...The PC's argued this ruling saying that that there was only one role for a grapple. Does this mean you can't "join" a grapple once it starts?
No. Once a grapple starts the grappler does not immediately benefit from assistance. I.e. the grapple chack has already succeeded, so it can obviously not be done "better". If other grapplers join the grapple they can help the first grappler maintain the grapple (+2 each). But it is correct that only one grappler is supposed to roll the grapple check. If the grappel fails another chocker can attempt a grapple and if successful will become the active grappler.
Can you only Aid one of the people in the grapple?
Yes. You can help either the active grappler or the grappled creature.
What if I don't want to aid the person grappling the opponent?
Then don't.
What if that person is trying to pin them, but I want to render them unconcious instead?
Only the active grappler gets to determine the effect of subsequent grapple checks.
If you want to knock out a grappled creature you can attack it normally at a -4 penalty and do non-lethal damage. If the target is already grappled it should be relatively easy to do.... Also, It seems to me that if a choker has 2 tentacle attack/round, he'd never attempt to grapple on the first attack because he wouldn't get to attack with the second tentacle.
The grab ability only allows a creature the free grapple attack against opponents one size smaller. I do not see any exception in the chocker description.
Against smaller creatures the choker would however get a second chance at grapling if the first attempt failed.... How I interpereted the rules after I re-read them was all 5 of the chokers would have to ready a standar action to "aid" as the 6th choker attacks. If the 6th hits, he does his attack damage and his grab ablility to grapple, then the other chokers can aid the grapple (8 +2 for each successful aid). If the role succeeds, all 6 chokers can do their "constrict" damage.
The other 5 chokers are not actually making grapple checks. they are making Aid Another checks, and therefore do not deal constriction damage.
Then on the PC's turn, he'd have to beat a CMD of the main choker +2 for each choker who aided.
Yes.
Is this correct? I think it's a bit silly because each choker is giving up the potential for 4d4 +12 damage (2 tentacles at 1d4 +3 plus the constrict damage for each tentacle) for a 1d4+3 constrict which depends on one of two roles succeeding. 6 chokers attack 12 times vs one choker attacking twice....
Remember that monsters only deal costriction damage for each successful graple check. A normal chocker can therefore only do 1d4+3 constriction damage per round, no matter what.
O.k, A few things:
1. Choker description: "A choker will attempt to grasp creatures of almost any size, but prefers lone prey of its size or smaller. "
so they CAN grapple medium creatures, but this is not relevant to my question, so we can just replace Choker with any other creature with Grab.
Yes, they CAN grapple, but they CAN'T use the grab ability.
I have not been able to find an example of a dispensation on the grab rule. But I expect one would leave no room for doubt. To me the description under the chocker does not seem to allow the use of the free grapple benefit against small and larger enemies.2. "Then don't." isn't a very constructive answer. I was giving an example: "Let's say someone who is grappling is trying to move their concious opponent into another room, but I felt it would be more helpful to the situation to just pin the foe instead, is it impossible to enter the grapple and attempt to pin?"
The active grappler gets to make that choice, by RAW, no one else.
3. Is this how I should run a choker (or any creature with improved grab):
a. roll to hit, if successful role damage and role a grapple check, if successful do constrict damage. Do I get to role to hit with my second tentacle against the same opponent? ie: role to hit, if successful, role damage then grapple and if successful role constrict damage.
Roll to hit. If you succeed roll damage and roll grapple. If grapple succeeds, roll constrict - end. If grapple fails repeat for the second tentacle. If that is what you meant, yes.
b. If the first choker hits, then succeeds in grappling and constricting, does this mean that none of the other chokers can use their grab or constrict abilities against that same foe? If so, it seems to limit their ability to help each other.
Only one choker gets to do constrict. It limits the damage potential of the chocker squad, but they will be very effective when ganging up in keeping their target grappled/pinned.
One thing that I don't agree with you on is the rules say:
"Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check..."
It doesn't say, "multiple creature can attempt to help another grappler..." Although that is the purpose of the "aid" action, I think that this is just another use for it. So it seems to me, by this sentence, even though the other creatures are making "aid" actions, they are using the "aid" action to actually grapple and therefore they would all get to use their constrict.
Lets finish that quote:
"Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check..., with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action)."I think the rules are quite clear:
A - the active grappler/the initial grappler is the only one that makes a [grapple] check.
B - the remaining grapplers assist in the grapple (using the Aid Another action).
"Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check..., with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action)."
I think the rules are quite clear:
A - the active grappler/the initial grappler is the only one that makes a [grapple] check.
B - the remaining grapplers assist in the grapple (using the Aid Another action).
