You no longer need to convince me that the summoner needs some adjustments.
Personally, I think the d8 HD and 3/4 BAB are also not quite right for the class.
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MiB, the Basilisk is not a good example. It's a one-trick pony, it either stonegazes the party (or at least, the damage dealers) or it's a walkower. Even for Joe Armstrong, the lvl 5 fighter.
His role is not to threaten the party with TPK (unless everybody fubar his Fort save), his role is to make the party blow resources on de-stoning (possibly horribly annoying them if they don't have some).
Take some "brute" monster for the comprasion, should work better.
Time for the continuing adventures of Ash the summoner. Ash has used his X/day SLA ability, but he's still a complete coward. I'm skipping level 1 this time because level 1 isn't balanced. At level 1, the eidolon is better than a fighter because of 2 HD.
So on to level 5.
Level 5:
At level 1, he sends in Jack to get the job done. Jack is a tiny sphere with arms radiating from odd angles, and walks around on his palms, with a combination of a loping and rolling motion. Two of the arms lack claws, but have opposable digits, allowing him to manipulate tools and weapons. His typical attack strategy is to bound over to foes and try to stuff them in his slavering, acid-dripping maw, but lately Ash has taught him to supplement these attacks with a greatsword.Jack abuses what I feel is the most efficient system for an eidolon who does damage: Multiattack, Pounce, Energy Attacks, lots and lots of claws, and the Improved Natural Attack feat on the claws. This comes online at level 4, when you can afford Pounce, Energy, and extra claws, and will be continuing to get ridiculous as we go up in levels. Later addons will be Improved Damage and Rend.
Ash's strategy with Jack around is to turn invisible every fight. He can do this 3 fights a day, and the fourth fight he summon-novas. So, either the foe needs to be able to deal with Jack on his own, or able to identify and isolate an invisible character who has the money to have a backup wand of invisibility. Ash is a lazy coward, so his entire contribution to combat is casting Mage Armor out of combat, and hiding behind something while invisible.
Jack
Quadrupedal (at one point) Eidolon 5
N Medium outsider (native)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
Defense
AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 18 (+2 dex, +4 natural armor, +4 mage armor)
hp 49 (6d10+12)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +1
Offense
Speed 40 ft.
Melee: +1 greatsword +10 (2d6+6), bite +8 (d6+2 plus d6 acid), 4 claws +8/+8/+8/+8 (d6+2 plus d6 acid)
Special attacks: pounce
...
Why didn't the monster turn Jack to stone also?
I wonder if adding equipment to part of the evolution point cost would help balance out some of these problems.
But the issues don't lie with his HP or BAB, which are both perfectly fine. It's the summon nova and eidolon power creep.You no longer need to convince me that the summoner needs some adjustments.
Personally, I think the d8 HD and 3/4 BAB are also not quite right for the class.
These are minor issues, but they do not fit the concept. After going nova and with a dead eidolon the summoner is still very much a better fighter than a wizard. I cannot explain why a summoner is, can you?
I dont see them beating the mummy, unless they know they are fighting it before hand and prep for it. I will be coming back to check the results. This is interesting.
These are minor issues, but they do not fit the concept. After going nova and with a dead eidolon the summoner is still very much a better fighter than a wizard. I cannot explain why a summoner is, can you?But the issues don't lie with his HP or BAB, which are both perfectly fine. It's the summon nova and eidolon power creep.You no longer need to convince me that the summoner needs some adjustments.
Personally, I think the d8 HD and 3/4 BAB are also not quite right for the class.
He only gets 6th level spells. As a DM ,a class with medium BAB and 6th level spells is a lot easier to hand than one with low BAB and 9th level spells. At low levels the summoner might be ahead, but around 7th level full casters start changing gears.
The summoner seems like the side kick, which is my only concern. I would bring the Eidolon down a bit, and give some power to the Eidolon. There are many fantasy tropes where the caster calls forth something way more powerful than he is, and I dont even have a problem with it in Pathfinder, but at a glance the **summoner seems useless without his Eidolon. I think he should be able to contribute something.
**I have not looked over his spell list in detail so there may be more to the summoner than what I am seeing.
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These are minor issues, but they do not fit the concept. After going nova and with a dead eidolon the summoner is still very much a slightly less absolutely crap fighter than a wizard . I cannot explain why a summoner is, can you?
Fixed that one for ya :) Well I guess that the Bard was feeling lonely on his porch.
