I understand that Restov and the Swordlords have to start backing away from the Players at some point. They've just received the letter to go investigate the Nomen Heights Varnhold Vanishing. How do i get them to stop running to Restov every 5 minutes?
The Swordlords should say something like "dudes...we're busy up here, you can't hang out here anymore? Otherwise them folks up north will realize some stuff we don't want them to."
Any suggestions? What have you done to remove this enticing city?
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Have Bad Things(TM) happen when they leave - maybe there's a revolt, or a monster incursion, adn their population starts calling them cowards. Add unrest. Bring back Grigori times a thousand. Have other factions in the Swordlords tell them off. Have the city full of Issian guards, and make it clear that civil war is about to break out. Have civil war break out and besiege Restov.
(Just brainstorming here, I haven't had to face this yet, but I think this is a likely problem to come up.)
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They go to Restov to talk to the mayor. They arrive to find the king waiting for them. He tells them that the Swordlords no longer can maintain a friendly relationship and he wants the 50 BP they gave the PCs back. From this point forward, the PCs will be ignored by both the king and the mayor.
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Yar!
The whole reason the swordlords agreed to commission free agents (the PCs) to explore the greenbelt and set up their own kingdom there was to create an independent ally at their southern border without raising suspicion of active expansion in order to prevent civil war.
Secrecy during the initial phases of establishment is vital! They PC's are not yet established as their own kingdom, so to prevent civil war, they need to maintain some semblance of secrecy in these relations with the swordlords.
If the PC's are constantly going to Restov instead of their own fletchling kingdom, it's going to seem like they are direct representatives of Restov and their actions are the actions of the Swordlords. That kinda negates the whole purpose of the initial contract and will bring about civil war (lots of death, both military and innocent civilians).
I would have the swordlords be very firm with a message to them about this. They do not want this to happen (and I assume neither do you, as such an event could easily draw the PCs up north to fight in the civil war instead of dealing with the events of the greenbelt aka the Kingmaker Adventure Path).
If after a very stern warning the PCs continue to use Restov as their "go to" place for resupply or whatever, I would even go as far as to have the Swordlords publicly declare them saboteurs, trying to bring ruin to the northern kingdoms by implying direct Restovian aid in the expansion and colonization of the Stolen Lands, and that if they continue these actions, they will be judged as criminals / spies eliciting espionage.
And then give a quite aside "but we don't want to go to that extreme. We want to be your allies, but we need to ride out this storm first. Civil war is at our doorstep. You were part of our plan to prevent civil war, but you constantly coming here is risking causing it. Please. Stop. Let us worry about things up here, and we will trust you to worry about things down south. But we do NOT have time or the means to help you with the going-ons down south beyond what we are already doing, and trying to do incognito. Some tact, please."
... or something. They want to prevent civil war while making allies to their southern borders, after all. The PC's actions are putting them into a tough spot. After the above, I would also tell the PCs out of character that "seriously, if you keep this up, the swordlords will be forced to take action against your characters, and it could be a potential campaign ender. I don't want that, and I do have a backup plan to keep the campaign going should you draw their ire and get yourselves killed, but I'd rather not have to go to those lengths. But in the end, if that's what your characters would do, then please understand that the world will respond in kind, and there will be consequences."
This may sound cruel, but if the PCs do push them, or do not take their words seriously and continue, then the swordlords should and would take action against them. They have other expeditions in the Stolen lands after all, and it wouldn't be a stretch to give one of them a bit more aid (in secret) to take over the PC's fletchling kingdom and become the new independent ally to the south in the PC's place. The backup plan would then be to have the new group of PCs be one of the other expeditions that are now tasked with taking over the old PC's fletchling kingdom and take over where they left off.
Just some thoughts.
~P
Awesome ideas. I'm still a bit vague on the political stuff happening in Brevoy (haven't read or digested enough of later modules or other canon).
I'm really trying to get my players focused on the importance of holding down the Greenbelt and getting stronger there. But they are a bit fancypants and many are interested more in the political situations in Brevoy.
Maybe they'll just lose their city...oops.
Why are the PCs heading back to Restov? For Varnhold it is the nearest safe haven that offers the majority of services that the Fort cannot, and it is closer than the PCs kingdom. Are they going there just to restock, etc.? Or are they going there for a different reason?
They haven't made it to Varnhold yet.
They've been spending lots of time getting to know the leaders in Restov and the Swordlords and stopping in quite a bit to restock, get magic items that are unavailable in the wilds, spread their resident bard's songs, etc. Many of the PCs have decided to basically live in Restov during the first year of citybuilding...with monthly visits to have council meetings in order to fill the leadership roles to benefit citybuilding.I'm attempting to encourage them to spend more time considering their land...over their old land. It's difficult. I think it'll change through this whole Varnhold Vanashing thing.
