Does that include enhancement bonuses from items? If not, you're artificially inflating the usefulness of stat-boost items, which are already on the "must-have" list for pretty much everyone. Doubling their prices would not be unreasonable, in that case.
Is my group one of the only ones that limits pre-Epic Ability Scores to 18 + racial bonus?
I assume you mean at character creation? If so, then no, you're not the only one. Since I use dice instead of point build, however, it's pretty much impossible to get higher than (18 + racial bonus). I would think that since the point build system is an alternative meant to mimic the scores generated by dice yet remove the random factor, it's common sense that an initial score can't beat (18 + racial bonus). But I don't know if that's written anywhere.
I assume you mean at character creation?
"Pre-epic" says to me "anytime before 21st level," not just "at first level," but i dunno.
I assume you mean at character creation?"Pre-epic" says to me "anytime before 21st level," not just "at first level," but i dunno.
I had assumed the OP meant the Epic ability score generation. If it's Epic Character, that's a whole different animal. Obviously, people are going to spend their ability increases in the most advantageous ways. You're going to end up with fighters with 22 Str, etc. Otherwise, why have ability increases?
That's definitely in house-rule territory. I'm pretty sure that it's even in unusual house-rule territory. It's quite common (I'd say expected) to have a wizard put his best stat (an 18 if he can) in Intelligence and then put every ability boost after that into Int.
If you showed me a 20th level wizard built with a high point buy, I'd expect an int of 23 before items and racial bonuses. That would be an initial 18 and +5 from the 5 level bonuses.
That's definitely in house-rule territory. I'm pretty sure that it's even in unusual house-rule territory. It's quite common (I'd say expected) to have a wizard put his best stat (an 18 if he can) in Intelligence and then put every ability boost after that into Int.
If you showed me a 20th level wizard built with a high point buy, I'd expect an int of 23 before items and racial bonuses. That would be an initial 18 and +5 from the 5 level bonuses.
I'd have to agree. I'd be a little ticked as a player if I had to use 5 ability ups (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th) on ability scores other than my primary. Sure it's still useful, for example a Wizard with a higher Con has better survivability, but a lot of players automatically pump those level bonuses straight into their best score. As a DM, I wouldn't try it with my players.
Is my group one of the only ones that limits pre-Epic Ability Scores to 18 + racial bonus?
I'd probably say that you are. D&D has long since scrapped the concept of a "max" ability score. Although I don't think that its a bad idea depending on the nature of the campaign. If you used the Low Fantasy or Standard Fantasy point buy to create the characters then its probably all in good balance.
Even in first edition there was the idea of scores beyond 18. That was what the 18/00 was all about. The Cavalier class was all about breaking the 18 stat barrier.
There was rules that allowed you to boost scores above 18 with multiple wishes. Second edition had more cheese to game scores past 18 but many of us old school DMs banned them since they broke the original flavor.
I personally banned the Cavalier class and ignored most of the Template cheese from second edition. Third edition threw all of that out and gave players a natural way to progress abilities.
You may consider just making it harder to boost stats above the 18 cap. Maybe putting in half point steps past 18?
Might still make for a interesting game.
Sometimes it can be fun to limit the "power" of the pc's a little bit. Of course if you have rolled an 18 that just means you'll want to put your racial mods in scores that are not so high to maximixe what you have before having to rely on those level ups.
If the DM is not limiting the monsters in the same fashion however... it could possibly be a deadly game.
I'd say the biggest problem I see with it is that it makes it impossible to cast 9th level spells unless you play a race that has a bonus to the spell stat (CHA, WIS, INT).
My group rolls dice, so the maximum stat they can have is 20 + Racial Bonus (We use the 4d6 drop lowest variant, and if you roll all 6's, you get a 20, only happened once in about 200 rolls). After that, you can put your stat bonus's anywhere you like. However, we also use a house rule that you can trade your stat boost for two feats. We get about 50/50 use of stat boosts and bonus feat choices.
Might still make for a interesting game.
Sometimes it can be fun to limit the "power" of the pc's a little bit. Of course if you have rolled an 18 that just means you'll want to put your racial mods in scores that are not so high to maximixe what you have before having to rely on those level ups.
If the DM is not limiting the monsters in the same fashion however... it could possibly be a deadly game.
Our game masters have always applied it across the board to PC, NPC, Monsters, what-have-you. 99% of the time if it applies to PCs in our games it applies to NPCs as well and vice versa.
And we never roll for attributes. It is always poit-buy and seldom the highest tier of that.
Ah ... so a controlled lower "power" game. Could indeed be fun once in awhile.
I've played a game where the players were all given "Elite Array - 15,14,13,12,10,8" to generate character stats with. This prevented any stat being higher than a 17 at 1st level and max you could get from level ups would be a 22 if you put them all in your highest stat.
