I was looking to make my Druid the type that can shape-shift very fast and very often.
An example of combat would include him shifting to a tiger or lion to pounce an enemy, only to shift into a dire gorilla the next round to throw the body at a group of other enemies.
Say I get slammed by an ogre's hit next which sends me flying.I could then shift to either a bird to try to catch myself and fly back to attack, or shift to a cat to land on my feet, only to shift again to charge my opponent as a rhino or an elephant.
I know i just described a large number of shifts in a short time, but i would rather be focused on the shifting of balance, weight distribution and forms of attack rather than 9th level spell progression.
Is this something that can be done under the pathfinder rules as they are? or is this something i need to go back to 3.5 and adapt to pathfinder?
Is this a prestige class? or merely something i can manage within the Druid boundaries themselves?
By the way, my DM is mostly running out of the Pathfinder core book, the DMG and the Beastiary.
P.S. Is this a bit too thought provoking for your standard druid?Should delve into monk level? (I'd rather not multiclass into anything else.)
That's not the way the druid works under pathfinder (or under 3.5 either). It would have to be a custom class. In fact Pathfinder made the druid much less capable in melee so you might want to really look at how effective he will be before diving in.
Multi classing druid is generally a bad idea.
Not familiar with a way to get changes as a swift action.
3.5 - Combining War Shaper PC (Complete Warrior), 5th level Multi-form with Fast Wild Shape (complete Divine) gets you close, but changing is still a move action. Not something that would save you from a short distance fall/throw as described.
Arcane version - You're describing kind of a Quickened Polymorph with quickened mid-spell changes in form. Still likely limited by move/standard action.
Very powerful idea, and the PF druid has been toned down deliberately due to overpowering aspects of polymorph/shape change.
I wouldn't allow it, but maybe your GM will.
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It isn't PFRPG or even OGL, but your DM might let you use the Shapeshift alternate druid class feature from PHB2. Basically lets you wild shape at will as a free action. The drawback is that mechanically, your forms are limited, i.e., doesn't matter if you change into a wolf, a panther, or a lion, the stats are all the same. Over the course of your advancement you get around 5 different choices including melee forms, flyers, plants, and elementals, iirc.
It isn't PFRPG or even OGL, but your DM might let you use the Shapeshift alternate druid class feature from PHB2. Basically lets you wild shape at will as a free action. The drawback is that mechanically, your forms are limited, i.e., doesn't matter if you change into a wolf, a panther, or a lion, the stats are all the same. Over the course of your advancement you get around 5 different choices including melee forms, flyers, plants, and elementals, iirc.
Forgot that one! good option.
I was looking to make my Druid the type that can shape-shift very fast and very often.
An example of combat would include him shifting to a tiger or lion to pounce an enemy, only to shift into a dire gorilla the next round to throw the body at a group of other enemies.
Say I get slammed by an ogre's hit next which sends me flying.I could then shift to either a bird to try to catch myself and fly back to attack, or shift to a cat to land on my feet, only to shift again to charge my opponent as a rhino or an elephant.
I know i just described a large number of shifts in a short time, but i would rather be focused on the shifting of balance, weight distribution and forms of attack rather than 9th level spell progression.
Is this something that can be done under the pathfinder rules as they are? or is this something i need to go back to 3.5 and adapt to pathfinder?
Is this a prestige class? or merely something i can manage within the Druid boundaries themselves?
By the way, my DM is mostly running out of the Pathfinder core book, the DMG and the Beastiary.P.S. Is this a bit too thought provoking for your standard druid?Should delve into monk level? (I'd rather not multiclass into anything else.)
Level 17 druids get shapechange :) you can change shape every round as a free action
Round one form of the dragon, claw claw bite wing wing tail, round two allies come and you're surrounded, free action air elemental, whirlwind, run away taking them with you, drop them off a cliff as a free action :)
Not familiar with a way to get changes as a swift action.
Complete Champion has the feat Swift Wild Shape, which allows wild shape as a swift action. It requires Dex 13 and Fast Wild Shape, which is from Complete Divine and allows Wild Shape as a move action. Both feats require the ability to wild shape in order to take, so the soonest you could get Swift Wild Shape is level 7.
However, you're gonna run out of wild shapes per day pretty fast if you do that kind of thing. I'd look into converting the Nature's Warrior and War Shaper classes from Complete Warrior; both deal with shapeshifting for combat purposes without using up additional wild shapes per day.
