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Well, I spent the afternoon trying to teach Pathfinder to my boys, ages 11, 9, and 6. I was as old as the youngest when I started playing D&D, back in the red box days. The 11 year old seemed to grasp the concept of role playing to an extent, but the other two just wanted to go around killing things. Any ideas?
Try to de-emphasise the mechanics element. Though to be honest for even the 11 year old not just to want to hack 'n' slash is damn good.
But yeah, try to make it less about numbers and options, keep the game rules stymied somewhat, and they might get to focus a little mor eon narrative. Try to use themes and ideas from stories and shows and things they like.
DF -- didn't know you were creating a new thread, so I barfed up a long meandering post in FaWTL, if you're interested.
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DF -- didn't know you were creating a new thread, so I barfed up a long meandering post in FaWTL, if you're interested.
You mean this one?
Hmm, that's pretty close to the mix I had with teaching my nephews the 3.5 version of the world's oldest rpg...and the youngest ended up being the most rp intensive, which shocked the heck out of me (I think he's just a little ham and not at all normal). How much did they get into the character gen process, as far as abilities, personality, race, skills, etc? Do you think the two youngest got the idea that you were telling a story together and then just ditched it for killing things? Or that they missed that idea?
If I remember correctly, I let the oldest just wing it, since he had played once before, and I concentrated on the two youngest ones in the prep session. We figured out how they knew each other, and came up with some backstory that they were trying to get revenge for somebody they were both connected to who had been killed. (This was all on the fly, since I had planned on running a one-on-one game for the oldest while the little guys watched a movie or something.) In any event, it was a real learning experience for me, and it seemed like investment in the character made the same difference for little people as it makes for big people.
I think a cute dmpc could be winning idea. Another dmpc possibility is a Gandalf or an Aragorn who would only step in and help at certain points, in necessary.
Yeap, that's the main of it.
Well, I spent the afternoon trying to teach Pathfinder to my boys, ages 11, 9, and 6. I was as old as the youngest when I started playing D&D, back in the red box days. The 11 year old seemed to grasp the concept of role playing to an extent, but the other two just wanted to go around killing things. Any ideas?
Give them choices about who to kill first. Make those choices relate to a larger story. Let their be in-game consequences for killing the wrong monsters.
Also, I think teaching the game to three boys -- THREE BOYS! -- at the same time may be part of it. If you get a chance to play a sidequest with one of the younger ones, it might help.
Describe things; what the swords look like, the monsters, the action. They're creating a story and getting better at what they do. Half the fun is visualizing what's happening. Good for the imagination!
Perhaps, I don't know the boys, and there's not only age issues, but personality issues--kids have just as widely ranging personalities as adults. But just to gauge from the experience I was referring to, three boys of about the same age range kept me up until 3 am to finish that session. And the game was at most equal parts combat and role-playing...I'm pretty sure it was more role-playing.
Now, some time later (6 mos, maybe?), they played a session with my adult daughter adding in a new character, and I took them through Paizo's haunted wood module (name escapes me) and the youngest who had been such an intense roll-player before was kind of distracted and goofy. Maybe I didn't gear the game as much towards his character but more to the party, maybe he's a mercurial kid, maybe a bit of both.
You might try teaching them in a pbp style of game. I'm doing the same thing with my kids since my regular group disbanded for awhile. I'm just using a word processing document, and everyone just takes turns putting their characters actions in the document.
Pbp is what has really helped me role play better. It seems that I can use my imagination better if I am writing, instead of when I'm talking, I'm a bit to analytical for my own good sometimes.
It also works for us for another reason, since the kids are all in school and with all of our other activities during the week, we don't always have time to sit down and play for an hour or more. So it allows us to keep the game going even when we are all busy. It's been a bit slow going at first but I think it will work.
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Well, I spent the afternoon trying to teach Pathfinder to my boys, ages 11, 9, and 6. I was as old as the youngest when I started playing D&D, back in the red box days. The 11 year old seemed to grasp the concept of role playing to an extent, but the other two just wanted to go around killing things. Any ideas?
Well, it makes sense that your two younger kids want to destroy everything in sight, as that was something I wanted to do in my first D&D games. Make it simple, tell them which monster are best to kill before the start of the game, and as they get older (the two younger ones) make it harder and harder.
Advice from a youth.
