Yes, but this one will definitively resolve all of the issues everyone has and lead to an era of ever lasting peace and happiness.
YAY!
and
IBTL!
AND new page!
Well damn, it was bound to happen eventually, and I realize it undermines my argument but I'm afraid I will be evoking Godwin's law.
You're right, it does. Comparing PS3 Fanboys hating the XBox 360 (a product), and Nazi's hating Jews (people) is simply so ludicrous, it is hard to take the rest of your point seriously.
There is a big difference between hating a game and hating the person who plays the game.
I can understand your point why you might be offended that others may not share your opinion, and your suggestion that by saying a game is stupid, you are inferring by extension those who play the game are stupid as well (though that is a big inference, that you are making - not them), but it is a huge stretch that suggesting their hate directed towards a roleplaying game is the same as hate for a person just because the roleplaying game is played by people.
I hate canned spaghetti, but I don't see why people who like it should feel I've targeted them by expressing my opinion on the slimy junk.
If someone bashes the 4.0 system and you disagree, by all means disagree, but don't claim you were the target just because you don't share their opinion.
If someone bashes people who play 4.0, then that is different, and you will have my full support. Not until then though.
Bah 4e V 3.5 you guys are up set because Bunnies and Burrows was the best RPG evar. It Shytes all over d20 from orbit....smurf
Like some of you, I pick'd up the 4e box set when it came out (PF wasn't out yet, so I had to get something to feed my addiction). But now that I'm done with it, I had a thought that I want'd to try out:
I just pick'd up the PF Bestiary today, and I had already put my PF book in the box the three core books in and thought "Man, it'd be nice to have something like this for PF". So I check it out, and sure enough, the Bestiary fits perfectly into the 4e box, allowing me to cart around my books more easily and laugh that my 4e purchase wasn't a complete waste.
This was pretty funny... until I found out you were a nazi. I hate nazis; so it isn't funny anymore.
Bah 4e V 3.5 you guys are up set because Bunnies and Burrows was the best RPG evar. It Shytes all over d20 from orbit....
Nah...Tunnels and Trolls. TAKE THAT YOU FIEND! is the greatest name for a spell...ever.
Whatever floats your boat, Frosty. ;)
Daigle, you are my hero of the week.
What about Monsters and Mazes? It was supposedly popular in Ancient Greece. Daedalus rocked a mean d20.
Did someone call?
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Well damn, it was bound to happen eventually, and I realize it undermines my argument but I'm afraid I will be evoking Godwin's law.
You're right, it does. Comparing PS3 Fanboys hating the XBox 360 (a product), and Nazi's hating Jews (people) is simply so ludicrous, it is hard to take the rest of your point seriously.
There is a big difference between hating a game and hating the person who plays the game.
I can understand your point why you might be offended that others may not share your opinion, and your suggestion that by saying a game is stupid, you are inferring by extension those who play the game are stupid as well (though that is a big inference, that you are making - not them), but it is a huge stretch that suggesting their hate directed towards a roleplaying game is the same as hate for a person just because the roleplaying game is played by people.
I hate canned spaghetti, but I don't see why people who like it should feel I've targeted them by expressing my opinion on the slimy junk.
If someone bashes the 4.0 system and you disagree, by all means disagree, but don't claim you were the target just because you don't share their opinion.
If someone bashes people who play 4.0, then that is different, and you will have my full support. Not until then though.
The thing that got me about that post was comparing game hating to ethnic cleansing. My grandparents had concentration camp tatoos! Somehow hating a gaming system doesn't compare! At least in my Jewish mind! Galnörag, you took offense to someone hating your game system. Okay, you have a right to feel offended if you want. However, do not EVER compare it to ethnic cleansing or you and I will have a serious discussion! Sorry about that folks but that just irked me too much to let it go!
this was a simple thread with a good joke that everyone could enjoy.
That's the problem, though. It wasn't a joke that everyone could enjoy.
The OP insinuated (in the thread title!) that 4e hasn't given us anything good beyond a slipcase that fits books for another game, as though "us" is indicative of the Paizo community.