Complete Champion has the feat Swift Wild Shape, which allows wild shape as a swift action. It requires Dex 13 and Fast Wild Shape, which is from Complete Divine and allows Wild Shape as a move action. Both feats require the ability to wild shape in order to take, so the soonest you could get Swift Wild Shape is level 7.However, you're gonna run out of wild shapes per day pretty fast if you do that kind of thing. (...)
The Quintessential Druid, from Mongoose, has a feat "Sustain Wild Shape", allowing you (=OP) to keep your current shape while shaping into another (without spending a WS use, that is). It takes a full-round action, though, and they didn't explain very well how it could be used to change shapes multiple times.
It has already been said, but the best way to achieve what you are looking for (change shape several times) is the Multimorph ability from Warshaper (Complete Warrior) level 5. With Swift and Fast Wild Shape feats, too.
Go ahead if 5 character levels and 2 feats isn't too expensive for you. You should also get enough WS uses to last 24h/24 before trying this, because warshaper doesn't give any.
Typically, that would mean Druid 8 (especially since you have access to Huge shapes), but not necessarily: there's a feat and a magic item giving you more uses per day, and a level of Master of Many Forms (Complete Adventurer) gives you more WS uses, Speech (!), as well as interesting shapes (for Humanoids, I'd use Alter Self). Also to be noted: MoMF level 3 gives the Fast Wild Shape ability.
You might miss on some druid spells and abilities, but to each his own (it should be noted that the other levels of warshaper still offer interesting abilities for a wildshaped druid: reach, fast healing, superior str/con).
All in all, you'll have to wait quite a bit to get to the level where you can actually play like you said (level 9 for Medium, 11 for Large, 13 for Huge, etc.)
It isn't PFRPG or even OGL, but your DM might let you use the Shapeshift alternate druid class feature from PHB2. Basically lets you wild shape at will as a free action. The drawback is that mechanically, your forms are limited, i.e., doesn't matter if you change into a wolf, a panther, or a lion, the stats are all the same. Over the course of your advancement you get around 5 different choices including melee forms, flyers, plants, and elementals, iirc.Forgot that one! good option.
It IS good (saw that +12 Str already?) but don't forget that Shapeshift ISN'T Wild Shape, meaning that all the WS feats don't work. Especially Natural Spell: NO casting while Shapeshifted. And NO items either. Wild Clasps etc. won't work either because you aren't using WS.
It might be a decent trade, but know what you are exchanging it for.
It isn't PFRPG or even OGL, but your DM might let you use the Shapeshift alternate druid class feature from PHB2. Basically lets you wild shape at will as a free action. The drawback is that mechanically, your forms are limited, i.e., doesn't matter if you change into a wolf, a panther, or a lion, the stats are all the same. Over the course of your advancement you get around 5 different choices including melee forms, flyers, plants, and elementals, iirc.Forgot that one! good option.It IS good (saw that +12 Str already?) but don't forget that Shapeshift ISN'T Wild Shape, meaning that all the WS feats don't work. Especially Natural Spell: NO casting while Shapeshifted. And NO items either. Wild Clasps etc. won't work either because you aren't using WS.
It might be a decent trade, but know what you are exchanging it for.
Thank you very much for these replies. This has been very helpful.
I am not so sure that i could use the Warshaper prestige class, but i will ask the DM.It is also exactly what i am looking for.
I know Acrobatics is something i'll need to pick up, any other feats/skills recommended?
Thank you very much for these replies. This has been very helpful.
I am not so sure that i could use the Warshaper prestige class, but i will ask the DM.It is also exactly what i am looking for.
I know Acrobatics is something i'll need to pick up, any other feats/skills recommended?
Depends on what your DM likes to throw at you, and what you want besides shapeshifting.
- being more deadly ? take a look at combat feat chains- interacting ? put some points in Bluff/Diplomacy/etc.
- having a horde of creatures assisting ? Leadership
- summoning monsters ? look at the Summoners' feats
- healing ? There's a couple feats good for it
- more generally, casting spells ? Natural Spell and Spellcraft
- crafting magic items ? Spellcraft and Craft XYZ
If your DM approves, there are interesting Skill Tricks in the Complete Scoundrel, too.
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Thank you very much for these replies. This has been very helpful.