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I would try to give them a straight-forward goal that can be achieved through mayhem (rescue the kidnapped villagers by slaughtering the orcs!) but give them a big finale with a bit of drama (Orc chief challenges to one-on-one combat or villagers pushed in the volcano).
If you want RP then that can be part of the finale (angry one-liners from orc chief, screams of fear and cofusion from villagers) and victory (grateful villagers, Asterix style village feast at the end).
Comedy characters (Getafix style druids, Pompous lord-mayors, deranged goblin foes) can also help kids to see the fun to be had in RP.
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I guess I should take a moment and mention the party makeup. My oldest is playing a human paladin. I sold him on it when I explained it as being a sort of knight in shining armor. The 9 year old is playing a half-orc barbarian, and the youngest is playing a half-elf wizard. I have an elf cleric DMPC waiting in the wings if I need her.
I guess I should take a moment and mention the party makeup. My oldest is playing a human paladin. I sold him on it when I explained it as being a sort of knight in shining armor. The 9 year old is playing a half-orc barbarian, and the youngest is playing a half-elf wizard. I have an elf cleric DMPC waiting in the wings if I need her.
I think you might benefit from including some NPCs in your encounters for them to rescue or join forces with. And, by conversing with them, they'll find more clues and information that will help them complete the adventure. For instance, your elf cleric waiting in the wings could be someone they meet. And then take them into an undead situation and teach them mechanics of the cleric by letting the boys take turns running her.
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They might benefit from some NPCs they have to "manage" in a way. When I played the Devil Box story, our DM made sure Raspit and Chupo were a handful. We were helping them, but when we came back and they were sitting atop furniture piled on dogsleds, or when they insisted on carrying the owlbear out of the circus...well, it made for some interesting role-playing, to say the least. It's a situation where the kids can't just kill everythng, because they have a vested interest in making sure both the troublesome NPC and the townsfolk stay alive, but they can't just let it go, whether because it will damage their mission or simply because everything will erupt into chaos.
My two-cents
If you want RP then that can be part of the finale (angry one-liners from orc chief, screams of fear and cofusion from villagers) and victory (grateful villagers, Asterix style village feast at the end).
Comedy characters (Getafix style druids, Pompous lord-mayors, deranged goblin foes) can also help kids to see the fun to be had in RP.
Horribly incompetent bards...
How many of you have read the books the George Lucas and Chris Claermont wrote that were the sequals to Willow? I'm gonna stat up Elora Dannin as a half-silver dragon human bard to use in a campaign.
I tried reading the first one
What kind of dad sends an evil cleric DMPC along in the shadows to trail his kids' characters? ;P
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I am gaming with my 4 year old Daughter and my 13 year old son.
I have found my Daughter is wanting more skill based challenges and less fighting. She is Playing Emily a 4 level "witch"(wizard) with a flying broom. I have found giving her choices just like a pick your own adventure and events she can relate to like helping a princess find her lost doll or particapting in a race, We even had a county fair were the horses got loose and she had to get them back in the coral before they crushed the Prize pumpkins.
She came upon an Orc who had been stealing from farmers when she first saw I asked what she did, she said I put it to sleep he failed his save. He went to sleep she took the stuff back to the farmers and left him sleeping.
The 13 year old whenever I try to RP with gets giggly because he feels he is going to look silly.
In the same situation as Above his character attacked the Orc and almost died because he was rolling like crap and the Orc Critted twice.
Just my 2 cents
Well, it makes sense that your two younger kids want to destroy everything in sight, as that was something I wanted to do in my first D&D games.Well, I spent the afternoon trying to teach Pathfinder to my boys, ages 11, 9, and 6. I was as old as the youngest when I started playing D&D, back in the red box days. The 11 year old seemed to grasp the concept of role playing to an extent, but the other two just wanted to go around killing things. Any ideas?
I remember you entering the goblin nursery and deciding to coup-de-grace all the little baby goblins. That worried me. We had a good discussion of what "lawful good" alignment meant that time.
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Well, it makes sense that your two younger kids want to destroy everything in sight, as that was something I wanted to do in my first D&D games.Well, I spent the afternoon trying to teach Pathfinder to my boys, ages 11, 9, and 6. I was as old as the youngest when I started playing D&D, back in the red box days. The 11 year old seemed to grasp the concept of role playing to an extent, but the other two just wanted to go around killing things. Any ideas?
