I wouldnt mind the oaths and banner ability being expanded but I have a word of caution for such a class.
I too played in a long standing campaign where one of the PC's was a marshal. He was incredibly useful, the battlefield control fighter appreciated the trip aura to no end. I was often happy for the bonus to overcoming SR with my casters, but that was the problem, the martial needed other members of the party to have an impact. When he made attempts to actually directly impact an encounter, he fell flat. Sure he had armor, and a shield but he never had 'tankish' AC, in fact he had the second lowest in the party most of the time. He also didnt do much when he actually tried to hit things with his sword. He had what i like to call 5th party member disease. He was great to have around, but we still needed a fighter a rogue, a cleric and a caster to overcome most challenges. A class, especially one claiming to be a martial class should have a way to directly impact a fight through their own actions, or they will need other characters to do the actions for them.
The challenge feature on the other hand gives the cavalier some offense. That is neccessary in a martial character, and I do like your ideas for banner and oaths, I do not agree with toning down challenge, and definately not for dumping it all together. I would rather the banner and oaths improvement replace the mount, and let the cavalier ride a normal horse. I dont think it needs an 'enhanced' mount, just a mount.
I actually like the Challange ability. Where as a Fighter can fight a number of opponents and keep chugging along I like the idea of a party leader that can call out that big boss.
I don't think the idea of a Cavilier is suppose to mimic a Marshall or a Warlord from 4th Edition. They are a combat machine with a offence verses what I see the fighter being a defense guy.
Banners are, to me, a repersentation to what they believe in and becasue of individual belief it can be anything. A silver holy Symbol can last a cleric thier whole life. I would say the banner is the same.
More Oaths and Banners good. Challange seems fine so far
Having spent many, many hours playing marshals and dragon shamans, I (and others on these boards, I'm sure) have a fair amount of hands-on experience playing classes whose niche combines party buffing, battlefield control, and social interactions. Which, it turns out is very relevant to this playtest.
[G]enerally speaking, the cavalier is meant to be a melee character with a stronger focus on group boosting, battlefield control, and social interactions...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing(Above quote taken from this thread.)
Based on the above statement, I think the challenge mechanic really needs to be downplayed or dropped altogether. It doesn't buff the party as a whole, doesn't control the battlefield, and isn't a social interaction (since it doesn't require the cavalier to communicate anything, and doesn't require the target to even know or understand that a challenge has been issued).
Instead, the cavalier would much better fill his intended niche if more emphasis were placed upon his banner and oath abilities.
Banner
Based on my experience playing a marshal, I'd say that the banner ability could be improved by making it less dependent upon an actual physical standard. It should instead depend upon the cavalier inspiring his comrades through words and deeds (especially deeds).
As it stands, "banner" is very vague. What is a banner? How much does it cost? Does it need to be personalized? Does an ally need to be intelligent enough to understand its significance to gain the banner benefits? Does an ally need to come from a culture that assigns meaning to banners?
The marshal class, which also inspires allies, avoids the above problems by saying that a marshal's words were inspirational, and then laying out exactly what conditions must be met for an ally to gain...
The last thing i would want to see or have to sit at a table with is another marshal. I've barely skimmed the cavalier so can't really comment on that part. The marshal had too many situational modifiers that were always changing. They also stomped on a bards role as a buffer, but in what i perceived as a more irritating way.
From my LG experience it seemed like the most obnoxious people always chose to play one. Obviously this is subjective to my experience at LG tables.When i think of a cavalier I think Knight in armor, and with some sort of (flawed or otherwise) code of honor. I don't think of some guy nattering at everyone constantly about what they should be doing so that they get bonuses.
If you want a marshal then a bard having perform oratory gets close. If more perform specific bardic performances are in the new players guide it might be possible to get everything that was good about a marshal and then some without having to have a full class. Especially on that people almost always only dipped into to get the good stuff.
God I hope there isn't more banner. I completely love oaths, but the banner ability needs to be stripped from the class. It's not supposed to be stepping on the bard like that.
God I hope there isn't more banner. I completely love oaths, but the banner ability needs to be stripped from the class. It's not supposed to be stepping on the bard like that.
Quite the opposite: the cavalier was billed as being a martial, in-your-face bard.
I agree with the banner issues. The reliance on a physical object is cool in principle but not so practical in RPG mechanics.