Fixed that one for ya :) Well I guess that the Bard was feeling lonely on his porch.
These are minor issues, but they do not fit the concept. After going nova and with a dead eidolon the summoner is still very much a slightly less absolutely crap fighter than a wizard . I cannot explain why a summoner is, can you?
I wander if he meant melee fighting. I hope not. Wizards don't do melee fighting.
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I would just like to point out that your eidolon has too many evolutions for its level.
A level 5 quadruped eidolon gets 8 points in its evolution pool and gets the following evolutions for free:
Bite(1)-1 point
Limbs- Legs (2) - 4 points
for a total of 5 free points of evolution.Lets have a look at your eidolon's additional evolutions:
Limbs-arms (3) - 6 points
Claws (2) - 2 points
weapon training martial (1) 2 points
energy attack (2) (maybe 3 if each set of claws counts as an attack. I am unsure of how that works)- 4 points (6 if each pair of claws counts as one attack)
pounce (1) 1 point
Grand total:
15 points in evolutions (17 if each pair of claws counts as a separate attack for energy weapons.
That is the evolution pool of a 12th level eidolon. I think a correctly made eidolon could probably still beat a basilisk. But I would like to see your test run again with an eidolon that is at 5th level power not 12th.Your current eidolon has almost twice as many evolutions as it should.
love,
malkav
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Limbs-arms (3) - 6 points
Claws (2) - 2 points
weapon training martial (1) 2 points
energy attack (2) (maybe 3 if each set of claws counts as an attack. I am unsure of how that works)- 4 points (6 if each pair of claws counts as one attack)
pounce (1) 1 point
Well, he gets two of the limbs (legs) for free from his base form. He only bought one additional limbs (arms) for two points.
The weapon training he got from a feat.
Energy attack affects all natural attacks, so he only needs to buy that one once.
So that brings the correct total to:
Limbs (arms) - 2 points
Claws (2) - 2 points
Energy Attack - 2 points
Pounce - 1 point
So actually he only used 7 evolution points. Feel up to getting reach on all those claws?
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Limbs-arms (3) - 6 points
Claws (2) - 2 points
weapon training martial (1) 2 points
energy attack (2) (maybe 3 if each set of claws counts as an attack. I am unsure of how that works)- 4 points (6 if each pair of claws counts as one attack)
pounce (1) 1 pointWell, he gets two of the limbs (legs) for free from his base form. He only bought one additional limbs (arms) for two points.
The weapon training he got from a feat.
Energy attack affects all natural attacks, so he only needs to buy that one once.
So that brings the correct total to:
Limbs (arms) - 2 points
Claws (2) - 2 points
Energy Attack - 2 points
Pounce - 1 pointSo actually he only used 7 evolution points. Feel up to getting reach on all those claws?
I noted at the beginning of my post that he got the legs and bite for free. If you will notice it is in a list all by itself as a demonstration of what the quad form gets for free.
Good catch on some of that (i missed the feat and misread elemental attack). But hes still over spent. Limbs cost two points PER PAIR OF limbs. The ability states that you get a pair of the chosen limbs when you select it. This is why the base form for quadruped has a (2) after limbs-legs. It had to buy it twice. Claws work the same way. the ability only gives yuo pair of claws.
So lets do a recount then shall we?
Limbs-arms (3 pair) - 6 points
Pounce (1) - 1 points
claws (2 pair) - 2 points
Energy attacks -(1) 2 points
This is still an 11 point eidolon (8th level)
I would still like to see it redone as a 5th level eidolon and see rematch.
reference:
Limbs (ex): The eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs.These limbs can take one of two forms.....mechanical description of the two forms of limbs, then at the end of the ability description....This evolution can be taken more than once.
So no he does not want reach with that.
love,
malkav
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Limbs-arms (3) - 6 points
Claws (2) - 2 points
weapon training martial (1) 2 points
energy attack (2) (maybe 3 if each set of claws counts as an attack. I am unsure of how that works)- 4 points (6 if each pair of claws counts as one attack)
pounce (1) 1 pointWell, he gets two of the limbs (legs) for free from his base form. He only bought one additional limbs (arms) for two points.
The weapon training he got from a feat.
Energy attack affects all natural attacks, so he only needs to buy that one once.
So that brings the correct total to:
Limbs (arms) - 2 points
Claws (2) - 2 points
Energy Attack - 2 points
Pounce - 1 pointSo actually he only used 7 evolution points. Feel up to getting reach on all those claws?