I am not so sure that i could use the Warshaper prestige class, but i will ask the DM.It is also exactly what i am looking for.
I know Acrobatics is something i'll need to pick up, any other feats/skills recommended?
Improved Natural Attack. Weapon Focus: claw or bite. Imp Crit: claw or bite. Multiattack is super useful once you get the improved melee form that gives you claw/claw/bite. In fact, Multiattack is the real winner. Flyby Attack is helpful in the flying form-like Spring Attack, but with way fewer prerequisites. Natural Spell is unnecessary since you can pop back into your normal form as a free action if you need to cast a spell (and it doesn't work anyways).
One thing I ran into DMing a Shapeshift druid is that you keep your type, so even if you're already turned into a Huge tree or something you can still receive enlarge person. Those kind of shenanigans are potentially game-breaking, just be advised.
Also remember that while you can shapeshift as a free action, you can only take free actions when it's your turn. So on your turn, you could change into a bird and fly over to an enemy, change into a tiger, attack, and then change into a tree in order to improve your AC when it's no longer your turn, but you can't shapeshift while it's not your turn.
EDIT: Fly skill is important once you get the flying form.
Thank you very much for these replies. This has been very helpful.
I am not so sure that i could use the Warshaper prestige class, but i will ask the DM.It is also exactly what i am looking for.
I know Acrobatics is something i'll need to pick up, any other feats/skills recommended?
Improved Natural Attack. Weapon Focus: claw or bite. Imp Crit: claw or bite. Multiattack is super useful once you get the improved melee form that gives you claw/claw/bite. In fact, Multiattack is the real winner. Flyby Attack is helpful in the flying form-like Spring Attack, but with way fewer prerequisites. Natural Spell is unnecessary since you can pop back into your normal form as a free action if you need to cast a spell (and it doesn't work anyways).
One thing I ran into DMing a Shapeshift druid is that you keep your type, so even if you're already turned into a Huge tree or something you can still receive enlarge person. Those kind of shenanigans are potentially game-breaking, just be advised.
Also remember that while you can shapeshift as a free action, you can only take free actions when it's your turn. So on your turn, you could change into a bird and fly over to an enemy, change into a tiger, attack, and then change into a tree in order to improve your AC when it's no longer your turn, you can't shapeshift while it's not your turn.
It's convoluted, but I don't think you can be enlarged while wildshaped into a huge creature, because wildshape is increasing your size, and enlarge person is increasing your size, and size bonuses don't stack. Also multi-attack is not near as good now because most combat forms you will take it's all primary attacks. Awesome in 3.5, Wasted feat in 3.P
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It's convoluted, but I don't think you can be enlarged while wildshaped into a huge creature, because wildshape is increasing your size, and enlarge person is increasing your size, and size bonuses don't stack. Also multi-attack is not near as good now because most combat forms you will take it's all primary attacks. Awesome in 3.5, Wasted feat in 3.P
My above advice is if he's using the Shapeshift alternate class feature in PHB2, not regular PFRPG wild shape.
It's convoluted, but I don't think you can be enlarged while wildshaped into a huge creature, because wildshape is increasing your size, and enlarge person is increasing your size, and size bonuses don't stack.It's much simpler than that. The polymorph spell school negates size increases from other spells in PF.
Simple enough :)
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Not sure if it was mentioned ( skimmed through the posts ), but, if your DM let's you use 3.5, Warshaper( Complete Warrior? ) + Shifter( from Complete Adventurer? ) You get a character who can stay shifted for the entire day and shift as many times as they want into a very broad range of shapes. You also get the extraordinary abilities of what you wild shape into.
That's not the way the druid works under pathfinder (or under 3.5 either). It would have to be a custom class. In fact Pathfinder made the druid much less capable in melee so you might want to really look at how effective he will be before diving in.
It's almost an understatement. These days, druid shapeshifting is useful only for mobility and stealth options, the class has fallen far in melee capability in shapeshift, and technically as far as mobility options go, Druids can now change into fish that drown, as it's not specified that water breathing is an option for Beast Shape.
Actually if you wild shape into a fish you can breath water. Just like if you wild shape into a bird you can breath air. Shapeshifting is not just for stealth and mobility. That is your opinion, it's been shown several times to be effective. If you don't like them play something else.
Well this is in pertains to Pathfinder Network Play, only pathfinder core is allowed.
