Perhaps I am crazy, since I would have thought I'd see other threads asking this before, but where the heck are the level adjustments for the playable races in the Pathfinder Bestiary? I have poured over the stat blocks for multiple monsters, like the Aasimar, Tiefling, and Tengu, and cannot find anything resembling a level adjustment.
Is it supposed to be up to the DM's discretion now?
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Primarily it is DM discretion now, yes. There is a section in the back of the book(its like page 312, or something under 'monsters as pc races, don't have the book in front of me to tell you the exact page) that gives general guidelines, but the LA system was never really well balanced and it is stated that the creatures are designed to be monsters and not PCs, so the DM will always need to decide for themselves whether something will fit.
A basic summary though is that you now use CR instead of HD + LA to determine about how many class levels a creature would take up, with the gap between the monsterous character and other characters diminishing until they have gained half of it back over time.
Creative Director
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Perhaps I am crazy, since I would have thought I'd see other threads asking this before, but where the heck are the level adjustments for the playable races in the Pathfinder Bestiary? I have poured over the stat blocks for multiple monsters, like the Aasimar, Tiefling, and Tengu, and cannot find anything resembling a level adjustment.
Is it supposed to be up to the DM's discretion now?
It is indeed up to the GM's discretion. Chapter 12 of the Pathfinder Core RPG lists the races that should work fine without worries (effectively what 3.5 called ECL +0 races) and several that would be close (what 3.5 called ECL +1 or +2 races).
But for the most part, yeah... each GM should decide for him/herself what races he wants players to be able to play.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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where the heck are the level adjustments for the playable races in the Pathfinder Bestiary?
Is it supposed to be up to the DM's discretion now?
p 313
and Yes
This stances (kill off LA) and the kill off Clerics with Full Plate are the two things I really hate about 3.p rules. Everything else I pretty much love. Nothing can be perfect I guess.
Level adjustments always confused me. Just another benefit of point buy systems in my opinion. Players have more options.
L.A. = C.R.
ECL = CR?
I know its an old thread, but instead of starting my own, I will ask a question here.
What about races like the Ghaele? (sp?)
An outsider so it has 6+ skill points, d10 hit die, all good saves, AND a fighters base attack bonus.
10/cold iron and evil; Immune electricity, petrification; Resist cold 10, fire 10; SR 25
At will—
aid,
charm monster (DC 17),
continual flame,
cure light wounds,
dancing lights,
detect thoughts (DC 15),
disguise self, dispel magic,
hold monster (DC 18),
greater invisibility (self only),
major image (DC 16),
greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only)
+14 Str +2 Dex +10 Con + 6 Int +9 Wis +6 Cha
ANd Casts spells as a 13th level cleric
ALL FOR A CR = 13 with 13 Hit die
What type of level adjustment should be here?
EDIT: Smurf
What type of level adjustment should be here?
Level Adjustment Infinity, AKA: Do not let your players play one of these.
What about races like the Ghaele? (sp?)
In some cases, I'd say that you can play monstrous races by treating each HD (or each point of CR, if that is higher than the CR) as a level, and that you can't play it at all unless the party's level is high enough to support it.
I'd also say that the ability scores the critter has are the ones you get, i.e you don't get to slap buy your scores as usual and then slap the racial adjustments on top of that. At best, you get a severely reduced point buy system, or maybe you don't get any points at all.
Oh and money: You'd get a lot less than your fellow party members.
But in this case, that's not going to work at all. Putting a ghaele into a party of 13th-level characters means you now have one hero and a bunch of sidekicks (at best).
I mean, even with just using the ability scores the thing has and not getting anything much in the items department, a normal character would have to start with elite purchase (25 points) and blow pretty much all his money on ability boosters to get those attributes (though admittedly not all are that useful here)
And that's only the beginning!
Let's say the character plays a clerical role. CL 13 in cleric magic helps. Sure, you don't get channel energy, and no domains, but instead, you get:
Better HD, better BAB (and you can add divine power on top of that!) some immunities and resistances to energies, a DR that is actually quite useful, +12 natural armour, enormous mobility and a bunch of constant or at will spell-like abilities that are just awesome.
That's several levels worth of great right there, even if you don't allow that character full access to wealth or treat the attribute mods as racial bonuses to add to a set of stats like every other character.
If you do allow full wealth for its level and/or the usual attribute generation method, this thing should be beyond what is possible in the core game (since it only goes up to level 20).