We didn't have any actual "caps" for stats though so a magic item could boost this higher. They DM did moderate how much "loot" we got but if we were willing to save up for it... it was fair game.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Is my group one of the only ones that limits pre-Epic Ability Scores to 18 + racial bonus?
Yes. Considering that the following are true:
a) I have never heard of anyone anywhere limiting ability scores (even at 1st level.)
b) I don't think I have ever played a character with less than 20 in at least one ability score, and I've played characters with as much as 37 CHA before (without house rules.)
I'd say the biggest problem I see with it is that it makes it impossible to cast 9th level spells unless you play a race that has a bonus to the spell stat (CHA, WIS, INT).
My group rolls dice, so the maximum stat they can have is 20 + Racial Bonus (We use the 4d6 drop lowest variant, and if you roll all 6's, you get a 20, only happened once in about 200 rolls). After that, you can put your stat bonus's anywhere you like. However, we also use a house rule that you can trade your stat boost for two feats. We get about 50/50 use of stat boosts and bonus feat choices.
Umm... max stat for 18+Racial would be a 20. Soo... a 19 would allow 9th level spells.
Even if you only had a 16 at 1st level in your primary casting stat... you could get it to a 19 by 12th level. Well ahead of what you need to be able to cast 9th level spells.
I'd say the biggest problem I see with it is that it makes it impossible to cast 9th level spells unless you play a race that has a bonus to the spell stat (CHA, WIS, INT).
My group rolls dice, so the maximum stat they can have is 20 + Racial Bonus (We use the 4d6 drop lowest variant, and if you roll all 6's, you get a 20, only happened once in about 200 rolls). After that, you can put your stat bonus's anywhere you like. However, we also use a house rule that you can trade your stat boost for two feats. We get about 50/50 use of stat boosts and bonus feat choices.
Umm... max stat for 18+Racial would be a 20. Soo... a 19 would allow 9th level spells.
Even if you only had a 16 at 1st level in your primary casting stat... you could get it to a 19 by 12th level. Well ahead of what you need to be able to cast 9th level spells.
Uhm, no. Take an elven druid. Elves get +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con.
So maximum stats for an Elf, per the OP's post, would be 18 + racial mod.
STR : 18
DEX : 20
CON : 16
INT : 20
WIS : 18
CHA : 18
So, an Elven Druid could not cast level 9 spells, they use Wisdom, and couldn't get a 19 Wisdom under the OP's rules.
If you were referring to a human, then yes, they'd have a max of 18 across the board, with a 20 in one stat as max. A Gnome wizard on the other hand would not be able to get a 19 INT under the OP's rules, they have 18 + 0 for INT max, or 18.
This is solely to the character themself and does not include boosts from items/spells/class features/feats/ etc.
Like I said, you've just about doubled the usefulness of belts of giant strength, etc. with this rule, so it might make sense to adjust the prices on those.
I'd say the biggest problem I see with it is that it makes it impossible to cast 9th level spells unless you play a race that has a bonus to the spell stat (CHA, WIS, INT).
My group rolls dice, so the maximum stat they can have is 20 + Racial Bonus (We use the 4d6 drop lowest variant, and if you roll all 6's, you get a 20, only happened once in about 200 rolls). After that, you can put your stat bonus's anywhere you like. However, we also use a house rule that you can trade your stat boost for two feats. We get about 50/50 use of stat boosts and bonus feat choices.
Umm... max stat for 18+Racial would be a 20. Soo... a 19 would allow 9th level spells.
Even if you only had a 16 at 1st level in your primary casting stat... you could get it to a 19 by 12th level. Well ahead of what you need to be able to cast 9th level spells.
Um, by this rule your level bumps cannot raise a stat above 18 by themselves. You NEED a racial bonus to hit 19.
OP, I am curious, have you actually played to 20+ level with this rule? Seems to me that even with the rule applying to monsters/NPCs you run the risk of overpowering the party just with other abilities that assume no cap on ability scores.
I've played a game where the players were all given "Elite Array - 15,14,13,12,10,8" to generate character stats with.
Yep... that's my absolute favorite method for countless reasons, on either side of the table. Other players generally demand more variety, sadly. (720 combinations before racial adjustment apparently aren't enough...)
I don't think I have ever played a character with less than 20 in at least one ability score
Seriously, you should try it some time. (The rest of the table has to have similar attributes, of course.) The whole feel of the game is different. Challenge ratings are more accurate, too. :)
Is my group one of the only ones that limits pre-Epic Ability Scores to 18 + racial bonus?
I like it.
Sure, it curbs the extreme power curve just a bit, but it would tend to make characters broader, more generally capable.
There's also times where I see, say a wizard with an 18 (or even 20) Int, and all other stats are odd - every level stat increase goes to Int, even though they'd do *lots* of good being spread around.