I remember you entering the goblin nursery and deciding to coup-de-grace all the little baby goblins. That worried me. We had a good discussion of what "lawful good" alignment meant that time.
Yeah, I had to explain to my 11 year old that Lawful Good meant that he could not attack and kill the town watch.
We have a group of 5 kids ages 8-11, there is a fair amount of hack and slash, but the kids also do a good amount of role playing. The adults really enjoy watching the kids come up with battle plans and engage in conflict resolution (between themselves). One of the funniest things is the way they go about splitting treasure. We recently had a haul where there were boots of flying, a rod of lesser quickening, and a ring of freedom of movement. What do you think was the most sought after item....yep, the boots. The adults just sat there laughing and shaking their heads. Kids are great!
Yeah, I had to explain to my 11 year old that Lawful Good meant that he could not attack and kill the town watch.
What if the town watch were evil and on take of a ruthless warlord?
I'm with your kid on this one
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Yeah, I had to explain to my 11 year old that Lawful Good meant that he could not attack and kill the town watch.What if the town watch were evil and on take of a ruthless warlord?
I'm with your kid on this one
And, how could you tell if they weren't? They could have undetectable alignment cast on them. Best to kill them just in case.
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Yeah, I had to explain to my 11 year old that Lawful Good meant that he could not attack and kill the town watch.What if the town watch were evil and on take of a ruthless warlord?
Well yes, in that case I could see them fighting. However, in this case the only thing the watch had done was order them to drop their weapons and step away from the dead bodies they were standing over.
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And, how could you tell if they weren't? They could have undetectable alignment cast on them. Best to kill them just in case.Yeah, I had to explain to my 11 year old that Lawful Good meant that he could not attack and kill the town watch.What if the town watch were evil and on take of a ruthless warlord?
I'm with your kid on this one
I see where Nerret gets it from.
We have a group of 5 kids ages 8-11, there is a fair amount of hack and slash, but the kids also do a good amount of role playing. The adults really enjoy watching the kids come up with battle plans and engage in conflict resolution (between themselves). One of the funniest things is the way they go about splitting treasure. We recently had a haul where there were boots of flying, a rod of lesser quickening, and a ring of freedom of movement. What do you think was the most sought after item....yep, the boots. The adults just sat there laughing and shaking their heads. Kids are great!
Boots of Flying? You mean WINGED boots?! In that case, you can laugh and shake your head at me as well. I don't care if winged boots are technically of less value than the other two items. The ability to fly, even for 5 minutes, can completely change an encounter, allowing a PC to defeat otherwise unbeatable opponents; I've seen it happen!
A rod of lesser quickening is of no use to a non-spellcaster. And even when playing a spellcaster, I've never been too fond of quickening spells. A spellcaster quickly runs out of spells anyway, and has to be benchwarmer for the rest of the game day. Quickening just lets you burn out twice as quickly.
Freedom of Movement is great against paralysis and grapple checks, but is usually useless.
So I fail to see the humor.
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If you wanted to teach them a lesson, allow their characters to kill the townspeople then tell them they have been arrested for murder.
But what I would do is just give them more combat heavy encounters to allow them to give vent to their violent tendencies. Hack and Slash is the aspect of the game young children gravitate towards first. The Goodman modules, as you surmised, might be the best if you want to use prepublished encounters.
Well yes, in that case I could see them fighting. However, in this case the only thing the watch had done was order them to drop their weapons and step away from the dead bodies they were standing over.Yeah, I had to explain to my 11 year old that Lawful Good meant that he could not attack and kill the town watch.What if the town watch were evil and on take of a ruthless warlord?
those bastards
they had it coming
Boots of Flying? You mean WINGED boots?! In that case, you can laugh and shake your head at me as well. I don't care if winged boots are technically of less value than the other two items. The ability to fly, even for 5 minutes, can completely change an encounter, allowing a PC to defeat otherwise unbeatable opponents; I've seen it happen!
A rod of lesser quickening is of no use to a non-spellcaster. And even when playing a spellcaster, I've never been too fond of quickening spells. A spellcaster quickly runs out of spells anyway, and has to be benchwarmer for the rest of the game day. Quickening just lets you burn out twice as quickly.
Freedom of Movement is great against paralysis and grapple checks, but is usually useless.
So I fail to see the humor.