Yeah, if a ruler only shows up one day a month, I'd declare those positions vacant and let the penalties pile up. You make the *rolls* once a month, but that doesn't mean you can be elsewhere the rest of the time. Who is doing all the work running the kingdom then? Why would someone accept the rule of someone who's never around?
On the other hand, if your players are interested in Brevoy's politics... well, it's a sandbox, so play in it! The Inner Sea World Guide and the KM player's guide has interesting stuff on Brevoy, enough to give you some cool ideas. If everyone wants to play politics and not worry about kingdom building, maybe the "kingdom in the background" rules are worth looking at as well.
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Why are the PCs heading back to Restov? For Varnhold it is the nearest safe haven that offers the majority of services that the Fort cannot, and it is closer than the PCs kingdom. Are they going there just to restock, etc.? Or are they going there for a different reason?They haven't made it to Varnhold yet.
They've been spending lots of time getting to know the leaders in Restov and the Swordlords and stopping in quite a bit to restock, get magic items that are unavailable in the wilds, spread their resident bard's songs, etc. Many of the PCs have decided to basically live in Restov during the first year of citybuilding...with monthly visits to have council meetings in order to fill the leadership roles to benefit citybuilding.I'm attempting to encourage them to spend more time considering their land...over their old land. It's difficult. I think it'll change through this whole Varnhold Vanashing thing.
Ahh. That makes some sense then. Chances are their "base" will shift over to their country once things get established. It sounds to me that they are making diplomatic ties with Restov, which of course falls into exactly what Restov wants. The early US somewhat did the same. Benjamin Franklin was sent over to France to curry favor and to establish those ties. It also sounds like the PCs are recruiting individuals to move to their country. Once their capital gets established chances are you will see them more over in their kingdom. Are you between Rivers (Book2) and Vanishing (Book 3)?
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Have to say this hasn't been a problem for me, but then my players have only gone to Restov once, and that was when I made them. They had to turn in the Stag Lord's head for the 5k gp reward. Of course, they started elsewhere in Rogarvia and the place they were from was taken over by an usurper, so perhaps this helped serve to keep them firmly in the Stolen Lands.
To echo what others have said, have the leader of the Swordlords take the PC ruler aside and tell him that the city is rife with Surtovan spies. Something like "It is not safe for our cause or our continued freedom for you and your group to be seen in Restov." Make it clear that if they do so, they risk losing their charter to Surtova, who could declare it illegal.
They should get the hint.
Have to say this hasn't been a problem for me, but then my players have only gone to Restov once, and that was when I made them. They had to turn in the Stag Lord's head for the 5k gp reward. Of course, they started elsewhere in Rogarvia and the place they were from was taken over by an usurper, so perhaps this helped serve to keep them firmly in the Stolen Lands.
To echo what others have said, have the leader of the Swordlords take the PC ruler aside and tell him that the city is rife with Surtovan spies. Something like "It is not safe for our cause or our continued freedom for you and your group to be seen in Restov." Make it clear that if they do so, they risk losing their charter to Surtova, who could declare it illegal.
They should get the hint.
I sent them a big hint last time they were all there as a party, where the Swordlords called an emergency meeting with them and said "dudes, you are way behind the other groups...we really need you to get going, mmkay?" and left it at that...they went home and built for a few months, and then got the letter asking for help investigating Varnhold from Jamandi Aldroi (which seems kinda lame after they just got scolded...to have them ask for help..but whatevs)
So, they decided to go to Restov on the way to investigate Varnhold. I think i'll have Jamandi stop by and have a "real talk" chat with them.
Thanks everyone!
Many of the PCs have decided to basically live in Restov during the first year of citybuilding...with monthly visits to have council meetings in order to fill the leadership roles to benefit citybuilding.
Whoaw. In that case, I'd also apply the penalties for a vacant position to their kingdom.
Never heard about part-time kingship...Have unrest keep rising, orders not being followed - would be a perfect scenario for Grigori, but you're likely past him.
Restocking is fine, but I'd say they should handle that via agents from their own nation or sending letters.
In my game, Jamandi will visit their capital in person.
Also, nothing stopping you from enlargening Nivakta's Crossing (which is settlement right on the border and closer than Restov, too, making more things/services available to the PCs.
Ruyan.
If Grigori isn't dead/imprisoned this would be a great time for him to show back up and start convincing the people of [insert PC's kingdom's name here] that their leaders just don't care about them, are too busy gallavanting about in Restov, etc.