So, yes, you're probably one of very few groups to do it, but I don't see any problems with it. With Books/Headbands there's no problem with being able to cast 9th level spells.
To clarify...
Including Ability Increases from Character Level and Racial Bonuses, our group does not allow Abilities to go above 18 + Racial Bonus until Level 21.
Basically it you start with your Dexterity at 20 as an elf (with a +2 racial bonus), in our group you will not be able to apply any Ability increases to Dex until level 21, you will have to assign them elsewhere to another ability.
This is solely to the character themself and does not include boosts from items/spells/class features/feats/ etc.
-Weylin
What about class features that say "gained as if by leveling advancement" such as the dragon disciple ability score increase? I am not being argumentative, just curious.
Is my group one of the only ones that limits pre-Epic Ability Scores to 18 + racial bonus?
While we never specifically stated so, my group plays like that as well. Call me old school, but it always makes me squint when I hear that your typical 7th level wizard has an INT score of at least 26 or whatever...
26; that's 8 points higher than your highest human score (pre-pathfinder that is). 8 points is the difference between average and the - again, pre-pathfinder - human pinnacle in an ability score. Somehow, I find that revolting, even for a fantasy setting.
If the impact of a stat was purely mechanical, it wouldn't matter so much. But since people keep insisting that one should roleplay a low Intelligence, or a low Wisdom score (with good reasons, since this has been encouraged from the earliest edition of D&D that I know), one should also roleplay - or at least acknowledge - these uber-high scores.
Someone with a DEX of 26 should have an unearthly grace that very few take in consideration. High INT and WIS score are just as puzzling to roleplay as low scores, except that they are necessary for a good built. More often then not, they are simply ignored.
Even the extraordinary strength of older editions didn't allow you to be easily stronger than monsters with a strength score. 18/00 was still only the STR of and ogre, which was less than a hill giant etc.
Personally, I blame the stat-boosting items more than the initial score generation, but I know where Welyn is coming from...
'findel
Is my group one of the only ones that limits pre-Epic Ability Scores to 18 + racial bonus?
Not a friend of 9th-level spells, eh?
For the record: No, I never used anything like this.
guess my group is still very used to the ability limits from 2nd edition then. Thanks for the input.
As with so many limitations from the old days, I disliked those immensely.
Is my group one of the only ones that limits pre-Epic Ability Scores to 18 + racial bonus?I'd probably say that you are. D&D has long since scrapped the concept of a "max" ability score. Although I don't think that its a bad idea depending on the nature of the campaign. If you used the Low Fantasy or Standard Fantasy point buy to create the characters then its probably all in good balance.
Actually, I'd just not grant ability increases in that case.
it always makes me squint when I hear that your typical 7th level wizard has an INT score of at least 26 or whatever...
Let's assume a starting score of 18 (though 20 isn't that far out - wizards can afford to boost their int at the expense of everything else, and there are a lot of races that can have an int bonus), plus 1 for the 4th-level boost. That puts you to 21 max. With an item, that's "just" 25 - or less if you cannot afford that +4 item.
26; that's 8 points higher than your highest human score (pre-pathfinder that is). 8 points is the difference between average and the - again, pre-pathfinder - human pinnacle in an ability score. Somehow, I find that revolting, even for a fantasy setting.
Well, it's faulty: That character himself has 21, at the very most. The rest comes from items. So it's a lot less than 8 higher than your highest human score, since every human can wear those items.
And, as I've said, 26 is far from average for level 7 (your average 7th-level character with appropriate treasure can only just afford the +4 item, and couldn't have anything else.
If the impact of a stat was purely mechanical, it wouldn't matter so much. But since people keep insisting that one should roleplay a low Intelligence, or a low Wisdom score (with good reasons, since this has been encouraged from the earliest edition of D&D that I know), one should also roleplay - or at least acknowledge - these uber-high scores.
Well, one fun part of Pathfinder is that you get to play characters that are beyond your capabilities.
You can only roleplay mental faculties that are superior to your own to a certain extent.
That's okay. If we could only play what we were ourselves, it wouldn't be roleplaying.
And I have never had a player who attempted a strength check show me he himself has that same strength. "So you want to lift that stone? Should be as heavy as the cupboard over there. If you can lift that, your character succeeds in his check." aren't words you hear in my sessions.
Personally, I blame the stat-boosting items more than the initial score generation
Yeah! What's the matter with a belt of giant strength granting you the strength of a giant?!? ;-P
I've played a game where the players were all given "Elite Array - 15,14,13,12,10,8" to generate character stats with.Yep... that's my absolute favorite method for countless reasons, on either side of the table. Other players generally demand more variety, sadly. (720 combinations before racial adjustment apparently aren't enough...)
No, they aren't. Not if they're THOSE 720 combinations.