Yeah, you are correct, I meant winged boots, my bad. The party has numerous things giving them the ability to fly, this was really a surplus item. Yes, it would have been nice to have, but to see them agonize over who was going to get them...that was what was funny.
I disagree with your opinion concerning the use of quickening and freedom of movement.
Did not want to get a debate going, just wanted to relate a experience that I found humorous.
Peace
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Well yes, in that case I could see them fighting. However, in this case the only thing the watch had done was order them to drop their weapons and step away from the dead bodies they were standing over.Yeah, I had to explain to my 11 year old that Lawful Good meant that he could not attack and kill the town watch.What if the town watch were evil and on take of a ruthless warlord?
those bastards
they had it coming
Well the one did. He attacked the party when they interupted him killing the other person.
To JFK68:
Yeah, peace. I didn't realize that the party had numerous things giving them the ability to fly. That does change things. I'd be very curious to hear your opinion concerning the use of quickening and freedom of movement, but I guess this isn't the thread for it.
Really, I wasn't trying to flame you or anything. Just stating my opinion.
Well the one did. He attacked the party when they interupted him killing the other person.Well yes, in that case I could see them fighting. However, in this case the only thing the watch had done was order them to drop their weapons and step away from the dead bodies they were standing over.Yeah, I had to explain to my 11 year old that Lawful Good meant that he could not attack and kill the town watch.What if the town watch were evil and on take of a ruthless warlord?
those bastards
they had it coming
see, your kid's a natural
Well, I spent the afternoon trying to teach Pathfinder to my boys, ages 11, 9, and 6. I was as old as the youngest when I started playing D&D, back in the red box days. The 11 year old seemed to grasp the concept of role playing to an extent, but the other two just wanted to go around killing things. Any ideas?
I am currently playing with my 5 years-old son, and a couple years back I played 2E AD&D with a bunch of 10-11 years old boys. My most recent 'regular player' started with me when he was 13 (which is more or less when I picked the game-up myself). To say the least, there is a HUGE difference in gameplay between these three age groups that I experienced.
All three groups had its own set of "challenges". The difference between the 10-11 and 13 was colossal although the age gap was only 2 years (but perhaps your 11 and 9 are closer). Morality was indeed a big issue with the 10-11s...
I would suggest giving the setting in full (perhaps tone the 'dark aspects' down a bit) but the rules in parts. The 6 years old will need a lot of help to keep-up with challenges fitting for the older boys. You may also have to watch for a feeling of unfairness about the younger sibling (either favoring the youngest too much or not enough). Giving interesting content for all age groups may or may not be difficult since they are all brothers (the youngest may have not been interested, but may be pulled-in by the enthusiasm of his brothers).
In other words, you may have enough on your hands without the complexity of Pathfinder rules, which are after all, much more complete and more complex than the Red-box OD&D set...
'findel
Reading my last message, it feels like I'm suggesting not to use Pathfinder rules. That's not quite what I meant.
What I mean by using part of the rules is to purposefully leave some things out for a while, at least until you get things going. You can cut superficially (leaving some spells out) or go into more restrictive options (only give access to a certain list of spells). The game can be played for a while without satellite rules such as sunder, disarm and feint. Rogue talents can be limited, imposed or simply ignored without hurting a game that is geared toward a group of 11, 9 and 6 years old boys. And so forth...
my 2 coppers
'findel
I don't think a game like dnd works that well for kids under 9. It's too complicated, and a lot of kids won't have developed the attention span and concentration required to sit and play an rpg. I've just started teaching a group of grade 5s dnd. We made some characters last week, and Friday will be our first game session. They are about the minimum age I'd want to run the game with.
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I don't think a game like dnd works that well for kids under 9. It's too complicated, and a lot of kids won't have developed the attention span and concentration required to sit and play an rpg.
Balderdash and Piffle. :)
I told my four kids they could play DnD with me when they learned to read.
They are currently between the ages of 9 and 13. The youngest has been playing since she was 4 or 5 and the oldest since he was 5 or 6. Granted, playing with children is a different experience than playing with adults but it is completely doable and works just fine so long as the DM knows what he is doing.
As for attention spans, the only reason that so many children, IMO, have such short attention spans is because they have been coddled by elders who don't force them to develop the necessary self discipline. Low expectations leads to poor performance. YMMV of course but I've never had a great problem with my children and their attention spans.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I don't think a game like dnd works that well for kids under 9. It's too complicated, and a lot of kids won't have developed the attention span and concentration required to sit and play an rpg.Balderdash and Piffle. :)
I told my four kids they could play DnD with me when they learned to read.