I'd keep the same name, as the fluff behind the ability is well conceptualized as the personal standard of the knight (cavalier). But I'd allow the ability to work solely on what the banner stands for. Perhaps a physical banner could enhance the ability (in range? in amplitude?) in a mundane or magical way (i.e. magical banner conferring different benefits on top of the cavalier's banner ability).
'findel
God I hope there isn't more banner. I completely love oaths, but the banner ability needs to be stripped from the class. It's not supposed to be stepping on the bard like that.Quite the opposite: the cavalier was billed as being a martial, in-your-face bard.
That's just not true. They have stated numerous times that the new classes won't be stepping on the toes of the old classes. It's possible to have social combat abilities (like the cockatrice has) and not screw the bard over.
That's just not true.
Yes, actually, it is. We were told that the Cavalier would be less about mounted combat and more about being a single-target, in-your-face party buffer. Also, Banner hardly "screws over" Bards. Bards provide lots and lots and lots and lots of party buffs that the Cavalier doesn't; even Inspire Courage is dramatically better than Banner.
single-target
Yes.
God I hope there isn't more banner. I completely love oaths, but the banner ability needs to be stripped from the class. It's not supposed to be stepping on the bard like that.Quite the opposite: the cavalier was billed as being a martial, in-your-face bard.
Actually as it stands the Bard and Cavalier seem to be an evil compliment. Most
of the Bard buffs are now competence were as the Cavaliers are currently mostly Morale. Unless that gets changed the both classes are complementery. Even the banner ability itself can benifit by a Bard at hand with a Mending cantrip.
Step on the bard! Please step on the bard!
It is the least stepped on class!
C'mon folks, we need more options for that niche. We have 5 flavors of melee, who knows how many casters... and ONE morale buffer. And guess what, if you want one of those right now, you have to be all ponce-y and sing.
I think a dashing, mounted, melee capable, non-magic bard replacement is really compelling!
Step on the bard! Please step on the bard!
It is the least stepped on class!
C'mon folks, we need more options for that niche. We have 5 flavors of melee, who knows how many casters... and ONE morale buffer. And guess what, if you want one of those right now, you have to be all ponce-y and sing.
I think a dashing, mounted, melee capable, non-magic bard replacement is really compelling!
Haven't clerics done that enough? You forget, through all of 3.5 they could outbard the bard with a spell.
I'm thinking that maybe the challenge ability ought to work like bardic perfomance and rage, IE rounds per day.
I like the Oaths but, as descibed, they aren't very Oath-ish. 24 hours is kind of pathetic. Thogh an oath like domain, each oath functioning like a domain would be very acceptable.
Just my 2 copper
Batts
I had someone play a marshal for over a year in a game. I have to agree, he did come off more as a 5th player kind of character in combat. Out of combat, however, he shone very well. The player was the team leader for that year, and kept the team and the story on track. So it is very situational out of combat. In combat, everyone loved him, it was only him that got frustrated not being able to do damage (granted, he ended up with +3 Adamantine Halfplate, so he was usually around for the entire fight).
I would love (LOVE) for the cavalier to be more like the marshal, honestly, than what he is now. Right now he's sort of a sorry mismash of Knight, Marshal, and Paladin, but not good at any of the three jobs and a semi-hash at his specified niche. I'd love a combat-bard type who inspires his comrades but can still stand toe-to-toe with a BBEG. I don't think he needs to outdamage a paladin, or out-feat a fighter, or out-buff a bard. But I would like him to be about 2/3rds as good at buffing as a bard, about 2/3rds as good at going toe-to-toe as a fighter, and when mounted dish out about the same damage as a Paladin smiting a black dragon. I think he ought to be about 2/3rds as good at being a 'face' as a dashing/clever/CHA based rogue as well.
To me, that would be a balanced character that would fit a niche you just don't have. Hopefully the Cavalier will get that polishing it needs to fit the originally advertised concept. I can see the roots of such a class in what was put out, but it needs some polishing with a grinder to get the rough edges off. One of those is to get rid of the things that de-buff the opposition (where the Bard or Cleric shine). Then concentrate on things that either buff the party (and lots of options, I'd rather see the Cavalier get some tree builds, kind of like the ranger or monk or oracle (yucky name), picking and choosing what abilities to take at various levels. Both in the base, and in the different orders.