I think there's a big difference between aiding a grapple and attempting to grapple. We won't agree on this one, Grandfather, but I'm inclined to say that everyone who aids in the grapple will gain the grappled condition if the check succeeds.I think I'll have to house rule something. I can see these grapple rules don't have the flexibility I want.
I think you're both saying the same. Maybe it would be clearer if we all considered Aid Another a mechanic rather than an action.
To assist in grapple you must be grappling just like to give an AC bonus you must take an attack action. The Aid Another mechanic just changes the outcome of those actions; attack or grapple, but they still must be taken.
Well, aid is a standard action. It isn't done as part of an attack action. The choker(with 2 attacks), therfore couldn't use his first attack to hit, then use his other attack to "aid" his ally.
No it can't, I never said otherwise. To aid his ally he must join the grapple. Either through standard grapple or by attacking and improved grabbing(to which it gets two attempts, one for each attack).
There's a fundamental difference between how Grandfather and I interperate the rules: Grandfather is saying only 2 people can ever be in a grapple at the same time. No-one else can join or affect the grapple in any way with the exception of using an "aid other" action, in which case, the person is aiding by changing the odds in favour of one of the grapplers. Once they've aided (as a standard action), they can use their move action to withdraw from the grapplers if they want. (although the dm would probably rule that the grappler wouldn't get the bonus to his CMD since his ally's, who aided, are not adjacent when the opponent tries to escape the grapple later in the round) - but the point is, they're not grappled.
I don't see where Grandfather states that you can aid in a grapple without joining it.
I'm saying that multiple people should be able to join the grapple simultaneously. That the multiple grapplers who "aided" also have the grappled condition if they wish to continue to add their bonus to the check.
That's how the rules work. You join the grapple, then aid, not otherwise.
In my interpretation, all the chokers would be able to use their constrict if they would have successfully aided and entered a grapple with an opponent.
No they can't. If it was this way they'd hurt their allies too. Grappling rules only make one distinction, either you are the one who established the grapple or you are not. The first grappler decides the maneuver, be it deal damage or any other. By joining you can aid him or oppose him. Nothing else.
It still doesn't answer questions regarding multiple grapplers wanting to do different maneuvers. I'm not sure the rules are that advanced. It doesn't look like it's covered and, as Maezer put it, is in the realm of house-rules. That said, I still welcome any comments, suggestions, constructive feedback etc...
It's adressed, they can't. But as you say there's always room for houseruling. Be it Maezer's idea or any other.
For me the rules are sound.
I don't want to get into a debate about Chokers. A small creature with the grab ability that can't actually use its abilities against the PC's does not deserve a CR2 designation. They will be able to use their grab against the PC's in my game.Yes, they CAN grapple, but they CAN'T use the grab ability.
I have not been able to find an example of a dispensation on the grab rule. But I expect one would leave no room for doubt. To me the description under the chocker does not seem to allow the use of the free grapple benefit against small and larger enemies.
To me constricting creatures like the chocker make it quite clear why only one opponent is the one making the grapple roll (aside from the rules saying so).
Chockers like to gang up on single weak creatures. If they did that and each made aid checks that were actually grapples the first one might miss at a CMB of +8 but the rest would all succeed at a cmb +8 (except on a roll of 1) since the DC is always 10. That would be an automatic 6d6+18 dmg every round at a CMB of +18.As it is the grab ability mainly serves to double the chockers grapple bonus and to make it really easy to eat familiars. Whether CR 2 is too high is debatable.
If you want to allow chockers to grab creatures of size large and smaller, I do not have a big issue with that. but the fundamentals of a grapple with miltiple grapplers is quite well explained.
"Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check..., with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action)."
I think the rules are quite clear:
A - the active grappler/the initial grappler is the only one that makes a [grapple] check.
B - the remaining grapplers assist in the grapple (using the Aid Another action).RAW - "multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target" Only the first makes the check while the other use the Aid other action "TO ATTEMPT TO GRAPPLE" Not to aid the ONE who grapples. I think they are using the "aid other" as a mechanic to resolve multiple grapplers. I don't think it's as clear as you think.
I think there's a big difference between aiding a grapple and attempting to grapple. We won't agree on this one, Grandfather, but I'm inclined to say that everyone who aids in the grapple will gain the grappled condition if the check succeeds.
As I read the rules the other grapplers join the grapple and gain the grappled condition. But they are making aid another checks rather than grappling. We probably will not agree there.
I don't see where Grandfather states that you can aid in a grapple without joining it.
Thanks. I didn't. :D
I think I'll have to house rule something. I can see these grapple rules don't have the flexibility I want.
It is true that the grapple rules are not very nuanced. There is not a great degree of comlexity in them, but that was intentional. The mechanics are intended to be fast and relatively simple and on par with other combat maneuvers.