Imagine if someone had said something like "The one thing the Democratic platform ever gave us was an excuse to draw funny-looking donkeys!" Certainly more significant in scope, but identical in principle - a set of ideas supported by a group of people denigrated by a different group of people (who don't support it) and made to look like a joke.
This thread could have easily started out with "Hey guys, I just found out that the Pathfinder books fit in other slipcases, like the 4e one!" and everything would have probably gone groovy (until the next guy decided to make a joke about slipcases being the only thing good that ever came of 4e). Instead, it was immediately incendiary.
Cheers to the Paizo guys for jumping on it and calling it unacceptable.
Here's a good rule of thumb: if you would find it offensive if someone replaced all the instances of "4e" in your post with "PFRPG", it's probably best not to write it.
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I hate canned spaghetti, but I don't see why people who like it should feel I've targeted them by expressing my opinion on the slimy junk.
How dare you insult that quick, cheap and easy to make can of heaven! I am so sick of hearing about how people hate canned spagetti, you must think that because I like I must be a moron or something and I won't tolerate you persecuting me, you darn Nazi-lovin', PS3 playing, hypocritical bastard! You targeted me when you insulted and ridiculed my most preferred canned item ever and insinuated that I am a drooling idiot for liking it! If you are gonna have an opinion you better make sure that I agree or I'll feel that I have to invoke a Godwin on your arse! Stop belittling me!!!
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this was a simple thread with a good joke that everyone could enjoy.That's the problem, though. It wasn't a joke that everyone could enjoy.
The OP insinuated (in the thread title!) that 4e hasn't given us anything good beyond a slipcase that fits books for another game, as though "us" is indicative of the Paizo community.
Imagine if someone had said something like "The one thing the Democratic platform ever gave us was an excuse to draw funny-looking donkeys!" Certainly more significant in scope, but identical in principle - a set of ideas supported by a group of people denigrated by a different group of people (who don't support it) and made to look like a joke.
This thread could have easily started out with "Hey guys, I just found out that the Pathfinder books fit in other slipcases, like the 4e one!" and everything would have probably gone groovy (until the next guy decided to make a joke about slipcases being the only thing good that ever came of 4e). Instead, it was immediately incendiary.
Cheers to the Paizo guys for jumping on it and calling it unacceptable.
Here's a good rule of thumb: if you would find it offensive if someone replaced all the instances of "4e" in your post with "PFRPG", it's probably best not to write it.
So what? Boo-hoo. Someone felt like expressing an opinion. I hear all the time that Obama is a POS from some people and that he is The Man from others. Should I feel offended and confront everyone that disagrees with my view? No. You put up with it and let it slide most of the time because it isn't a personal insult. It is an opinion. Opinions are like __________, everyone has one.
"The best thing that came out of the Saw movies was the cases that I used to put my Halloween movies into." "GODWINNNED!!!!! HATERSSSSS!!!!! NAZIIIS!!!!"
That is not the proper response to a person on a Halloween movie thread.
If you look hard enough you can find a reason to be offended everywhere you go. Start growing a skin and join the rest of the world.
I like Metal music. I've heard people say that Metal is sh*t and that hip-hop is better. Do I fight everyone else with a different opinion and try to shove my opinion down their throat? No. Especially not on a Metal thread in a Metal forum.
The edition wars will stop when the crying stops and some people grow a bit of skin. It doesn't mean that people won't have different opinions and occasionally express them.
Pssh.. guess I'm the only one that likes the girl on the cover.
You people are all too caught up in the edition wars. Let the people that like 4e have their edition, their 3 new core books a year, and 5e in 3 more years. With no gaming table/online client in sight. :P
I like most Fantasy Art pin-up girls. If the girl on the cover of the 4e books falls into that category, I like her too. If she falls anywhere between a 1990s* Marvel Comics drawing of Jean Grey and the females in the artwork of Larry Elmore, she's probably right up my alley. (I honestly don't remember what the cover looks like since it's not a purchase I elected to make.) How does she compare with Seoni?
*I specified 1990s because I love how she was drawn in the 90s X-Men books and sometimes Marvel takes an artsy approach in their current comics that doesn't always agree with me. (Sometimes their women are super-hot, and other times they're not even particularly feminine in their contour. Depends on the artist and art-style.)