I had someone play a marshal for over a year in a game. I have to agree, he did come off more as a 5th player kind of character in combat. Out of combat, however, he shone very well. The player was the team leader for that year, and kept the team and the story on track. So it is very situational out of combat. In combat, everyone loved him, it was only him that got frustrated not being able to do damage (granted, he ended up with +3 Adamantine Halfplate, so he was usually around for the entire fight).
I would love (LOVE) for the cavalier to be more like the marshal, honestly, than what he is now. Right now he's sort of a sorry mismash of Knight, Marshal, and Paladin, but not good at any of the three jobs and a semi-hash at his specified niche. I'd love a combat-bard type who inspires his comrades but can still stand toe-to-toe with a BBEG. I don't think he needs to outdamage a paladin, or out-feat a fighter, or out-buff a bard. But I would like him to be about 2/3rds as good at buffing as a bard, about 2/3rds as good at going toe-to-toe as a fighter, and when mounted dish out about the same damage as a Paladin smiting a black dragon. I think he ought to be about 2/3rds as good at being a 'face' as a dashing/clever/CHA based rogue as well.
To me, that would be a balanced character that would fit a niche you just don't have. Hopefully the Cavalier will get that polishing it needs to fit the originally advertised concept. I can see the roots of such a class in what was put out, but it needs some polishing with a grinder to get the rough edges off. One of those is to get rid of the things that de-buff the opposition (where the Bard or Cleric shine). Then concentrate on things that either buff the party (and lots of options, I'd rather see the Cavalier get some tree builds, kind of like the ranger or monk or oracle (yucky name), picking and choosing what abilities to take at various levels. Both in the base, and in the different orders.
I think every character should be able to shine in combat. At least in my group, combat takes up too much time (im talking real life hours not in game time, we rarely do fight after fight). For a character to spend the whole combat just boosting everyone else, while useful isnt going to be a whole lot of fun. Perhaps its a matter of what you mean by 'going toe to toe'. To me that isnt just survivability, it means being able to dish out a fair amount of hurt yourself. I dont think they should be out damaging the paladin, but they shouldnt just be hitting with a longsword either.
I think every character should be able to shine in combat. At least in my group, combat takes up too much time (im talking real life hours not in game time, we rarely do fight after fight). For a character to spend the whole combat just boosting everyone else, while useful isnt going to be a whole lot of fun. Perhaps its a matter of what you mean by 'going toe to toe'. To me that isnt just survivability, it means being able to dish out a fair amount of hurt yourself. I dont think they should be out damaging the paladin, but they shouldnt just be hitting with a longsword either.
I agree, every character should be able to shine in combat, just not every combat. Notice I said 2/3rds as good at standing there and dishing out damage as a fighter. So, if a fighter dishes out 100 pts in a round, say, then I would like the cavalier to dish out about 65pts.
If a paladin is smiting a black dragon for 150pts per round, I'd like the cavalier on his horse with his lance doing a charge attack to deal out a good 125 to 150pts or so himself.
If a bard is giving everyone a +6 to hit, I'd like the cavalier to be giving everyone a +4 to damage.
And if they are in town, I want the cavalier to be sweeping the tavern wench off her feat while the fighter grumbles, the bard plays music and the paladin shakes his head and mutters about how sinful his pal is.
That help visualize?
I agree, every character should be able to shine in combat, just not every combat. Notice I said 2/3rds as good at standing there and dishing out damage as a fighter. So, if a fighter dishes out 100 pts in a round, say, then I would like the cavalier to dish out about 65pts.If a paladin is smiting a black dragon for 150pts per round, I'd like the cavalier on his horse with his lance doing a charge attack to deal out a good 125 to 150pts or so himself.
If a bard is giving everyone a +6 to hit, I'd like the cavalier to be giving everyone a +4 to damage.
And if they are in town, I want the cavalier to be sweeping the tavern wench off her feat while the fighter grumbles, the bard plays music and the paladin shakes his head and mutters about how sinful his pal is.
That help visualize?
Yes it does, and if its achievable I would be very pleased with the class.
I would love (LOVE) for the cavalier to be more like the marshal, honestly, than what he is now. Right now he's sort of a sorry mismash of Knight, Marshal, and Paladin, but not good at any of the three jobs and a semi-hash at his specified niche.
I agree. While I like the cavalier, I don't really love the class. I would like to see more abilities geared at augmenting the party. Some of the order abilities work great for this, but I want more.