As far as I know Jason and James I am sure they would say the same and encourage you to make new grappling house rules, to suit your needs and campaign. If you want more complexity and options that is totaly fair.
For additional insight as to my interpretation of grapple rules look at this thread.
Yes, they CAN grapple, but they CAN'T use the grab ability.
I have not been able to find an example of a dispensation on the grab rule. But I expect one would leave no room for doubt. To me the description under the chocker does not seem to allow the use of the free grapple benefit against small and larger enemies.
In the Bestiary there are only two creatures that have a 'special' Grab ability, and this is mentioned in the entry of the creature itself:
Behir:
"Grab (Ex) A behir's grab attack works against creatures of any size category. It can constrict the same round it establishes a hold. On any round thereafter that it maintains its hold, the behir can choose to rake the grappled target or swallow it whole."
Darkmantle:
"Grab (Ex) A darkmantle can use its grab attack against a foe of any size."
...and that is all (previously, in 3.5, Salamanders could use their Improved Grab ability against creatures up to one size larger than them, but this is no more the case in Pathfinder). Chokers have no special rules on their Grapple ability.
Just my 2c.
Yes, they CAN grapple, but they CAN'T use the grab ability.
I have not been able to find an example of a dispensation on the grab rule. But I expect one would leave no room for doubt. To me the description under the chocker does not seem to allow the use of the free grapple benefit against small and larger enemies.In the Bestiary there are only two creatures that have a 'special' Grab ability, and this is mentioned in the entry of the creature itself:
Behir:
"Grab (Ex) A behir's grab attack works against creatures of any size category. It can constrict the same round it establishes a hold. On any round thereafter that it maintains its hold, the behir can choose to rake the grappled target or swallow it whole."Darkmantle:
"Grab (Ex) A darkmantle can use its grab attack against a foe of any size."...and that is all (previously, in 3.5, Salamanders could use their Improved Grab ability against creatures up to one size larger than them, but this is no more the case in Pathfinder). Chokers have no special rules on their Grapple ability.
Just my 2c.
Thanks. When exceptions are made they are clearly very well pointed out.
I'm not sure if I sound like I'm trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to give people a sense of what I want to do and see if it's within the rules.
So, to refocus the thread, I'd like to go back to the grab ability and grappling. Grandfather, it seems that I've misunderstood what you've been saying.
Let me see if I have it straight now and correct anything I don't have right. One creature does the grapple check, the others aid (adding a +2 bonus as per the aid action). I was fine with that part.
Also, only the one who is in control of the grapple can do damage, and those who aid are not allowed to control the grapple. (this is why a creature with the constrict ability, who is aiding, cannot do its constrict damage.
Only the one in controle of the grapple can choose what grapple action to take.
That's how the rules work. You join the grapple, then aid, not otherwise.
That is all correct
So to clarify, all those who aid int he grapple, if they "join the grapple", do they gain the grappled condition?
Yes. Though they can abandomn the grapple as a free action.
Next, a single creature with the "constrict" ability can take a -20 to its CMB to hold an opponent with one appendage. It can then attempt to attack/grab/constrict another creature with its free appendage.
The -20 CMB grapple is gained through the grab ability, not the constrict ability.
With the grab ability it can initiate a second free action grapple if it hits with its second natural attack.If it maintains a grapple with one hand it can also start a new grapple with the other as a standard action.
However, maintaining a grapple is a standard action unless the creature has the greater grapple feat, which makes it difficult to effectively grapple two enemies at once without the constrict ability.
This would require the greater grapple feat since
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Thanks. When exceptions are made they are clearly very well pointed out.
Yes, they CAN grapple, but they CAN'T use the grab ability.
I have not been able to find an example of a dispensation on the grab rule. But I expect one would leave no room for doubt. To me the description under the chocker does not seem to allow the use of the free grapple benefit against small and larger enemies.In the Bestiary there are only two creatures that have a 'special' Grab ability, and this is mentioned in the entry of the creature itself:
Behir:
"Grab (Ex) A behir's grab attack works against creatures of any size category. It can constrict the same round it establishes a hold. On any round thereafter that it maintains its hold, the behir can choose to rake the grappled target or swallow it whole."Darkmantle:
"Grab (Ex) A darkmantle can use its grab attack against a foe of any size."...and that is all (previously, in 3.5, Salamanders could use their Improved Grab ability against creatures up to one size larger than them, but this is no more the case in Pathfinder). Chokers have no special rules on their Grapple ability.
Just my 2c.
If I remember correctly James mentioned on another thread that Chokers *should* be able to grab against foes of any size, and this is an omission that would be corrected in errata?
How does the constrict ability let you more effectively grapple 2 enemies?"Constrict (Ex) A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage)."