That's the problem, though. It wasn't a joke that everyone could enjoy.
What? You mean like those jokes that were part of WotC's marketing campaign for 4e? Picking on complex rules like players of previous editions were morons or poking fun at "trolling" critics? I thought it was silly to get offended by jokes like that.
So what? Boo-hoo. Someone felt like expressing an opinion. I hear all the time that Obama is a POS from some people and that he is The Man from others. Should I feel offended and confront everyone that disagrees with my view? No. You put up with it and let it slide most of the time because it isn't a personal insult. It is an opinion. Opinions are like __________, everyone has one.
And yet there are certain opinions which probably should be kept to oneself - especially negative, non-constructive opinions.
Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's a good idea to share it.
What? You mean like those jokes that were part of WotC's marketing campaign for 4e? Picking on complex rules like players of previous editions were morons or poking fun at "trolling" critics? I thought it was silly to get offended by jokes like that.
That's the problem, though. It wasn't a joke that everyone could enjoy.
So two wrongs make a right?
Not that my blood boils over this particular joke, but having been part of the Sega minorities back in the 8-16bit console wars, I understand Scott all too well (at least within the Paizo forums, 4E is the "discriminated minority"), there's a point where you get tired of ignoring all the mud slinged in your direction.
Stop laughing! Can't you see this isn't funny? Now I will hit enter to express my outrage and thereby bump.
I like Metal music. I've heard people say that Metal is sh*t and that hip-hop is better. Do I fight everyone else with a different opinion and try to shove my opinion down their throat? No. Especially not on a Metal thread in a Metal forum.
Metal edition forever!
\m/ -_- \m/
The thing that got me about that post was comparing game hating to ethnic cleansing. My grandparents had concentration camp tatoos! Somehow hating a gaming system doesn't compare! At least in my Jewish mind! Galnörag, you took offense to someone hating your game system. Okay, you have a right to feel offended if you want. However, do not EVER compare it to ethnic cleansing or you and I will have a serious discussion! Sorry about that folks but that just irked me too much to let it go!
I just want to reassure you that in spite of my nationality (German), I am not a Nazi and I do not hate you and those who share your ethnic background.
I want to go on and say that, in fact, my great-grandparents (who, unlike any of my younger ancestors weren't too young to do anything about the Nazi Regime) were no Nazi-sympathisers, which got them and their children into trouble (my grandfather spend his youth in various orphanages, hardly ever seeing any of his siblings, and one of his brothers was among those mentally handicapped people the Nazis gassed because their "life was not worth living".
Wow this thread is going places that are uncomfortable.
KaeYoss mate nobody here is judging you based on your nationality. Nor does anybody I know associate everyday Germans from now with German supporters of those people from then.
Please can people think before using that word as a casual form of put down. It carries as much weight as the other N word for a lot of people.
Lets be nice, and take a step back this is a game we are arguing about.
Hi,
Just thought I will add as my first post was regarding going 4E or PF. We can safely say that are designed to allow a person to role-play in a fantasy medieval world with magic.
The thing we want to know is how do the systems compare with matching the flavour of old type AD&D? What does PF do well and 4E does not. Let's discuss these things as I have tried both and I do think the new 4E do stray more into a World of Warcraft thingy than PF. My goal is to have a system that allows me to play D&D and as an oldster who has only just left AD&D 2nd Ed. I wanted a system that allowed me to continue with my Campaign but with the same flavour. Otherwise you would play something like Runequest!
So, would it not be best to discuss these points?! Also, as 40 years odd gamer we have gone through these kind of arguments before. They are vital discussions to ensure we get what we want. The game companies want to give us a product that we go out and buy all their publications. It is in their interest to give us what we want!!!
Let us tell them. I think this 'conflict' between PF and WoTC is great! Lots of good adventures that I can use from both sides, etc.
I personally think that after examining the 4E publishing sequence is that it seems you have o buy somewhat more than the customary 3 core books to 'get back' to what I would call core D&D which is a bit mercenary. So, I don't like that and PF seem to be more 'honest' but it is based of 3(.5)version of D&D so it was constrained(?)/supported(?) by a previous version of D&D.