Sometimes, I want one really high ability score at the expanse of others. Or I want two higher ability scores. I don't want to be forced to decide on which ability score is more powerful when I want two to be equally powerful
I don't think I have ever played a character with less than 20 in at least one ability scoreSeriously, you should try it some time. (The rest of the table has to have similar attributes, of course.) The whole feel of the game is different. Challenge ratings are more accurate, too. :)
Nah. Unless it's one of those cases where you need a lot of ability scores at once, I don't see why I would want to abandon relevant ability scores in favour of some that don't fit my character concept.
Of course, few characters start with a 20, and if the character never gets to be high enough level, he may never get those 20+ stats. But he would.
I've played characters with as much as 37 CHA before (without house rules.)
Depends on the scope of the adventure. Were monstrous races allowed? What level were you? What ability generation method did you use?
36 should be the maximum with standard races and level 20 max: 18 base +2 race +5 levels +6 item +5 inherent.
Only if you have a class that grants bonuses to those (like playing a dragon disciple with max strength) could you go beyond that.
For what it's worth, I personally am not a fan of the statistics (ability scores etc) having anything to do with the character's roleplay.
Well, if I have an Int 7 character discussing complex abstract philosophical principles, then something always seems a bit "off." This is especially pronounced when someone takes Int as a "dump stat" and ends up with a score of like 5: in that case, I may say as DM, "[The NPC] says a bunch of stuff, but it's confusing and you get bored and stop paying attention."
Likewise, if there's an NPC wizard with a 28 Int, I don't intentionally make him do really stupid things like "forget" that he dominated the fighter and attack him, when the party wizard is visibly about to retaliate.
Different styles I imagine Kirth. To me I prefer just leaving those on the paper as statistics. (IE: Intelligence is a statistic that represents skill points per level, intelligence based spellcasting, knowledge skills, etc) and roleplay purely according to the character's intended personality. But when I'm playing a PC, or for my PC's, they are free to be as charasmatic, intellectual, wise, or not in any or all cases as desired, based on the character concept.
Different players, too. In the past, occasionally some joker would play, for example, a human cleric, Int 4. He takes cleric as his favored class, so he gets 3 skill points/level, and the Int 4 has almost no impact whatsoever, mechanically. Then he'll roleplay the character as if he's Einstein -- in short, substitute the player's intelligence for the character's. All the benefits of high Int, but now all his other scores are that much better. Why have stats at all, then, if people pull that kind of crap? Just give everyone 18s and be done with it. So, depending on the group, sometimes stats have to count towards role-playing.
But, yeah, it comes down to different styles as well. Str gives a hard limit for lifting, and I don't want to hear a 5 Str PC's player claim that he can lift huge boulders because it fits his "character concept." If his concept involves great strength, then invest in Strength, by Crom! Likewise, if the character concept is that the character is a super-genius who can outthink the entire scientific community, it annoys me to see Intelligence listed as a "6."
Worst I ever fudged on Intelligence was was with an elven sorcerer with 10 Int and 8 Wis, who was a very good tactician. This was explicitly called out in his background, though: he was from a noble family and, before developing arcane powers and becoming the black sheep by chasing adventure, had been groomed through his childhood for a position of military leadership (high Charisma and such). He wasn't really thinking on his feet, he'd just been force-fed a rather large playbook. Riddles, puzzles, any non-military knowledge? Oh, he'd sure try, and he'd often be convinced he was right even after being shown otherwise (superior Elven mind! How dare the lesser races countermand him?) but, yeah, no.
Fact is, I literally feel guilty if I realize I've been exhibiting intelligence beyond my character. I think I started annoying that GM by repeatedly asking if I was acting too smart in fights.
And, yeah... when running games I enforce low Charisma. :)
Depends on the scope of the adventure. Were monstrous races allowed? What level were you? What ability generation method did you use?
36 should be the maximum with standard races and level 20 max: 18 base +2 race +5 levels +6 item +5 inherent.Only if you have a class that grants bonuses to those (like playing a dragon disciple with max strength) could you go beyond that.
Age can get you beyond that, at least for INT, WIS, and CHA (max of +3 more each by venerable).
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i may play a 12 int character as if they had a 14-15 int. but if my character is dumb, expect it to be exaggerated. i remember playing an unseen seer with an int score in the late 20s-early 30s. i couldn't match his intellect, even by thinking moves that would be performed by Lelouch Lamperouge, Light Yagami, or Mayuri Kurotsuchi and inspired by them. it wasn't enough. my rogue is played as if she had a 13-14 int (she has a 16) the rogue with her 8 CHA, I don't factor appearance as determined by charisma. i beleive Charisma determines only a few things, leadership, social (mildly) and negotiation skills. it does not determine appearance. not everyone can get a score dead on. do we need attribute limits? 36 is already a limit.