From this, it seems that you have to successfully grapple every round to do constrict damage. Or is that just for the initial grapple? Do they just take damage automatically every round while in the grappled condition?
Constrict allows you to deal damage on a successful grapple check.
Normally it is a standard action to maintain a grapple or a move action with the greater grapple feat.If a creature with the grab ability attacks twice and successfully grapple on the free action grapples (from grab) it can with the greater grapple maintain two grapples, but cannot take any further actions. However, if it also has constrict it will deal constriction damage on every successful grapple check to maintain the grapples. Thus even though it cannot do anythin but maintain the grapples it will slowly wear the enemies down with its constriction damage.
Lastly(and I'm pretty sure this is my last question), can you grapple an opponent who is aiding in another grapple, for instance in an effort to prevent them from aiding. It seems it would be a "no" since they are already in a grapple...
I wish to point you to the other grapple thread you pointed out. The fighter, the crab and the monk. Just as the monk can intervene on the fighters behalf against the crab I also think it is possible to grapple an assister.
Being in a grapple does not prevent you from being grappled.The rules say that only one grapple check is roll in any grapple, but persons already involved in a grapple can themselves be initiated a second grapple against. But any one creature can only be engaged in one grapple. If someone aiding in a grapple is successfully grappled against that person will abandomn the first grapple and be involved in the new grapple, unless it like the crab can continue its grapple with one extremity.
If I remember correctly James mentioned on another thread that Chokers *should* be able to grab against foes of any size, and this is an omission that would be corrected in errata?
That is interesting. Could you find the link for us?
That is interesting. Could you find the link for us?
If I remember correctly James mentioned on another thread that Chokers *should* be able to grab against foes of any size, and this is an omission that would be corrected in errata?
google is your friend: (jacobs choker site:paizo.com)
(Had to put the address in url tag because forum wanted put random space to url... weird)
google is your friend: (jacobs choker site:paizo.com)(Had to put the address in url tag because forum wanted put random space to url... weird)
Thanks. JJ should not write "probably should" it just makes his answer seem weak.
I for one am happy to hear the Choker will be revised for next printing.
Right. In that thread you also said that in subsequent rounds the fighter could not initiate a grapple against the crab. Why could the monk initiate a grapple against the crab before, but now the fighter cannot?I wish to point you to the other grapple thread you pointed out. The fighter, the crab and the monk. Just as the monk can intervene on the fighters behalf against the crab I also think it is possible to grapple an assister.
Being in a grapple does not prevent you from being grappled.
Because in a grapple with multiple opponents (i.e. the monk and fighter) only the initiator of the grapple is entitled to make an actual grapple check. The fighter would hvae to make an aid another roll to help the monk.
So do I have this right?
Initiative A, X, B, Y, C, Z
A casts a spell and does damage
X standard action, grapples A
B standard action, grapples X
Y full round action attacks A
C standard action, grapples X (giving B a +2 for aiding another)
Z standard action, grapples A (giving X a +2 for aiding another)
Bottom of the round synopsis:
A is grappled by X and Z (-4 dex, -2 AC, -2 attacks or CMB for non-grapple related stuff)
X is grappling A and grappled by B and C (-4 dex, -2 AC, -2 attacks or CMB for non-grapple related stuff)
B is grappling X (-4 dex, -2 AC, -2 attacks or CMB for non-grapple related stuff)
C is grappling X by aiding B (-4 dex, -2 AC, -2 attacks or CMB for non-grapple related stuff)
Z is grappling A by aiding X (-4 dex, -2 AC, -2 attacks or CMB for non-grapple related stuff)
Top of round 2:
A standard action to break the X’s and Z’s grapple (checks versus X’s CMD and fails)
X chooses to maintain the grapple on A (+5 circumstance, +2 from the aid other). Succeeds and damages A
B standard action, maintains grapple (+5 circumstance, +2 aid other). Succeeds and pins X
Y full round action, attacks A
C standard action, maintains grapple (aid other B).
Z attacks A
Bottom of the round synopsis
A is grappled by X and looking pretty hurt (-4 dex, -2 AC, -2 attacks or CMB for non-grapple related stuff)
X is grappling A and in pinned by B and C (-4 dex, -4 AC, -2 attacks or CMB for non-grapple related stuff)
B is grappled and is pinning X (-4 dex, -2 AC, -2 attacks or CMB for non-grapple related stuff)
C is grappled and is aiding B
Top of round 3
A casts a spell and fails the check *fizzle*
X looses the grapple on A since he can’t maintain it. Standard action Tries to break B’s pin. Fails
B standard action, maintains pin on X (+5 circumstance bonus, +2 aid other)
Y attacks A
C attacks Z
Z attacks A
Bottom of the round synopsis
A is hurting but free
X is pinned by C
C is grappled and is pinning X