. Just like druids, summoners can be back line support with a shield/weapon (their pet)or melee fighters who use their pets to setup flank and other combat maneuvers or anything in between.
Yeah, I admit I push my opinion farther then I meant to.
But if I remember right, the Leadership feat use to come with a warning sign, and as for the druid, the animal companion is a strong feature, but not its main feature; it is possible to play a decent druid without a pet.
And as I said, don't get me wrong; the summonner is my favorite class of the four revealed so far. Only, what the class involves (both mechanically and in the way it is played) demand a setting that takes eilodon into significant considration (i.e not just another kind of monster). Demand is a stronger word than what I really mean, but that's my impression of the summoner.
'findel
Yeah, I admit I push my opinion farther then I meant to.But if I remeber right, the Leadership feat use to come with a warning sign, and as for the druid, the animal companion was a strong feature, but not its main feature; it was possible to play a decent druid without a pet.
And as I said, don't get me wrong; the summonner is my favorite class of the four revealed so far. Only what the class involves (both mechanically and in the way it is played) demands a setting that takes eilodon into significant considration (i.e not just another kind of monster). Demand is a stronger word than I really mean, but that's my perception of the summoner.
'findel
I think I can agree with you on some points, but thought I should throw in my two cents. The summoner is my favorite class that I've run into outside of the core 11, including during 3.5. I won't pretend to be un-prejudiced because of this, but I love it, and actually think I can fit it into almost any setting. In my case, I like the idea of, say, a character who made a pact with a being of great power, such as a Sidhe, Demon, Devil, or so forth to get their power, and they call forth an aspect of it's power that they can control to a degree. It works incredibly well for me, especially since I've wanted to play a Final Fantasy style summoner in a number of games. But, by the same token, you're right in that some settings the class wouldn't work in, including a couple of my own homebrew ones. The one thing I'd like is the ability to get the eidolon to higher mental attributes, via a base form. But that's a minor gripe, and one I can live with or build myself.
As far as setting goes, its a small issue since you already really should be working with your gm to make sure that he doesn't consisently write adventures where your pet is completely useless. Making the pact aspect work for that particular campaign is just one part of that process.
As far as setting goes, its a small issue since you already really should be working with your gm to make sure that he doesn't consisently write adventures where your pet is completely useless. Making the pact aspect work for that particular campaign is just one part of that process.
There's more to a setting than that, but yes, ultimately it comes down to 'speak with your DM' and make sure it fits the game.
It works incredibly well for me, especially since I've wanted to play a Final Fantasy style summoner in a number of games.
Yes, that would work superbly. At the other hand of the scope, it would also fit a Conan wannabe setting (except that an eilodon's evolutions may get out of hand in a low-magic setting).
Perhaps you are right about altering the fluff to make it fit properly. I should try to look at it from a diferent angle. I had both a dwarven barbarian and a grey elf barbarian in my game that were anything but barbarians except in the name of their class, only the class fitted the concept of the character best...
I understand there is much more to the setting than what I specifically described, but as far as the player is concerned, the main issue is figuring out how his particular character fits in the world. The DM is the one that ultimately has to deal with the rest, and should be prepared to say up front whether or not its feasible.
As far as setting goes, its a small issue since you already really should be working with your gm to make sure that he doesn't consisently write adventures where your pet is completely useless. Making the pact aspect work for that particular campaign is just one part of that process.There's more to a setting than that, but yes, ultimately it comes down to 'speak with your DM' and make sure it fits the game.
It works incredibly well for me, especially since I've wanted to play a Final Fantasy style summoner in a number of games.
Yes, that would work superbly. At the other hand of the scope, it would also fit a Conan wannabe setting (except that an eilodon's evolutions may get out of hand in a low-magic setting).
Perhaps you are right about altering the fluff to make it fit properly. I should try to look at it from a diferent angle. I had both a dwarven barbarian and a grey elf barbarian in my game that were anything but barbarians except in the name of their class, only the class fitted the concept of the character best...
Honestly the 'speak with your dm' clause to me is on almost all the classes. Every try to play a skill heavy diplomat in a capaign that turned out be be a combat crawl? Or the reverse for that matter? A fighter primed for combat in a campaign that is full of diplomacy and social encounters? I really dont see this as different. If you dont like the idea of the 'pet' taking center stage, you can make the class not do that. If you are in a setting where a big monster is not acceptable, you can make the thing medium sized, nearly human, and have skills and spell like abilities to make him look the rest of the way. The class is so flexible i really find it hard to believe it wont fit any fluff at all that involves a summoned, crafted, captured, or trained creature.
Maybe its because to me what I want from paizo is the rules, and I will set the fluff that it isnt a concern to me. I am not sure, and I hope that it does not negatively impact your experience with the game.
I understand there is much more to the setting than what I specifically described, but as far as the player is concerned, the main issue is figuring out how his particular character fits in the world. The DM is the one that ultimately has to deal with the rest, and should be prepared to say up front whether or not its feasible.
true, I never meant to undermine your post. I appologise if you felt I did; I actually agree with your satatement.
I would get rid of the summon SLA and in return give the summoner the option to choose an eidolon from an extremely short list based on level (2-4 maybe), of course only the one chosen can be used for that day. This would give the summoner some more flexibility to make up for the lost SLAs. It also makes the summoner more final fantasy like.