I have a couple of question regarding mystic thurge for those in the know or have experience with them...
1) In order to meet the prerequisites for becoming a mystic thurge, can a character be a third level cleric who has a domain in magic (thus giving the character the capablility of casting a second level arcane spell) and a first level wizard AND thereby qualify for the prerequisites of being able to cast both divine and arcane 2nd level spells? If not, why not?
2) Generally speaking: What do you think of them? What were the advantages and disadvantages in your experience? Where they worthy of pursuit or are there other character classes/pretige which are more fun?
Appreciate the help.
The magic domain doesn't grant the ability to cast arcane spells. It grants a divine version of the spell magic mouth. So that trick won't work.
Strengths of the mystic theurge: versatility. You've got the spells of 2 classes to draw on.
Weaknesses: low hp, low BAB, behind by 1-2 full levels of spells available in either class, thus throwing weaker spells at the enemy. Loss of progression in class abilities (channel energy, hand of the apprentice, domain powers, etc.).
Director of Brand Strategy
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I love mystic theurges, but then again I love me some magic and the sheer number of spells a mystic theurge has at their disposal is huge. That said, they are a ton of paperwork and will always be upstaged by a full cleric or wizard when put side by side. They are best, in my experience, at buffing the party and doing non-level-dependent tasks like teleporting, scrying, etc. Their damage/healing dice are limited by the three+ character levels that aren't also caster levels and making CL checks to beat SR can get tough unless you dedicate feats/traits to getting your CL to equal or surpass your character level.
I'm sad to say it, but since Pathfinder gives so many fun abilities to the base classes, I think the Theurge is now pretty much an underpowered curiosity. It's a neat idea but I think they need to give it some more oomph to compete with pure base-classed casters.
I think of it like this: Back in 3.5, clerics and wizards didn't get much beyond their spells; therefore the Theurge offered a reasonable trade. I'd call it losing one-turn punch and some spell efficacy but gaining endurance, versatility, and efficiency.
Efficiency hasn't been mentioned yet by other folks so I'll explain it. Attack spells make a good example. Both divine and arcane magic have them, but arcane magic is clearly better at it, so there's no reason to use any of the mediocre divine versions, so one might as well save them for what divine magic is really good at.
But anyway, sadly I don't think the Mystic Theurge offers anything compelling in the face of all the side benefits the pure casters gain these days. All they get in compensation is a mediocre special ability and a decent capstone.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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1) domain in magic (thus giving the character the capablility of casting a second level arcane spell)
Magic domain doesn't grant any Arcane spells, so it wouldn't under any RAW interpretation allow you to qualify for any "2nd level arcane spellcasting" requirements.
The spellcasting requirements are pretty specific, you need 2nd levels slots.
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I'm sad to say it, but since Pathfinder gives so many fun abilities to the base classes, I think the Theurge is now pretty much an underpowered curiosity. It's a neat idea but I think they need to give it some more oomph to compete with pure base-classed casters.
I think of it like this: Back in 3.5, clerics and wizards didn't get much beyond their spells; therefore the Theurge offered a reasonable trade. I'd call it losing one-turn punch and some spell efficacy but gaining endurance, versatility, and efficiency.
Efficiency hasn't been mentioned yet by other folks so I'll explain it. Attack spells make a good example. Both divine and arcane magic have them, but arcane magic is clearly better at it, so there's no reason to use any of the mediocre divine versions, so one might as well save them for what divine magic is really good at.
But anyway, sadly I don't think the Mystic Theurge offers anything compelling in the face of all the side benefits the pure casters gain these days. All they get in compensation is a mediocre special ability and a decent capstone.
I like the ability to cast two spells simultaneously once a day at a -2 save on both.
Mind Fog + Mass Hold Person comes to mind...
Mystic Thuerge is a really really tough class to get into. You lose 3-4 levels of of casting, putting you way behind the power curve. While you start gaining a ton of spells as you progress it is extremely weak until about 3rd level and even then it's still not a very powerful class. It's capstone is pretty nice but you have to suffer through a lot of suck to make it there.
I like the ability to cast two spells simultaneously once a day at a -2 save on both.
Mind Fog + Mass Hold Person comes to mind...
It's a great capstone, no doubt. But you have to spend soo much time being in everyone's shadow to get there. My thought is most of the Mystic Theurges you see in the wild will be players who build high level characters rather than folks who play through.
