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I know in the Buckler details it says you can wield a Bow or crossbow without penalty. but what does that mean?
Is it just ignoring the -1 to hit?
Can you use a Buckler and maintain the AC bonus when using a Bow/Crossbow?
If so how would this work (mechanicaly speaking?)
or is it penalized for using both hands as it says later on in the description? and therefore losing the AC bonus.
I know in the Buckler details it says you can wield a Bow or crossbow without penalty. but what does that mean?
Is it just ignoring the -1 to hit?
Can you use a Buckler and maintain the AC bonus when using a Bow/Crossbow?
If so how would this work (mechanicaly speaking?)
or is it penalized for using both hands as it says later on in the description? and therefore losing the AC bonus.
It does just what it says. No penalty for bows or crossbows.
The reason being you are not swinging around your bow or crossbow to try and hit things, so the extra weight does not matter. Also, because you are not swinging around your bow or crossbow, you are not moving the buckler "out of position" as it were.
I know in the Buckler details it says you can wield a Bow or crossbow without penalty. but what does that mean?
Is it just ignoring the -1 to hit?
Can you use a Buckler and maintain the AC bonus when using a Bow/Crossbow?
If so how would this work (mechanicaly speaking?)
or is it penalized for using both hands as it says later on in the description? and therefore losing the AC bonus.
I do believe RaW you do not get the bonus. There was a 3.5 feat, improved buckler defence that may, or may not of negated this (was up for debate, I personally think it should apply to both two handed and two weapon wielders, but thats just me).
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
[emphasis mine]
It could have been written a little clearer by stating that you take a penalty when you are using a melee weapon. However, I think its pretty clear you do not take a penalty while using those specific weapons.
Thanks for the responses, I was trying to get information on the technical side of things.
My DM houseruled that it would be impossible to wield a buckler properly to use while shooting a bow.
He always allows players to argue their point (thusly i am here :P )
It could have been written a little clearer by stating that you take a penalty when you are using a melee weapon. However, as you do not "swing" a bow or crossbow I think its pretty clear you do not take a penalty while using those specific weapons.
I have seen both arguments but to me "Use without Penalty" is refering to the -1 to attack rolls and not to the loss of the ac bonus.
If you hold your bow in the hand on the arm that does not have the buckler, "technically" you are not wielding a weapon in the buckler hand. I've never seen anything anywhere stating which hand you hold a bow in.
*Shrug*
With a crossbow, if its really an issue, if you need more defense and still need to attack you can fire a crossbow with one hand at a penalty.
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, but while you don't take the -1 to hit when using a bow and buckler you still lose the AC the buckler provides. This is changed from 3.5 rules where you got to keep the AC.
So when casting a spell or using any weapon in your off hand, including two-handed weapons (ie bows), you lose the bucklers AC for a round. As it does not matter which hand you use a bow in as its a two-handed weapon by the rules.
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, but while you don't take the -1 to hit when using a bow and buckler you still lose the AC the buckler provides. This is changed from 3.5 rules where you got to keep the AC.
So when casting a spell or using any weapon in your off hand, including two-handed weapons (ie bows), you lose the bucklers AC for a round. As it does not matter which hand you use a bow in as its a two-handed weapon by the rules.
That's my reading of the rules too. So this is basically just a "me too" post.
It is simple, if you are in the act of aiming/shooting your bow/crossbow, then the buckler is no more than arm decoration, but it is small enough that the presence of it strapped there does not interfere with your aim, so there is no minus to hit but no defense bonus from it either. However, if you are not currently aiming/shooting, then your arm is free to move around and give you the defensive bonus from the buckler.
It is simple, if you are in the act of aiming/shooting your bow/crossbow, then the buckler is no more than arm decoration, but it is small enough that the presence of it strapped there does not interfere with your aim, so there is no minus to hit but no defense bonus from it either. However, if you are not currently aiming/shooting, then your arm is free to move around and give you the defensive bonus from the buckler.
Its not that simple... if you do anything that does not give you the ac bonus... you are without that bonus till the start of your next turn.
Improved Buckler Defense from Complete Warrior changes that, it actually makes bucklers more useful.
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1) I know in the Buckler details it says you can wield a Bow or crossbow without penalty. but what does that mean?
2) Is it just ignoring the -1 to hit?
3) Can you use a Buckler and maintain the AC bonus when using a Bow/Crossbow?
4) or is it penalized for using both hands as it says later on in the description? and therefore losing the AC bonus.
1) Ask your DM, since it depends on his interpretation of RAW.
2) Yes you do ignore and iirc the 3.5 FAQ says this is the sole benefit.
3) No, but ask your DM as it is debated by some.
4) Yes, but ask your DM.