Yes and pathfinder core druids can do just fine in melee. 5 primary attacks at full bab might have something to do with it. They just can't dump their STR down to 7, be a halfling and lose another 2 and expect to do good in melee anymore.
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That's not the way the druid works under pathfinder (or under 3.5 either). It would have to be a custom class. In fact Pathfinder made the druid much less capable in melee so you might want to really look at how effective he will be before diving in.
It's almost an understatement. These days, druid shapeshifting is useful only for mobility and stealth options, the class has fallen far in melee capability in shapeshift, and technically as far as mobility options go, Druids can now change into fish that drown, as it's not specified that water breathing is an option for Beast Shape.
That's because you haven't read the Polymorph subschool text, which specifies you gain waterbreathing capabilities when shifting into a creature that swims. People not reading these days... grumble, grumble, grumble... :P
"Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing."
That's because you haven't read the Polymorph subschool text, which specifies you gain waterbreathing capabilities when shifting into a creature that swims. People not reading these days... grumble, grumble, grumble... :PWhich means if you polymorph into a dolphin, crocodile, or polar bear(!!!) you can breathe water.
Only if your GM is foolish
That's because you haven't read the Polymorph subschool text, which specifies you gain waterbreathing capabilities when shifting into a creature that swims. People not reading these days... grumble, grumble, grumble... :PWhich means if you polymorph into a dolphin, crocodile, or polar bear(!!!) you can breathe water.
Breathe water, hold breath for a long time, to-MAY-to, to-MAH-to.
(Actually, polar bears can't hold their breath for very long, according to the Internets).
which IMHO is not a bad thing. They want to be combat folks they need to aim for it, they want to be caster supreme they need to aim for that, they want to be ok at both but god at none...well ya make your choices
which IMHO is not a bad thing. They want to be combat folks they need to aim for it, they want to be caster supreme they need to aim for that, they want to be ok at both but god at none...well ya make your choices
Right -- the fact that a good melee druid is a poor-to-mediocre caster is a feature, not a bug.
Can we maybe leave the whole "druids can/can't melee" discussion out of this thread? That wasn't the OPs question.
How exactly do you get 5 attacks at full BAB? Fact is to be an effective combatant, a druid is going to have to seriously crimp thier casting score to bump up strength and dex and even with Beast Shape 3, the highest they're allowed short of a 9th level spell, they're going to be less effective than they once were.Well this is in pertains to Pathfinder Network Play, only pathfinder core is allowed.Yes and pathfinder core druids can do just fine in melee. 5 primary attacks at full bab might have something to do with it. They just can't dump their STR down to 7, be a halfling and lose another 2 and expect to do good in melee anymore.
bite claw claw rake rake
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That's because you haven't read the Polymorph subschool text, which specifies you gain waterbreathing capabilities when shifting into a creature that swims. People not reading these days... grumble, grumble, grumble... :PWhich means if you polymorph into a dolphin, crocodile, or polar bear(!!!) you can breathe water.
swim speed or burrow speed? if yes, then yes
swim speed or burrow speed? if yes, then yesThat's because you haven't read the Polymorph subschool text, which specifies you gain waterbreathing capabilities when shifting into a creature that swims. People not reading these days... grumble, grumble, grumble... :PWhich means if you polymorph into a dolphin, crocodile, or polar bear(!!!) you can breathe water.
Again, not if your DM uses common sense and Rule 0.
Actually, my DM is kinda being cool about most of this.
He has recognised that Pathfinder severely screwed Druid's Wild Shape ability and that a rhino with 14 strength makes no sense so he has houseruled that druids can wild shape according to the 3.5 rules.
It also helps that i don't plan to go nuts with the belief that my little gnome has seen every animal,or even any dinosaurs at all.
Thank you again.
Only if your GM is foolishExplain that, as it doesn't sound foolish at all to allow you to breath when swimming with a swim speed. Especially since it is RAW.
it's in how long. I would allow a polar bear to hold it's breath longer then normal..it's foolish to say well by raw he can do it for 5 days or longer...he just never comes up. The rule is meant to be simple but it is also meant to be used with a bit of thought. It's much simper to say waterbreathing when it means can hold breath for a hour or 3 , when folks start abusing it by staying down 12 or 15 hours when they really should not be able to. The DM needs to make a call.