The marshal PC in my Age of Worms campaign was a party saver and the face man. The auras help in combat, but his main saving grace was being able to move the party around by either buffing their speed or granting immediate move actions. He controlled the battlefield by putting the PCs where they needed to be.
I really like the idea of the banner for the cavalier. Banners and flags were very important as symbols on battlefields of the past and this mechanic could easily reflect that. What I'd like to see is banners that all cavaliers would receive and then specific banners that each order could use to enhance the focus of the order. Also, each banner should have a penalty associated with it if that banner falls on the field representing the morale penalty it can inflict on allies.
General banners would include things like:
Banner of War: (Uses the cavalier's heraldry on a field of red) All allies within viewing distance of the banner get a +1 morale bonus to all attack rolls while the banner is visible. If the banner falls allies within viewing distance take a -2 morale penalty to attack rolls.
Banner of Peace: (Field of white) A number of allies equal to the cavalier's level receive a +2 morale bonus to diplomacy checks. No penalty for a fallen banner.
Banner of Protection: (Field of Blue) All allies within viewing distance receive a +1 morale bonus to Armor Class while this banner is visible. If the banner falls allies, receive a -2 penalty to Armor Class.
Banner of Determination: (Field of Orange) All allies within viewing distance receive a +1 morale bonus to Constitution checks made for strenuous activity such as forced marches. A fallen banner invokes an immediate check or all allies receive the exhausted status.
Explicit Order Banners:
Order of the Cockatrice: Morale bonus to movement speed of any ally in visible range by 5 ft. Increases other Order of the Cockatrice members within visual range movement speed by 10 ft.
Order of the Dragon: (Banner of Glory) The Order of the Dragon banner only applies to the Cavalier that displays it, applying a +2 morale bonus to any Combat Maneuver that the cavalier attempts while under its influence. This flashy nature of this banner draws the eye and attracts the derision of many, giving a -2 penalty to both stealth and diplomacy checks.
etc. The abilities granted to each order could easily be worked in with the banners as well. May not be quite what's being sought after, but I thought it would work well and be linked to actual history.
I really like that, riatin. Seconded!
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I'm with Epic Meepo on this idea. If the role of the Cavalier is to be a melee character with a stronger focus on group boosting, battlefield control, and social interactions. as Jason Bulmahn has stated then more effort needs to be put on the banner and oaths.
But lets focus on the Less Challenge part first. to boost the other abilities significantly I feel the challenge part needs slightly tuned down and the disadvantage it carries reduced. simply increase the d6 progression by 1 level (+1d6 every 4 instead of every 3) and drop flanked with a standard -2 to AC and reflex saves.
On to banners; The concept works but its in dire need of expansion has Epic Meepo has already brought up. For me a banner is simply a method of displaying ones coat of arms. that coat of arms is what provides the boost, not the banner itself. so be it on a flag pole or etched into the cavaliers shield as long as its displayed for people to recognise then the benefit should apply. This is where I think the banner could improve as the cavalier levels and its actually an idea I have already applied to the knight class when i tried to convert it to Pathfinder. I used the Badge of Office ability granted by the Knights-errant of Silverymoon Prestige class from one of the forgotten realms books. heres what I came up with.
Badge of Office: Knight-errant’s must display his patron’s badge of office at all times. This badge is a figurehead for the knight-errant’s patronage and loyalty to his code. While displaying the badge of office a knight-errant gains a +2 morale bonus to diplomacy checks. In addition, beginning at 5th level, while displaying his badge in combat he gains a +1 bonus to AC while he has at least 1 point of knight’s challenge reserve (see Knight’s challenge below) This bonus increases to +2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th level and to +4 at 20th level.
Common Badges include brightly colored tabards, cloaks or armor and shields displaying crests. Should a Knight-errant lose his Badge of Office he must obtain a new one as soon as possible. If a knight fails to display his badge of office (generally through use of a disguise or if he has lost his badge) during an encounter his Knights Challenge reserve points are set to 0. No one respects a false knight.
Now to convert this you simply have to replace the patron with a cavaliers order and drop the knights challenge reserve points replacing that with a failed or broken oath. Adding these to the existing banner ability.
Oaths: I couldnt agree more on the oaths summary epic meepo emphasised and I think the banner is the easiest way for a DM to book-keep its use. While your displaying your banner you can use your oaths. if you lose/hide your banner you cannot use your oaths. I tihnk the marshall angle of auras are also a good way to go. constant auras have been successful in MANY incantations from tabletop games (*cough*4th Ed*cough*) to computer games (diablo II) to MMOs (World of Warcraft). Anything that reduces the counting down or rounds is a good thing in my book.