Were PF faithful. Is it worth are meaningful questions to debate! So, what do you guys think?
What is NOT good is people bringing in terms such as NAZI's and Holocaust. This is a game and anyone trying to insult and cause pain and discomfort have no place here. I am an English chap married to a German so I think when people start trying to pile on guilt/accusations/whatever with a trowel it is bad news. All of you surely conclude this is not an appropriate discussion and those who meant to hurt people with such words should be a ashamed of themselves. The Holocaust was an event that is too big to be discussed in a games forum. If you want to discuss it somewhere else then go somewhere else...
Games, if I remember correctly, are meant to be havin' fun but hey, what do i know?
So let us examine the differences that 4E has given us... I like the extra races and some classes are OK but a bit samey... What I do see is that a lot of re-badging has been done such as certain spells and rituals can be compared. I do like the attempt to allow low level parties to have more abilities though...
stay safe and keep calm..
Steve
the Sega minorities
Hahaha!
Hahahahahahaha!
*taunts Dogbert with the hurtful truth about crappy Sonic games*
:P
And yet there are certain opinions which probably should be kept to oneself - especially negative, non-constructive opinions.
Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's a good idea to share it.
Hmmm? Could it be that the opinion that others should be expected to withhold their own opinions is an example of a negative, non-constructive opinion?
KaeYoss mate nobody here is judging you based on your nationality. Nor does anybody I know associate everyday Germans from now with German supporters of those people from then.
He was calling me names and then he brought up Nazis.
If people can be all offended over someone not liking their game, I reserve the right to be offended when someone attacks my person and my whole country.
I hate canned spaghetti, but I don't see why people who like it should feel I've targeted them by expressing my opinion on the slimy junk.
How dare you insult that quick, cheap and easy to make can of heaven! I am so sick of hearing about how people hate canned spagetti, you must think that because I like I must be a moron or something and I won't tolerate you persecuting me, you darn Nazi-lovin', PS3 playing, hypocritical bastard! You targeted me when you insulted and ridiculed my most preferred canned item ever and insinuated that I am a drooling idiot for liking it! If you are gonna have an opinion you better make sure that I agree or I'll feel that I have to invoke a Godwin on your arse! Stop belittling me!!!
I knew this post was coming when I wrote that ;)
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So what? Boo-hoo. Someone felt like expressing an opinion. I hear all the time that Obama is a POS from some people and that he is The Man from others. Should I feel offended and confront everyone that disagrees with my view? No. You put up with it and let it slide most of the time because it isn't a personal insult. It is an opinion. Opinions are like __________, everyone has one.And yet there are certain opinions which probably should be kept to oneself - especially negative, non-constructive opinions.
Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's a good idea to share it.
Sorry mate, I didn't realize that your negative, non-constructive opinions (IMO)were the only ones allowed here. All hail Scott Betts, He who transcends us mere mortals with his unassailable opinions that are never negative or non-constructive.....in his opinion at least.
Imagine if someone had said something like "The one thing the Democratic platform ever gave us was an excuse to draw funny-looking donkeys!" Certainly more significant in scope, but identical in principle - a set of ideas supported by a group of people denigrated by a different group of people (who don't support it) and made to look like a joke.
That is EXACTLY the kind of post I would expect if I was hanging around a Republican forum.
Despite the fact I would disagree, I would never insinuate they had no right to express their opinions on a political platform (Um...especially on a forum specifically created for the purpose of discussing politics), nor would I suggest they shouldn't because I might disagree, and therefore be "offended".
The "right not to be offended" (a fictitous right) gets taken way to far above the right to free speech too much of the time. Let's get over this idea that we must censor those who might have different opinions.
I agree with having a CoC that prohibits direct attacks on individuals or groups of people, that restricts inappropriate language, and that prohibits harrasment, but if the CoC were to include expressing opinions on games, objects, or types of food as prohibited behavior because someone who disagrees might be offended...really, what kind of commuity do you have left.
If the target of the jokes becomes democrats in general or any human being, then it becomes abusive, and that must be dealt with.