I noted at the beginning of my post that he got the legs and bite for free. If you will notice it is in a list all by itself as a demonstration of what the quad form gets for free.
Good catch on some of that (i missed the feat and misread elemental attack). But hes still over spent. Limbs cost two points PER PAIR OF limbs. The ability states that you get a pair of the chosen limbs when you select it. This is why the base form for quadruped has a (2) after limbs-legs. It had to buy it twice. Claws work the same way. the ability only gives yuo pair of claws.
So lets do a recount then shall we?
Limbs-arms (3 pair) - 6 points
Pounce (1) - 1 points
claws (2 pair) - 2 points
Energy attacks -(1) 2 pointsThis is still an 11 point eidolon (8th level)
I would still like to see it redone as a 5th level eidolon and see rematch.
reference:
Limbs (ex): The eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs.These limbs can take one of two forms.....mechanical description of the two forms of limbs, then at the end of the ability description....This evolution can be taken more than once.So no he does not want reach with that.
love,
malkav
Umm... Where are you getting 3 pairs of arms? I am only seeing 1 pair of arms.
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I bow out then. I was not counting the legs limbs as part of the requirement for the claws evolution. I had an image of a little four legged orb flailing about with pairs of arms. But the above posters are correct and I am incorrect. The limbs Legs (2) that the quad gets for free meet the requirement for claws and this eidolon is inf act 1 point short.
Serves me right for attempting to read and do math before coffee.
love,
malkav
was the party's fighter ok with given a pet a +1 great sword and a str belt +2?
So actually he only used 7 evolution points. Feel up to getting reach on all those claws?Reach says one attack, not one attack type. So you could give a claw reach, but not all the claws.
Anyway, I made a bunch of mistakes, all of them making Jack weaker. He's missing an evo point, he should have iterative attacks on the greatsword, the level 10 version is short a feat...
I'll see if I can't bugswat on the second round, but making eidolons is time-consuming and complicated.
Quick issue: Full attacking with a weapon means you only get 1 natural attack as a secondary attack. You can't full attack with a weapon and still get full attack with your natural weapons, it's either full attack with natural weapons and no manufactured weapons, or full attack with a weapon and get one natural attack in addition.
Jack would be better served with just natural weapons since he can hit more often with better bonuses than he could with a weapon and one extra attack.
Quick issue: Full attacking with a weapon means you only get 1 natural attack as a secondary attack.
Not quite:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
Secondary attacks, but you get to use all of them that aren't involved in using the manufactured weapons.
I'm going to rebuild level 5 Jack just quickly
Jack
HP: 5d10+10 = (37)
BAB: +5
Fort: +4 (+6)
Ref: +4 (+6)
Will: +1
Speed: 40 feet
Evolutions: 8 (Claws(3), Limbs (1), Acid, Pounce) 3x1+2+2+1=8 (feet can have claws too)
Natural Armor: 2 (shape) + 4 (level) = 6
Stats: Str 14 (+2 level), Dex 14 (+2 level), Con 13 (+1 level boost), Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
Feats: martial weapon proficiency (1st level) Multi attack (3rd level) Isn't needed as all bite and claw attacks are primary, except when attacking with the weapon Improved Natural Weapons[claws] (5th level)
AC: 10 + 6 (natural armor) + 3 (Dex) + 4 (Mage Armor) = 23 Touch 13 Flat Footed = 20
Full Attack: Bite +6 (1d6+3+1d6 acid), Claw +6/+6/+6/+6 (1d6+3+1d6 acid), Greatsword +8 (2d6+4) or Bite +8 (1d6+3+1d6 acid), Claw +8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8 (1d6+3+1d6 acid)
Claws have to be bought for each set of limbs seperately, however with the two freebie legs you only need one set of limbs, with both pairs of legs able to have claws. Natural attack clearly outshine the Greatsword.
EDIT: Thanks for reminding me of that Zurai
That said, claws are always secondary (per the eidolon claws description)
Jason clarified that claws are supposed to be primary attacks in either the Round 2 Rules Questions thread or the Summoner Questions thread (I forget which).
One last bit MIB, at level 5 summoner the Eidolon should only have 5 hit dice.
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2 things.
1. It was unclear if Jason was thinking of making claws in general primary attacks or only the free claws evolution from the biped form( as it is it's only natural attack )
2. I think pounce should be re-worked to state that it is not compatible with weapon attacks. I.e. you can attack with all of your natural attacks as part of a charge or you can make one weapon attack.
