Level 20 rogue sneak attack question

[Shar Tahl]

Trying to get the sneak attack rules as they are straight in my head. From the way it reads, you can apply the sneak attack damage on any attack where the target is denied dexterity bonus. Is this how it works? It seems quite powerful.

Lets say a level 20 rogue the following:

A strength of 16 and 20 intelligence
Crippling Strike Advanced rogue talent
Bleeding Strike Talent
The entire two weapon fighting feat tree
Improved critical with Kukri's,
Several scrolls or a ring of Greater Invisibility
two +5 Kukri of Speed and Flaming Burst

From the way it looks, he would have 8 attacks (4 with each hand) that dealt 1d4+3(str)+10d6(sneak attack)+1d6(fire) and either 2 Strength Damage(talent) or 10 points of bleed

So assuming every attack hit, the total damage would be:
32-56 weapon, 8-48 fire, 80-480 plus 16 strength of 80 bleed.

criticals on 15's or higher would add 8-14 weapon +1d10 fire)

That totals to 120-584 without crits, 129-608 with all criticals + 80 bleed or 16 strength damage.

Plus he would have a DC 25 fort save for death from the Master Strike power.

Every attack would be a sneak attack unless the opponent can see invis or is immune to crits.

I have put way too much thought into this. LOL

[Zurai]

Yes, that's how it works. However, a Fighter with the same stats, feats, and gear will still do more damage.

[DM_Blake]

Be wary, many DMs believe the line under weapon of Speed that says "This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects" mans that you cannot get the benefit of two weapons of speed at the same time - you can only use one of them to get an extra attack.

I disagree. I think using two weapons of speed lets each weapon get the extra attack, and the bit about not being cumulative with similar effects doesn't apply to the other weapon of speed since that is not what "cumulative" means - each weapon is only getting one extra attack, so there is nothing "cumulative" about it.

But we had a thread around here where it seemed most of the posters on the thread didn't see it my way. Most were willing to limit two weapons of speed to only one single extra attack (you pick which weapon).

So make sure your DM is on board with using two weapons of speed. If not, switch one of those to something that does more damage instead.

[Countmein]

DM_Blake wrote:

But we had a thread around here where it seemed most of the posters on the thread didn't see it my way. Most were willing to limit two weapons of speed to only one single extra attack (you pick which weapon).

Blake, I didn't see that thread, but I would rule that you get two attacks from two speed weapons. If your willing to spend the cash then you should get the benefit. I don't think it's imbalanced at all...

[DM_Blake]

Countmein wrote:

DM_Blake wrote:

But we had a thread around here where it seemed most of the posters on the thread didn't see it my way. Most were willing to limit two weapons of speed to only one single extra attack (you pick which weapon).

Blake, I didn't see that thread, but I would rule that you get two attacks from two speed weapons. If your willing to spend the cash then you should get the benefit. I don't think it's imbalanced at all...

My thoughts exactly, but I'm sure I was in the minority on that other thread.

[Christopher Van Horn]

Also note the bleed doesn't stack with itself. so no matter how many times you hit you only get 10 bleed. You could stack the bleeding critical feat though, which does stack with itself and other bleed effects.

[James Risner]

Shar Tahl wrote:

two +5 Kukri of Speed and Flaming Burst

Kind of pointless having two, since Speed won't stack with Haste or other Speed weapons.

Other than that error, sure.

[Shar Tahl]

PRD Quote:
Speed: When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

The wording here does not say explicitly that it doesn't work with more than one speed weapon. It states you get one extra attack with it. I would say this would have to be a GM call. I would allow both to work in any of the games I am running. The cumulative is pointing to it giving more attacks on top of the 1 extra for that weapon(it)

[Maezer]

Shar Tahl wrote:

The wording here does not say explicitly that it doesn't work with more than one speed weapon. It states you get one extra attack with it. I would say this would have to be a GM call. I would allow both to work in any of the games I am running. The cumulative is pointing to it giving more attacks on top of the 1 extra for that weapon(it)

Saying the effect granted from the 'speed' weapon ability is not a similar effect to the 'speed' weapon ability is a bit far fetched. The effect is an extra attack with a weapon at you full BAB plus situational modifiers. I very much doubt you'd get it passed in an RAW game.

In a home game. Given the situation you describe (20th level character with two weapons with +10 bonus each). I could probably convinced to say it works as a house rule. I'd probably rule as a special rule to the items themselves rather than an effect of the speed ability. The character is investing an very large amount of resources to take two weapons from +7 to +10 for this effect. If a character wanted to do with with a pair of +1 kukri of speed I would be far less likely to allow it.

As for the rest of your statement. The bleed damage doesn't stack with itself. The target will bleed 10 every round regardless of the number of hits. The strength damage is applied with every hit though so you don't need to worry about applying one or the other you get both.

[James Risner]

Shar Tahl wrote:

PRD Quote: not cumulative with similar effects)

The wording here does not say explicitly that it doesn't work with more than one speed weapon.

There is no reasonable way to argue your side. A Weapon of Speed effect is similar to another Weapon of Speed effect in every meaning of the word "similar."

[The Grandfather]

PRPG p. 68 wrote:

Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can cause

living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak
attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional
point of damage each round for each die of the rogue’s
sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding
creatures take that amount of damage every round at the
start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped
by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that
heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability
does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any
damage reduction the creature might possess.

Bleeding does not stack!

[The Grandfather]

James Risner wrote:

Shar Tahl wrote:

PRD Quote: not cumulative with similar effects)

The wording here does not say explicitly that it doesn't work with more than one speed weapon.

There is no reasonable way to argue your side. A Weapon of Speed effect is similar to another Weapon of Speed effect in every meaning of the word "similar."

Agreed. Two speed weapons do not stack.

Speed does not stack with haste either.

[udalrich]

Shar Tahl wrote:

From the way it looks, he would have 8 attacks (4 with each hand) that dealt 1d4+3(str)+10d6(sneak attack)+1d6(fire) and either 2 Strength Damage(talent) or 10 points of bleed

So assuming every attack hit, the total damage would be:
32-56 weapon, 8-48 fire, 80-480 plus 16 strength of 80 bleed.

criticals on 15's or higher would add 8-14 weapon +1d10 fire)

As has been mentioned, two weapons of speed probably don't stack. Ask your GM to be sure. Neither does bleed.

The offhand attacks only get half strength damage, but that's a pretty minor point.

One big assumption is that every attack hits. Using just BAB, the attacks are at +15/+15/+10/+5 and +15/+10/+5. (I've assumed speed doesn't stack. It's simple to add back in if it does.) A same level fighter with the same equipment would have attacks (BAB only) of +20/+20/+15/+10/+5 and +20/+15/+10/+5. The rogue's best attacks are at -5 to the fighter, and two of the attacks are at -15. On those attacks, he's probably missing with rolls that threaten a critical. The fighter will also probably have better non-BAB bonuses to hit, between the Weapon Focus tree (+4 max vs +1 max for a Rogue), Weapon Training (+4 vs +0) and generally more feats to use. If the fighter needs a 2 to hit, the rogue's first attack could easily require a 14 or better and iterative attacks could easily require a natural 20.

At this level, it's also pretty common for monsters to be able to defeat invisibility. OTOH, flanking is still probably a valid tactic against most opponents. Fortification and concealment can also negate the sneak attack.

A high level rogue can be dangerous, but so can any 20th level character.