However, if we can't freely talk about our dislike of 4.0 here, because someone might disagree and therefore be offended, we are in trouble.
And Fake Healer: Canned spaghetti looks like someone threw up real spaghetti on my plate.
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And Fake Healer: Canned spaghetti looks like someone threw up real spaghetti on my plate.
You sir are a cad! :P
BTW, good post Treantmonk, glad you decided to come to the boards. You have a very thoughtful posting style and good game knowledge, you are gonna be a great addition to the community here.
And Fake Healer: Canned spaghetti looks like someone threw up real spaghetti on my plate.You sir are a cad! :P
BTW, good post Treantmonk, glad you decided to come to the boards. You have a very thoughtful posting style and good game knowledge, you are gonna be a great addition to the community here.
*Blushes* Thanks!
Hi,
Just thought I will add as my first post was regarding going 4E or PF. We can safely say that are designed to allow a person to role-play in a fantasy medieval world with magic.
The thing we want to know is how do the systems compare with matching the flavour of old type AD&D? What does PF do well and 4E does not. Let's discuss these things as I have tried both and I do think the new 4E do stray more into a World of Warcraft thingy than PF. My goal is to have a system that allows me to play D&D and as an oldster who has only just left AD&D 2nd Ed. I wanted a system that allowed me to continue with my Campaign but with the same flavour. Otherwise you would play something like Runequest!
So, would it not be best to discuss these points?! Also, as 40 years odd gamer we have gone through these kind of arguments before. They are vital discussions to ensure we get what we want. The game companies want to give us a product that we go out and buy all their publications. It is in their interest to give us what we want!!!
Let us tell them. I think this 'conflict' between PF and WoTC is great! Lots of good adventures that I can use from both sides, etc.
I personally think that after examining the 4E publishing sequence is that it seems you have o buy somewhat more than the customary 3 core books to 'get back' to what I would call core D&D which is a bit mercenary. So, I don't like that and PF seem to be more 'honest' but it is based of 3(.5)version of D&D so it was constrained(?)/supported(?) by a previous version of D&D.
Were PF faithful. Is it worth are meaningful questions to debate! So, what do you guys think?
Do you really expect to get an honest assessment of PF on Paizo's own message boards? And no I don't mean an official squashing of opinions, but instead the natural avoidance of crapping all over your host's site and the natural desire to avoid the fan boys' flames.
Spam spam spam spam spamitty spam!
"Shut UP! ... Stupid vikings."
This post not meant to insult any actual vikings reading this thread.
Spam spam spam spam spamitty spam!
"Shut UP! ... Stupid vikings."
This post not meant to insult any actual vikings reading this thread.
Don't worry about that, worry about insulting people who like vikings, because apparently that's who you are really insulting.
We left vikings unslaughtered?
Begins sharpening horns.
Hmmm? Could it be that the opinion that others should be expected to withhold their own opinions is an example of a negative, non-constructive opinion?And yet there are certain opinions which probably should be kept to oneself - especially negative, non-constructive opinions.
Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's a good idea to share it.
Nope, really don't think it is.
So what? Boo-hoo. Someone felt like expressing an opinion. I hear all the time that Obama is a POS from some people and that he is The Man from others. Should I feel offended and confront everyone that disagrees with my view? No. You put up with it and let it slide most of the time because it isn't a personal insult. It is an opinion. Opinions are like __________, everyone has one.And yet there are certain opinions which probably should be kept to oneself - especially negative, non-constructive opinions.
Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's a good idea to share it.
Sorry mate, I didn't realize that your negative, non-constructive opinions (IMO)were the only ones allowed here. All hail Scott Betts, He who transcends us mere mortals with his unassailable opinions that are never negative or non-constructive.....in his opinion at least.
I'll be the first to admit that occasionally I slip up and decide it'd be more fun to pointlessly drag something that I don't like down. That doesn't make it the mature thing to do, though.
And I'd really appreciate it if you could find another way to communicate your disagreement that doesn't come across as sounding like a sarcastic jerk.
We left vikings unslaughtered?
Begins sharpening horns.
Can we raid this thread then?