Its tough because those abilities at will would drive many DM's nuts, but at the same time, it would escape...but could be defeated by many 17th level wizards. So level is tough for me. At what level would a party have to be to allow it and would it seem overpowered?
I DM'ed for a silver dragon once that was hiding in human form and wouldn't turn back. It actually seemed under powered due to losing a lot of its abilities in the polymorph rules.
Edit: Smurf
Think you could explain a bit to these people who think it's overpowered? (Including the point it's at and the abilities he's achieved and used so far)Yeah, he wants to play it as written. I've told him he's welcome to multiclass cleric if the stunted HD gets to be too much, but so far he's stuck to the progression.
Savage Species progression right? You including the LA-based 'empty levels' or doing something else there?
Yeah it would be neat to hear some specifics. I have a player who has always loved the celestial family they belong too and is interested, I just don't want to minimize the other players.
Smurf
I used the savage species progression for the trumpet archon and didn't have any problems with it, and didn't find myself mechanically better than any of the other characters (well... not anymore than I would have been anyways in a few cases -- but those are specific players that are normally at that point anyways).
As to the Ghaele I would be willing to allow someone to play one as is (they could change feats and skills/what not) when the rest of the party is level 13. I think the BAB helps make up for the lack of domains, channel energy, and armor while on the flipside the spell likes and what not help make up for the lack of bonus feats/special powers/ weapon training and what have you. Also remember that the Ghaele is going to be vulnerable to a lot of stuff that normal PCs don't have to worry about. The DCs on a lot of those at will abilities are rather low for level 13 and even though they can be used again and again in most cases this use is simply going to amount to wasted actions.
Points to consider for "rebalancing" the ghaele:
1. A monster is consider "at CR" with a lot less wealth than PCs normally have so it might be a good idea to limit their starting wealth to what a monster of their level should have as an encounter.
2. The stat adjustments for the ghaele might prompt simply saying "these are your stats."
I was under the impression that the actual "level adjustment" stat had been done away with because a players got up there in the levels, the benefits became less and less significant. I won't let my players play any race that has racial hit dice, and for the others that are a little more powerful than the norm, I've been having them start 1 or 2 levels below the rest of the party, and that includes starting with less experience as appropriate. They level up as normal for their level. That way, as the game progresses they start to catch up to the other PCs when the benefits of their race begin to become negligible
My suggestion is to just use the slower XP progression scale as the scaling for the higher old LA races use the same as the Players for the +1s and the next slower for the LA +2s and up and if you are using the Fast XP chart use the Slow for the LA +5s and up
But In all It is the DMs call to even allow those races at all. even in my home brew I rarely allowed better then a LA +2 and only if it was regionally appropriate with most no standard being LA+0 at best
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Yeah it would be neat to hear some specifics. I have a player who has always loved the celestial family they belong too and is interested, I just don't want to minimize the other players.
On the higher end, his alternate form has let him maneuver around battlefields better than most, thanks to incorporeality and flight. This is mitigated some by the fact that his backstory is that of an undercover agent working to find out more about an evil cult in the area. So he can't let what he is be known.
The protective aura is one of the real showstoppers, with its ability to cancel out magical compulsions. Enchanters and creatures with mind-affecting abilities are pretty well shut down. The counter is area spells, since the party will bunch around him, leaving them open to fireballs and entangles and the like.
Something that may give some people trouble is the at-will cure light wounds. This pretty much reduces the use of cure wands to in combat, because he has infinite healing outside of it. Some people's playstyle may have trouble with it.
That's all I can think of for now. I'm curious to see how he will perform in the upper levels, when his HD hit really starts to show, and he can be more open with his abilities. Dungeons are going to be much easier since he'll be able to bypass any and everything he wants, but high level characters can do that anyway, just not as much. His lower saves and HP are going to make him fragile however.
One point I should mention is that this is a 3.5 campaign with some PF tweaks. The power gap may be even less in PF considering the differences in classes, with only the at-will cures, alternate form, and protective aura being at all a concern.
Thanks everyone. I appreciate the input.
smurf
The protective aura is one of the real showstoppers, with its ability to cancel out magical compulsions. Enchanters and creatures with mind-affecting abilities are pretty well shut down. The counter is area spells, since the party will bunch around him, leaving them open to fireballs and entangles and the like.
Well, probably not Fireball and Entangle, considering that the aura acts as a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. Or does the Savage Species version of the ghaele add that ability in later on?