If Grigori isn't dead/imprisoned this would be a great time for him to show back up and start convincing the people of [insert PC's kingdom's name here] that their leaders just don't care about them, are too busy gallavanting about in Restov, etc.
I'll definitely use Grigori. We spent a lot of time on the first book, so they are way too high level to do all of book 2 and then book 3, so i'm combining a bit to catch up.
One of the main issues i have is...how are the player characters supposed to do all of these extra storylines while having to stay in their capital city the whole time?? that part makes no sense to me, so i've set up the council meetings for one week per month that they're building.
I should mention that each player is playing two separate characters...and i've got quite a huge group that i'm running, with 6 players...so 12PC's plus cohorts and followers for a couple of them. Many of these second characters are not roleplayed too often, but will remain in the city to keep the leadership aspects running.
I think it'll work out well, i'm just really trying to give them the head's up that Restov and the Swordlords will not be able to support them much longer...and not quite as overtly as they have been.
There's a much simple solution to the problem. Restov stops doing favorw for free. They start asking for tribute or unfavorable trades, or troops, or magic items in return for their assistence. They start praising Baron Drelev for being independent.
Make it a less attractive choice plain and simple.
There's a much simple solution to the problem. Restov stops doing favorw for free. They start asking for tribute or unfavorable trades, or troops, or magic items in return for their assistence. They start praising Baron Drelev for being independent.
Make it a less attractive choice plain and simple.
sounds like a good option.
sometimes i'm too nice.
If the players are more interested in the politics surrounding Restov, perhaps you want to toss out parts of the adventure path, or cause some events to drastically change the game. It sounds like you will already have to do that in order to combine books 2 and 3. One thing I have learned is go with where your players want to go and use events to try to guide them in ways you want them to respond. If that means you need to toss out the adventure path, go for it.
Perhaps after annexing Varnhold they PCs become a large enough group to alter the near civil war that is breaking, and you can bring them into Restov politics instead of book 4.
Perhaps you could get rid of the Pitax angle from book 4 and make it an Issian plot to destroy the PCs who are becoming too much of a threat. Instead of the Tiger Lords being the random barbarians that were pissed off, perhaps Lord Drelev found the sword, won the challenge, and is now the leader of the Tiger Lords, leading an army against the PCs. He comes from Issian nobility IIRC, so he could ally with them to crush their enemies.
Give the players problems they can deal with, and make Restov unable to give actual aid.
+ 1 for Grigori also. My players hate him.
Hmmm, that seems weird that they want to stay in Restov. Do they not want to live in their Kingdom? They should be able to buy supplies and magic items there too. Do they realize they are autonomous? The only connection they really have to Restov is that Restov gave them a charter to explore and map the greenbelt (and clear out any bandits). And then once that was complete a charter to rule said lands as they (the PCs) see fit. Restov should be keeping them at arms length to avoid the Brevic Crown's attention.
** Spoilers **
What the PCs may not realize, is that Restov is anticipating a civil war with Brevoy proper (ie House Surtova) and they are underhandedly supporting a client nation to their south hoping they will have an ally when said war breaks out.
Which brings you smack into the BIG problem with The Kingmaker Path (IMO). And that is that the story for the path has nothing to do with Brevoy and it's civil problems (because everything makes it seem like it should). I really suggest you read (even if you skim) the rest of the books, because you as the DM have a fair amount of work to seed the actual plot into the story as much as possible, otherwise you will have A LOT of puzzled looks from the table when you reveal the Big Bad. My players are all excited to find out what happened to House Rogarvia, what is really up with Skywatch, and just what is Noleski actually up to. Guess what. I get to make all that up, because the Path is not about any of that stuff. Which is what is awesome about The Kingmaker Path. It gives you the room to do that (in fact starting with book 4 you almost have to...if the PCs only do Book encounters they will be under leveled for book 5).
With this path more than most, I cant stess enough that you should read all the books and plan your approach to Nyrissa as a plot. She does have threads throughout the books but you need to (carefully) make them mean something or else the tacked on plot will really seem tacked on. Of course you could ignore the plot from the path and do your own. But one of the reasons you are probably playing a Path in the first place is so that you don't need to make it all up (like me? I just don't have the time). Kingmaker succedes in my opinion as a sandbox/adventure playgound (lots of hooks), but needs a lot more work than most paths to create a coherent narrative out of what is presented.
I agree...i'm more inclined to use the modules since i don't have too much time to prepare a bunch of made-up stuff. on the other hand, I've stopped trying to guide the players directly toward the module things, and let them discover as they will.
we're experimenting with the two characters per player thing, the citybuilding, and the sandbox nature of the game. so, maybe that's too much?