I would love (LOVE) for the cavalier to be more like the marshal, honestly, than what he is now.
+1
Just don't go too far in the direction of the Marshal. The Cavalier needs to be able to handle himself well even aside from his party-friendly abilities. The Marshal (and to a lesser extent its similarly-roled cousin the Dragon Shaman) suffered the problem of never being able to do anything for itself, which makes for a very poor party member in a typical 4 person group.
I'm all for adding to the team boosting aspect of this class!
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Oaths seem like a bit of a PITA to me, because they have to be tracked.
Challenges icked me out at first, but now I think they're a pretty cool element of the class. Single-minded focus on one opponent is actually a pretty cool contextual damage booster, and the disadvantage not just balances, it actually makes sense.
I'm neutral on banners.
Making the class better would be a mistake, I think. I think that some wariness in melee classes is required to avoid the Fighter getting stiffed out of relevance.
I'd like to make a suggestion on Banner.
Change it's name to Cheveron (olde spelling of Chevron).
I know a chevron is a V-shaped mark used in heraldry, but it at least does have connotations of symbology, rather than just a flag. A cavalier's cheveron could be painted on his shield, on a banner hanging from his lance, painted on his armor, on his shoulder, over his heart, etc. It would be the combination of his personal arms, his order's arms, and even his god's symbol (if he worships one). Each would be both unique and uniform (his order's symbol combined with his own).
He would, when using a Cheveron ability (Banner) draw attention to it, by waving his shield around, thumping his chest (if it's there), waving his lance and showing his flag, etc, and calling out to his allies to encourage them.
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I'd like to make a suggestion on Banner.
Change it's name to Cheveron (olde spelling of Chevron).
I know a chevron is a V-shaped mark used in heraldry, but it at least does have connotations of symbology, rather than just a flag. A cavalier's cheveron could be painted on his shield, on a banner hanging from his lance, painted on his armor, on his shoulder, over his heart, etc. It would be the combination of his personal arms, his order's arms, and even his god's symbol (if he worships one). Each would be both unique and uniform (his order's symbol combined with his own).
He would, when using a Cheveron ability (Banner) draw attention to it, by waving his shield around, thumping his chest (if it's there), waving his lance and showing his flag, etc, and calling out to his allies to encourage them.
I like 'Banner', but 'Chevron' would feel... weird? I'm not a native English (or French) speaker, and neither am I an expert on heraldry, so I personally prefer more plain, straightforward terminology. Anyway, that's just my opinion...
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I like 'Banner', but 'Chevron' would feel... weird? I'm not a native English (or French) speaker, and neither am I an expert on heraldry, so I personally prefer more plain, straightforward terminology. Anyway, that's just my opinion...I'd like to make a suggestion on Banner.
Change it's name to Cheveron (olde spelling of Chevron).
I know a chevron is a V-shaped mark used in heraldry, but it at least does have connotations of symbology, rather than just a flag. A cavalier's cheveron could be painted on his shield, on a banner hanging from his lance, painted on his armor, on his shoulder, over his heart, etc. It would be the combination of his personal arms, his order's arms, and even his god's symbol (if he worships one). Each would be both unique and uniform (his order's symbol combined with his own).
He would, when using a Cheveron ability (Banner) draw attention to it, by waving his shield around, thumping his chest (if it's there), waving his lance and showing his flag, etc, and calling out to his allies to encourage them.
Cheveron is a good analogy of what MDT is trying to portray - cheverons have been used in military rankings for years (along with stars) but a more general name is trying to free up the way a cavalier would display his "Banner" - and for me it should either be a crest or a badge. a Crest would be more tied into a specific order so I think "Badge" is a better replacement for "Banner"
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I like 'Banner', but 'Chevron' would feel... weird? I'm not a native English (or French) speaker, and neither am I an expert on heraldry, so I personally prefer more plain, straightforward terminology. Anyway, that's just my opinion...Cheveron is a good analogy of what MDT is trying to portray - cheverons have been used in military rankings for years (along with stars) but a more general name is trying to free up the way a cavalier would display his "Banner" - and for me it should either be a crest or a badge. a Crest would be more tied into a specific order so I think "Badge" is a better replacement for "Banner"
Hmmm, 'badge' reminds me instantly of police officers, so I don't think it would work well in this context. I'm not a native speaker, so I only thought of chev(e)ron in what it means in heraldry; now that you mentioned the connection to the military ranks, I like it even less. These is just my opinion, but I personally like the 'banner' above all other suggestions so far.