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It's a great capstone, no doubt. But you have to spend soo much time being in everyone's shadow to get there. My thought is most of the Mystic Theurges you see in the wild will be players who build high level characters rather than folks who play through.I like the ability to cast two spells simultaneously once a day at a -2 save on both.
Mind Fog + Mass Hold Person comes to mind...
This is a good point. The BBEG for my campaign is a 5th Wizard/5th Cleric/10 Mystic Theurge. He has access to NO ninth level spells, but it doesn't matter, as he as more than enough access to all the level 8's he'll need. As a man obsessed with knowledge at its most basic level, it made sense that he would start out as a generalist wizard, then slowly move into the Cleric when he realized there was information missing that the Arcane could not account for.
From there, Theurge was a forgone conclusion.
However its nice because I get to make him from scratch ahead of time. There is no problems with it. By the time the players interact with him, hes at this point of progression. It certainly makes him an interesting villain, but I would HATE to try to level him up as a character. Maybe if I was playing Gestalt or something.
This is a good point. The BBEG for my campaign is a 5th Wizard/5th Cleric/10 Mystic Theurge. He has access to NO ninth level spells, but it doesn't matter, as he as more than enough access to all the level 8's he'll need. As a man obsessed with knowledge at its most basic level, it made sense that he would start out as a generalist wizard, then slowly move into the Cleric when he realized there was information missing that the Arcane could not account for.
We don't often run that high level a campaign but even a lower level MT would make a nice enemy. Isn't quite as nice without the capstone though.
A friend is taking Mystic Theurge and a ton of item creation feats in my next campaign. This will allow him to build just about anything.
Yep... got a similarly-aimed character in my group right now. Rolled fairly low abilities, has 15 Int and 16 Wis; will be focusing on item creation.
My thought is most of the Mystic Theurges you see in the wild will be players who build high level characters rather than folks who play through.
Heh, I like that turn of phrase, "in the wild," and I think you make a good point here too.
A friend is taking Mystic Theurge and a ton of item creation feats in my next campaign. This will allow him to build just about anything.
Wow, I never thought of that. Now that item creation doesn't require spending xp anymore, the Theurge as a magic item creator could be interesting.
A friend is taking Mystic Theurge and a ton of item creation feats in my next campaign. This will allow him to build just about anything.Yikes you got a one man factory on your hands. So what is the combination he is taking
It's not terribly complex. Cleric 3, Wizard 7, Mystic Theurge 10 and he's spending just about all his feats on item creation. This means the party will always have the magic items it needs at an extremely reduced price, though a few levels later than a single-class creator. Keep in mind that this is pretty beneficial since I don't really open the flood gates when it comes to buying and/or finding magic items.
I played several Mystic Theurges in 3.5, at least a couple of times because we were playing in campaigns with 3-4 people and I wanted to make sure we had access to both types of magic, and no one else wanted to be a dedicated spellcaster.
When there isn't another wizard or cleric in the group to make you realize how much you are giving up, it doesn't seem quite as bad . . . ;)
I also had the BBEG of a campaign (admittedly, a campaign that wrapped up at 7th level for the PCs) that was a Mystic Theurge, and I was surprised at how well he survived against the party. In fact, making him a Mystic Theurge seemed to make him a better balanced threat, because he had the levels going for him, but he didn't have the upper end spells that would have likely wasted the party outright.
That having been said, I'm playing a cleric right now in a Legacy of Fire game under Pathfinder RPG rules, and while I briefly toyed with the idea of taking some arcane caster levels and going Mystic Theurge (since our only arcane caster is a bard), I'm too interested in my domain progression to want to take a break from cleric.
1) domain in magic (thus giving the character the capablility of casting a second level arcane spell)Magic domain doesn't grant any Arcane spells, so it wouldn't under any RAW interpretation allow you to qualify for any "2nd level arcane spellcasting" requirements.
The spellcasting requirements are pretty specific, you need 2nd levels slots.
The MT was powerful? when did this happen!?! =P
jokes aside MT always been suboptimal BUT played right can be an amazing support class. To The OP no you HAVE to have arcane caster levels and be able to CAST spells as arcane spells. any spell granted by a divine domain, is still cast as a divine spell even if its normally arcane. Need the wizard levels, will be set back, will end up weaker then a pure caster....what you gain is amazing versatility. My MT was fun but i was never main damage, or main healer(well i was main healer but sucked at it) if your expecting to be best arcane and divine caster this class isn't for you. If your wanting a class can eventually cast almost every spell in the game... then use the MT can indeed do that!