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I know in the Buckler details it says you can wield a Bow or crossbow without penalty. but what does that mean?
Is it just ignoring the -1 to hit?
Can you use a Buckler and maintain the AC bonus when using a Bow/Crossbow?
If so how would this work (mechanicaly speaking?)
or is it penalized for using both hands as it says later on in the description? and therefore losing the AC bonus.
All the comments regarding WoTC rules clarifications in earlier 3.5 splatbooks are funny. They aren't relevant. This is Pathfinder 1st edition.
You do not have the -1 to hit penalty if using a crossbow or bow.
However, if you are using a weapon that requires two hands to fire (check the description of the weapon in use), you would not have the AC bonus after firing.
If you take an action to reload that uses both hands, you do not get the AC bonus from the buckler that round.
The advantages here is that you can use quick draw to go from a bow to buckler and sword. You don't get to equip shields as a free action with quick draw so you would have to use either dual wielding or a two-hander.
If you can talk your GM into Improved buckler defense it is an instant win.
Hi i am having a conflict about this and I would love to have a game designer comment. I am aware that it was cleared up before, but I seem to have lost that thread, so If we can clear this up as "officially" as possible that would be awesome.
Buckler
"This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.
-I can use a bow or crossbow without ANY penalty. In all other shield descriptions, the act of carrying the shield gives you the AC bonus. So according to this I can have a Buckler strapped to my arm (thus receiving the bonus) while I use a crossbow with two hands at no penalty. That is what the first line says. Right?
You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons.
-The above applies to MELEE WEAPONS as Bows and Crossbows receive no penalty. Not the use of "off hand weapon" implying melee weapons as well.
In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn.
-This again refers to offhand weapon use which implies melee weapons as when you use a bow or crossbow with two hands there is no "off hand"
Please, please post an official response, preferably one that agrees with me So I can move past this.
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So, did no one think to look up the definition of "penalty"?
Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score.
So when it says "without penalty", it means "without a numerical value that is subtracted from a check or statistical score."
Gaining a -1 to hit is a penalty. Failing to receive a bonus is NOT a penalty. There it is, in black and white. Doesn't get any more official than that.
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Rule for melee. One hand weapon and buckler... attack and AC bonus as normal Fighting two weapon style with weapon in off hand. you get a -1 attack penalty on the off hand stacking with any other applicable penalties. You also lose the AC bonus unless you have the applicable feat.
I believe you're missing a period in there, given that its presence would change your statement from incorrect to correct. :P
All the comments regarding WoTC rules clarifications in earlier 3.5 splatbooks are funny. They aren't relevant. This is Pathfinder 1st edition.
Somebody always manages to bring this up.
If WOTC used Wording X, and Paizo decided to keep Wording X the same and not change it, then we should reasonably assume that Paizo intended the rule to stay the same in Pathfinder as it was in 3.5. This logically includes any clarifications by WOTC as to what Wording X was intended to mean.
If Paizo intended a different result, they would have changed Wording X. If they now want a different result, they will issue their own clarification/errata/FAQ.
If Paizo remains silent about the meaning of Wording X, we should assume Wording X means the same thing now as it has for the better part of a decade. Pretending like all of the excellent clarifications shouldn't apply, just because the edition changed, is silly.
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[ Pretending like all of the excellent clarifications shouldn't apply, just because the edition changed, is silly.
So then you would be ok with using 4e edition clarifications in a Pathfinder game or vice versa? Cause thats basically the same thing your saying.
Also, no, its not. Clarifications and anything other than RAW for previous editions dont matter for jack, and the only reason even the RAW matters is cause 3.5 and PF are so close.
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[ Pretending like all of the excellent clarifications shouldn't apply, just because the edition changed, is silly.So then you would be ok with using 4e edition clarifications in a Pathfinder game or vice versa? Cause thats basically the same thing your saying.
If you use the same qualifiers that you conveniently ignored from AXQ's post, then actually yes, that would work: AXQ only advocated using older clarifications if the actual rules text was EXACTLY the same in both versions. So find me a rule that's phrased exactly the same in both 4E and PF, and yeah, they're probably supposed to work the same way as each other.
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[ Pretending like all of the excellent clarifications shouldn't apply, just because the edition changed, is silly.So then you would be ok with using 4e edition clarifications in a Pathfinder game or vice versa? Cause thats basically the same thing your saying.
No, it's not. Read my explanation again.
Paizo took the 3.5 rules and changed them. In many placed, Paizo left the 3.5 rules exactly as written. Anywhere where Paizo did not change the rules, 3.5 clarifications also clarify the PF rules.
The opposite position would require you to assume that Paizo would use the same wording as a 3.5 rule, but expect the actual rule to be different.
How can you possibly justify this assumption?