Most of their visits to Restov are for resupply or to recruit people for their city. I think some of the characters are staying there in order to solidify some relationships (i've got some small guilds set up in Restov, etc.) Mostly, their city is so small and they're not willing to stop adventuring in order to take the suggested 1 year to build their city.
They are currently in Restov for a few days, preparing to head to Varnhold. I will have Jamandi come and explain to them some of the situation to the north...and how they must remove themselves from Restov, or find themselves helping to start that war too early...and she will be cutting off their support.
Meanwhile, Grigori will be starting up his mess in their capital. a few of the secondary characters are at home to deal with that mess.
great ideas from everyone...thanks so much for the input!
Have you asked them why they stay in so much contact with Restov? I'm just wondering if there's been some kind of miscommunication down the line.
i'm sure there's been lost information here and there...this groups is known for roleplaying in the moment, not necessarily keeping great notes. ha!
Also, they do know they are building a fledgling kingdom and are sort of "pre-solidifying" relations with Restov and the Swordlords. so it all kind of fits in line with the story in that way. i think that i may have missed some opportunities to strongly urge them away from relying on Restov too much as at some point they'll be cut off. Or by providing too many names of NPC's in Restov, etc.
I think that they will focus more on their own realm after this little excursion to Varnhold, and the very pointed chat with Jamandi, meanwhile dealing with Grigori's shenanagans and those damnable trolls. (already took care of the owlbear)
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As far as how they handle the storylines while running their kingdom:
They are supposed to spend 1 week per month running the kingdom. If you spend the last week of one month and the first week of the 2nd month, you get 6 week blocks to work with for adventuring. Thats what the group from Pathfinder Chronicles podcast suggested and it worked well for us as well.
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That's what my group is doing, I thought that was standard.
Maybe there's something I got wrong but looking at the map and taking into account the values given in the module for travelling a hex I wonder what's keeping them from their city for so long while adventuring; even if stringing together several quests at once?
That said, another thing I really like about this AP is the slower pace which can be achieved by incorporating the kingdom building guidelines.
No need to rush since the other side will also take their time to plan the next move. It's not in other campaigns where you cross the street and gain a level.
At the same time it's not like you loose a lot of real time needed to do all this stuff (except when your players want to); it still feels like a fast paced adventure.
@snkldr: I'd have your guild representatives etc. suggest setting up shop in the players' city to draw them away from Restov. These could also become the agents handling supply flow to and from Restov for the players, replace council members if needed etc. If you want to give your players a further incentive have the guilds pay ~25% of the BP for setting up buildings fitting the fluff.
Ruyan.
We have just started VV - and while my party haven't used Restov as much as yours have - they have had good relations with the City and some of the sword lords.
Fort off - the Fort along the road is empty and all the troops have been withdrawn, to be deployed further north. And Restov had political problems with New Stetven.
When my party turned up at Restov and went to find their favourite Sword Lord to report the disappearance of the Varnholders, hew greeted them warmly, put them up for the evening - but was really reluctant to let them out on the street - because of spies from New Stetven. he did everything he could, including sending one of his agents out to do their shopping, minor bribes, diplomacy and even minor intimidation to keep them inside.
They were told them if they were seen in Restov - by the wrong people - it could mean a war that Restov couldn't win (at the moment). and "Oh, by the way. Thanks for reporting varnhold, ther eis nothing we can do about it now. BUT - if you sort it out quietly, I might be able to find you another group of settlers (ie BP) on the quiet ...."
Or simply make travelling to Restov more difficult (yeah, teleport might soon get in the way).... Ever taken a look at continental Russia/Siberia in the Spring and Fall season (with everything getting swallwoed in mud) ? Have the area grow soggy and impassable
Alternatively, have the River at Restov flood massively, and carry away bridges, soak the marshes north and south... which again makes contact less feasible for a time.
If you feel cruel.... Have a major fire, we are taling wooden "russian style" houses here, right, (or a nasty plague ?) sweep through Restov, limiting or obliterating its resources for a certain amount of time.
Restov maybe a feasible crutch for the earlier parts, but... there will be a time to discard it to make the players focus on their own realm
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Another option is having the Swordlords send a Representative/Adviser to the PCs to deal with them. Can simply say that the Swordlords have found the PCs tiresome and cannot devote the time required to meet with their concerns left and right due to whatever political action is taking place at the time. That way the diplomat still forms that tether to Restov, but requires them to head back to their capital in order to interact with him/her.
Have you considered whether you players are actually interested in running their own kingdom? Maybe they're in Restov all the time because they're more interested in adventuring and less in nation building. Talk to them (either out of game or in-character as the Mayor/Swordlord benefactor) about whether they would prefer that responsibility to be shifted so they can get more adventuring done. The books have 'kingdom in the background' rules specifically for those kind of players.