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In an old 3.5 campaign all the other players went melee. In an attempt to stave off getting totally screwed I went Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Mystic Thurge - the hope was to give some arcane firepower and provide access to some healing.
From a metagaming perspective, he was a bit under-powered but tons of fun to play!
While I agree with you guys regarding the prerequisite issue, I have a gamer who is deadset that he can become a MT by becoming a cleric thrid level/ Wiz 1st with a domain in magic thus giving him the "ability" to cast 2nd level arcane spells (or so he says) i.e. "magic mouth". I think he is wrong!
He claims the prerequisite of "Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells." is satisfied by this magic mouth capability, via magic domain. Help me prove this cannot be done by some language in the book.
Much Thanks.
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While I agree with you guys regarding the prerequisite issue, I have a gamer who is deadset that he can become a MT by becoming a cleric thrid level/ Wiz 1st with a domain in magic thus giving him the "ability" to cast 2nd level arcane spells (or so he says) i.e. "magic mouth". I think he is wrong!
He claims the prerequisite of "Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells." is satisfied by this magic mouth capability, via magic domain. Help me prove this cannot be done by some language in the book.
Much Thanks.
How about this approach: Bards cast arcane spells, right? Cure Light Wounds is on their spell list - just because a spell is on your list doesn't mean that your class now casts whatever. Spells that are traditionally arcane on a cleric's spell list are still powered by divine providence - hence they are divine spells.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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He claims the prerequisite of "Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells." is satisfied by this magic mouth capability, via magic domain. Help me prove this cannot be done by some language in the book.
Core Rulebook, page 39: "A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list presented in Chapter 10." That seems pretty clear to me. Nowhere in the Cleric description or Cleric spell list does it describe any ability to cast arcane spells. Likewise, the Wizard class description notes that they cast arcane spells. No mention of divine.
I think DitheringFool's example of the bard's CLW is a great example of a spell that exists on both spell lists. Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Bull's Strength, etc. are also good examples.
You may also refer to the scroll/wand creation rules, which clearly state that a scroll made by a cleric is a divine scroll, while one made by a wizard is arcane. The different types of magic and their definitions pop up all over the book.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I think he is wrong! Help me prove this cannot be done by some language in the book.
He is wrong, but if he doesn't immediately see that he is wrong there will be nothing you can do short of finding a passage in a book that says "Todd you are wrong, apoligize to Bowincal" written in the book.
In short, you need to make him prove his position. He can't produce any text whatsoever that suggests that Magic Mouth is an Arcane spell for a Cleric.
I played couple MT's and one major issue not a lot of people notice at first glance, is the number of rounds you'll get to act in combat situations. It quickly becomes a juggling act.
So, you have nearly all wizard and cleric spells at your disposal. Great. Problem here being, in a typical 6 or so rounds of combat, what are you doing when? You have so many options at your disposal, but you can only do so much at once. Just because you can cast as a cleric AND a wizard, does not make you equal to a cleric AND a wizard. Round 1 you cast a buff, maybe round 2 you deal damage. A wizard and cleric could do both simultaneously. Do you heal your ally, or debuff the enemy? Know your limitations and try to plan things out ahead of time. Don't make the mistake of thinking you are both at all times, you're still just one character.
Unless you had a cohort who was a Mystic Theurge as well....
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In my experience the MT has a huge amount of advantages and disadvantages. The key is quicken spell. You need a rod or 2 to pull this off as the MT still doesn't have enough high level slots to be burning on low level spells. The most recent Theurge I DM'd for in 3.5 liked Spectral hand, Cure X wounds. Ranged healing. He was also the answer man. But there was a full cleric and a full sorcerer to do the blasting and the high level debuff/healing thing. He was the ultimate bard without the noise. I recall several combats that he all but nutralized the entire encounter not by himself but he answered the problems and let the rest of the party drop the hammer. The High level sorcerer was invisible, See invisibility then Glitterdust. That sort of thing. He never ever ever cast a spell at the enemy. Instead all of his answers were to make those around him shine even brighter.