It's possible that our kids are unusual, Wicht. (It's possible. Just look at their dads.) I found Nerrat too young to play at age 5 but by 6 he was fine.
I agree though. The challenges that D&D provides build attention span and concentration by giving them things to pay attention too and concentrate on.
"You'll play your D&D and you'll like it, so help me!"
"Junior, no dinner until you've finished your character generation!"
"Are you taking notes on this adventure?"
There is a deeper knowledge than may be acquired through technological means... ~^
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"You'll play your D&D and you'll like it, so help me!"
How did you know? :P
One thing that I do find sometimes difficult about being both a Dungeon Master and a Father at the same time is balancing fun and discipline. To be honest, one thing I try not to allow my kids to do is start a game (or a project) with me that they don't finish. Which means that while those exact words have never left my mouth, I have made them stick it out when things got a little rough. Not that I ever forced them to start a game. But once they are in it, they have to play until everyone is done. Not that this is as big a problem anymore. Though with young children, a four hour session is generally too long. Not because they get bored but because they get too mentally tired. I tend to try to aim for a 2-3 hour session at the moment and when they were younger it was 2 hours tops.
I also discovered when I play with four young children that it helped to make some permanent rules concerning proper gaming ettiquette. Two in particular:
1. "Only one person can talk at a time and the when the Dungeon Master is talking he's the One."
2. "Never roll your dice until the DM asks you to roll them."
For a while I made them recite these before every session. But its paid off and now I mostly don't have to remind them.
One final thought on DMing children. The younger they are, the more you need to make them aware of their options. When DMing adults, I always lay out the scene and ask the open ended question, "So what do your characters do?" For young children, its often better to ask them, "Do you want to attack, or run or, use that magic potion you just picked up?" By making their most obvious choices clear you help keep the game running along while also showing them how to form a strategic thought process.
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I also discovered when I play with four young children that it helped to make some permanent rules concerning proper gaming ettiquette. Two in particular:
1. "Only one person can talk at a time and the when the Dungeon Master is talking he's the One."
2. "Never roll your dice until the DM asks you to roll them."
For a while I made them recite these before every session. But its paid off and now I mostly don't have to remind them.
Pretty good advice in your post Wicht, I'll try to remember that for when I have kids. But I just wanted to point out the bolded line and ask...
Does that apply to grownups too? I have this automatic habbit of randomly rolling my dice ono the table (not looking at them mind, just rolling and scooping) while watching the rest of the action attentively.
The rule about the dice was for a two-fold reason. One, it partially was to stave off the potential distraction that is the dice. We've all built towers with dice and rolled them absently. This is fine in small doses but if you have four children more interested in dice stacking than the game you don't have a game so it was partially to help instill some self discipline there. But it was mainly a rule I instituted to prevent an insidious form of cheating I had noticed a couple of them trying. That is the trick of rolling a good number just prior to being asked and 'keeping' it (whereas if a bad number is rolled you would pretend you were just absently playing with the dice.) By laying out the ground rule it was possible to prevent the problem without have to accuse any one child of cheating. The rules were entirely for the purpose of training and discipline so that when they gamed with other people (like at a convention) I wouldn't be ashamed to acknowledge them as mine. :)
Having said that, I figure adults should already have enough decorum that I don't, as a DM, have to police their table manners or their attempts to cheat. I've never had to lay out similar ground rules for adults before and am not sure I would want to game with adults where it was necessary to do so. So no - no such rules against playing with the dice for grownups. Like I said, I've done it myself.
CEO
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But it was mainly a rule I instituted to prevent an insidious form of cheating I had noticed a couple of them trying. That is the trick of rolling a good number just prior to being asked and 'keeping' it (whereas if a bad number is rolled you would pretend you were just absently playing with the dice.)
I have a sixty-something year old in my game group that does the same thing. :) Guess it isn't just kids!
-Lisa
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But it was mainly a rule I instituted to prevent an insidious form of cheating I had noticed a couple of them trying. That is the trick of rolling a good number just prior to being asked and 'keeping' it (whereas if a bad number is rolled you would pretend you were just absently playing with the dice.)I have a sixty-something year old in my game group that does the same thing. :) Guess it isn't just kids!
-Lisa
+1