I agree, "banner" is best. When you start to look at heraldry, you discover that a crest design is called a "charge". The lsst thing we need is to start using heraldic terminology. Replacing banner with charge, makes the confusion even worse.
I say, stick with banner, its best.
GP
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A badge is a device or accoutrement which is presented or displayed to indicate some feat of service, a special accomplishment, a symbol of authority granted by taking an oath (e.g., police and fire), a sign of legitimate employment or student status, or as a simple means of identification. They are also used in advertising, publicity, and for branding purposes.
Emphasis mine.
I think Badge actually fits very well given the classes connection with oaths and orders and the idea of displaying that symbol.
"Badges! We don't need no stinking badges!"
(Unless you want to hear that movie quote at least once per session, every session in which a cavalier appears, I'd recommend not calling anything a badge.)
Coat of arms sounds like the best suggestion so far.
I would personally like to see a Order of the Shadows. A secretive order of cavaliers, that come off a little as roguish knights.
More banners would be fine, the can replace some of the mounted combat stuff it would be far less situational.
I really like that, riatin. Seconded!
I am making a cavalier for a game I'll be playing this weekend, and have been reading the forums for tips, pitfalls and ideas. I have come cross other good ones, but I loved this idea. I think it fits right in line with the flare of the cavalier and offers something to those groups without a bard (which is 80% of the groups I have ever played in. Anyway just wanted to add my vote to an idea similar to this one . . . you know in case the developers are watching.
I really like the idea of the banner for the cavalier. Banners and flags were very important as symbols on battlefields of the past and this mechanic could easily reflect that. What I'd like to see is banners that all cavaliers would receive and then specific banners that each order could use to enhance the focus of the order. Also, each banner should have a penalty associated with it if that banner falls on the field representing the morale penalty it can inflict on allies.
General banners would include things like:
Banner of War: (Uses the cavalier's heraldry on a field of red) All allies within viewing distance of the banner get a +1 morale bonus to all attack rolls while the banner is visible. If the banner falls allies within viewing distance take a -2 morale penalty to attack rolls.
Banner of Peace: (Field of white) A number of allies equal to the cavalier's level receive a +2 morale bonus to diplomacy checks. No penalty for a fallen banner.
Banner of Protection: (Field of Blue) All allies within viewing distance receive a +1 morale bonus to Armor Class while this banner is visible. If the banner falls allies, receive a -2 penalty to Armor Class.
Banner of Determination: (Field of Orange) All allies within viewing distance receive a +1 morale bonus to Constitution checks made for strenuous activity such as forced marches. A fallen banner invokes an immediate check or all allies receive the exhausted status.
Explicit Order Banners:
Order of the Cockatrice: Morale bonus to movement speed of any ally in visible range by 5 ft. Increases other Order of the Cockatrice members within visual range movement speed by 10 ft.
Order of the Dragon: (Banner of Glory) The Order of the Dragon banner only applies to the Cavalier that displays it, applying a +2 morale bonus to any Combat Maneuver that the cavalier attempts while under its influence. This flashy nature of this banner draws the eye and attracts the derision of many, giving a -2 penalty to both stealth and diplomacy checks.
etc. The...
replied to the wrong post . . .
**AlQahir hangs his head sheepishly**
Oh and lest my previous posts be confused for tacit agreement with the overall theme I would add more banner, get rid of oaths, and keep challenge just as it is. This keeps the cavalier as a great single target melee character while giving moderate buffs to the rest of the party.
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Coat of arms sounds like the best suggestion so far.
I would personally like to see a Order of the Shadows. A secretive order of cavaliers, that come off a little as roguish knights.
More banners would be fine, the can replace some of the mounted combat stuff it would be far less situational.
Seconded on Both.
I would like to see more Orders in general running a wider gamut of concepts, but as much as I like the idea, I dunno how far we want to stray from the Orders as really vague notions, the basest of ideas. The current versions can be RP adapted very easily. Almost any concept you come up with can fit in one of those already available.
Six of one, half dozen of the other, I guess. If it stays I'm happy with the flexibility, if it changes I'll slobber over the new tasty crunchiness.